BRING BACK THE BRUSHES!!!
09-13-2010, 08:53 AM
#46
+1. We are only a couple races into our season but we have been running 17.5 no timing for touring and it seems to be a good combination of not overly fast for a new driver and fast enough to keep the experienced racers awake. So far the races have been a lot cleaner and the cars are coming out better in the end also. The good drivers still win and the newer drivers have something to shoot for. Mainly everybody seems to be having a good time and we are not wasting time arguing about what rules to run. Maybe we'll have to tweak things at the end of the season but this early into the season is a little early to know whether the ROAR proposed rules are a failure or not.
09-13-2010, 08:55 AM
#47
I just laugh at these threads.....
I am not advocating switching back either, I cut enough damn comms on crawler motors.....but like I said 4+ years ago, we weren't going to solve anything.....just shift stuff from one thing to another.
I went to my first RC race in 2 years......I got to watch 5+ guys switch motors because of overheating issues or they simply weren't fast....I got to watch one of my former drivers, spend over 30 minutes switching a motor and reprogamming his ESC.....30 minutes to change a motor? Really? Wasn't this supposed to be the time he got to save from a brushed motor so he could be tuning his chassis? I could of completely rebuilt and reinstalled any brushed motor in that time, probably 10 minutes less...
And I dunno how much its saving us.....I just read a thread over on hobbytalk for an oval race where people were all buying new speedos at the event just to be fast. I've been racing for 23+ years......and I can't ever remember someone buying a new speedo at event to "go faster"......
So while we leave our lathes at home now.....and all those little brushed tools.......now we got rotor checkers, can meters, and run devices.....Dynos, yeah those are still here too....just converted to run brushless....just wait till Fantom and CE both release the new brushless dynos they have in the works......we got graded rotors too....good stuff, I thought these things were all the same? Pretty cool that they cost as much as a tuned stock from EA, Putnam, Express or Brood did....
And a blinking light is our tech that its in spec mode? So what if I can get it to blink but still be a timing ramp profile? Is there gonna be a software tech at the tech booth to analyze it? At most races, the tech guys have trouble measuring ride height....
Like I said, I am not interested in switching back either......I've been having fun tinkering with these....I like the new ROAR rules too, not a single thing that says a 10.5, 13.5, 17.5, or 21.5 can't be modified.....at least that I can find. Just no intermixing parts from other motors.
And yes, I know I am a criminal......if you feel the need to point that out to debate with me, then so be it....
Later EddieO
I am not advocating switching back either, I cut enough damn comms on crawler motors.....but like I said 4+ years ago, we weren't going to solve anything.....just shift stuff from one thing to another.
I went to my first RC race in 2 years......I got to watch 5+ guys switch motors because of overheating issues or they simply weren't fast....I got to watch one of my former drivers, spend over 30 minutes switching a motor and reprogamming his ESC.....30 minutes to change a motor? Really? Wasn't this supposed to be the time he got to save from a brushed motor so he could be tuning his chassis? I could of completely rebuilt and reinstalled any brushed motor in that time, probably 10 minutes less...
And I dunno how much its saving us.....I just read a thread over on hobbytalk for an oval race where people were all buying new speedos at the event just to be fast. I've been racing for 23+ years......and I can't ever remember someone buying a new speedo at event to "go faster"......
So while we leave our lathes at home now.....and all those little brushed tools.......now we got rotor checkers, can meters, and run devices.....Dynos, yeah those are still here too....just converted to run brushless....just wait till Fantom and CE both release the new brushless dynos they have in the works......we got graded rotors too....good stuff, I thought these things were all the same? Pretty cool that they cost as much as a tuned stock from EA, Putnam, Express or Brood did....
And a blinking light is our tech that its in spec mode? So what if I can get it to blink but still be a timing ramp profile? Is there gonna be a software tech at the tech booth to analyze it? At most races, the tech guys have trouble measuring ride height....
Like I said, I am not interested in switching back either......I've been having fun tinkering with these....I like the new ROAR rules too, not a single thing that says a 10.5, 13.5, 17.5, or 21.5 can't be modified.....at least that I can find. Just no intermixing parts from other motors.
And yes, I know I am a criminal......if you feel the need to point that out to debate with me, then so be it....
Later EddieO
09-13-2010, 09:10 AM
#49
Unfortunately the problems with racing now have less to do with the classes and more to do with societal issues we have today. Kids don't play outside as much as they used to. Instead they spend most of their time on console games. The instant gratification they get that they don't have to spend a lot of money on support equipment for and have no maintenance on is hard for outdoor, equipment intensive hobbies to compete with. Most if not all activities like ours are seeing declines in participation as well. Paintball is suffering just as bad if not worse.
So all this talk of changes to increase participation like going back to brushed, limited profiles and such will help only to consolidate what racers we have into fewer classes.
So all this talk of changes to increase participation like going back to brushed, limited profiles and such will help only to consolidate what racers we have into fewer classes.
09-13-2010, 09:11 AM
#50
The fix is simple at local level. Take boost\timing out of the equation and only offer 2 classes for TC:
1) Stock (17.5)
2) Open (open esc, open motor).
At the big races there are going to be those filler classes to maximize profit, but there is no way around this.
1) Stock (17.5)
2) Open (open esc, open motor).
At the big races there are going to be those filler classes to maximize profit, but there is no way around this.
Last edited by Apex; 09-13-2010 at 09:28 AM.
09-13-2010, 09:23 AM
#52
Trying to solve everything with "make everyone run open mod" is just as stupid as bringing back brushed motors.
What's equally as stupid is that there's still no restriction on motors.
Every form of racing, even at it's top level, has a restriction on motors. Even NHRA Top Fuel does. Why are electric R/C cars so different? Why is mod treated as some Divine Entity that can't be altered or eliminated?
I've mentioned this over and over again. The problem is that we've increased the size of the "fuel tank" nearly 5X since the rules for electric racing were created in the 70s.
Imagine how fast the onroad nitro cars would go if we increased their fuel tank capacity by 5X, and said "put in the biggest engine you can to use it all up in 5 minutes".
I couldn't give a crap about the 8 people in this country that can handle a mod touring car or 1/12th scale and what they want to race. They don't pay for most of their equipment and/or travel anyway, and we nimrods (who basically fund it) just sit around and let them dictate what gets run.
What's equally as stupid is that there's still no restriction on motors.
Every form of racing, even at it's top level, has a restriction on motors. Even NHRA Top Fuel does. Why are electric R/C cars so different? Why is mod treated as some Divine Entity that can't be altered or eliminated?
I've mentioned this over and over again. The problem is that we've increased the size of the "fuel tank" nearly 5X since the rules for electric racing were created in the 70s.
Imagine how fast the onroad nitro cars would go if we increased their fuel tank capacity by 5X, and said "put in the biggest engine you can to use it all up in 5 minutes".
I couldn't give a crap about the 8 people in this country that can handle a mod touring car or 1/12th scale and what they want to race. They don't pay for most of their equipment and/or travel anyway, and we nimrods (who basically fund it) just sit around and let them dictate what gets run.
The Mod guys were not breaking, hitting stuff, or appearing as though they were fish out of water. All the mod guys drove great and always within their abilities. Sure some were faster than others but this was no different for the other TC classes.
When people race mod they can be satisfied knowing that their speed is directly related to their abilities rather than whether or not they had a fast or slow motor, the right ESC and program, and the perfect gear ratio.
09-13-2010, 09:58 AM
#53
I have been to plenty of races where this is not the case. Some guys are pinballs in stock.
I do get that it all could be sorted out at big races. It's definitely not workable at most club or local facilities. The thing is though, nobody is going to the big race to race open if they know they can't handle it and they will be in the U main. Everybody will jump on here and say "well at Cleveland in 1991 they went down to a double z main in mod". The cars were also, in today's terms, slow as hell. I found a car action with the 1992 Cleveland race, and if you average the laps, mod went 11.1 seconds a lap, and stock went 12.1. I found the 2008 results, mod was going 8.8, stock (17.5, without all the boost) 9.9. 2 seconds a lap is huge, not to mention the stock cars are over a second a lap faster than mod was.
There's a point at which normal humans can't handle any more. God bless you if you can, but it just narrows the number of people who will be racing.
I do get that it all could be sorted out at big races. It's definitely not workable at most club or local facilities. The thing is though, nobody is going to the big race to race open if they know they can't handle it and they will be in the U main. Everybody will jump on here and say "well at Cleveland in 1991 they went down to a double z main in mod". The cars were also, in today's terms, slow as hell. I found a car action with the 1992 Cleveland race, and if you average the laps, mod went 11.1 seconds a lap, and stock went 12.1. I found the 2008 results, mod was going 8.8, stock (17.5, without all the boost) 9.9. 2 seconds a lap is huge, not to mention the stock cars are over a second a lap faster than mod was.
There's a point at which normal humans can't handle any more. God bless you if you can, but it just narrows the number of people who will be racing.
09-13-2010, 10:19 AM
#54
Tech Master
iTrader: (19)
I have been to plenty of races where this is not the case. Some guys are pinballs in stock.
I do get that it all could be sorted out at big races. It's definitely not workable at most club or local facilities. The thing is though, nobody is going to the big race to race open if they know they can't handle it and they will be in the U main. Everybody will jump on here and say "well at Cleveland in 1991 they went down to a double z main in mod". The cars were also, in today's terms, slow as hell. I found a car action with the 1992 Cleveland race, and if you average the laps, mod went 11.1 seconds a lap, and stock went 12.1. I found the 2008 results, mod was going 8.8, stock (17.5, without all the boost) 9.9. 2 seconds a lap is huge, not to mention the stock cars are over a second a lap faster than mod was.
There's a point at which normal humans can't handle any more. God bless you if you can, but it just narrows the number of people who will be racing.
I do get that it all could be sorted out at big races. It's definitely not workable at most club or local facilities. The thing is though, nobody is going to the big race to race open if they know they can't handle it and they will be in the U main. Everybody will jump on here and say "well at Cleveland in 1991 they went down to a double z main in mod". The cars were also, in today's terms, slow as hell. I found a car action with the 1992 Cleveland race, and if you average the laps, mod went 11.1 seconds a lap, and stock went 12.1. I found the 2008 results, mod was going 8.8, stock (17.5, without all the boost) 9.9. 2 seconds a lap is huge, not to mention the stock cars are over a second a lap faster than mod was.
There's a point at which normal humans can't handle any more. God bless you if you can, but it just narrows the number of people who will be racing.
09-13-2010, 10:39 AM
#55
Great answer mike, but the fact if the matter is TC has been on the decline for the last couple years. So much so ROAR is entertaining the idea of not having an electric asphalt nats in 2011. We can't use the economy as an excuse any more. Go to any 1/10 or 1/8 off road event and turnouts are pretty big. Look locally at Vineland labor day weekend. There is a reason they are getting big turnouts and onroad electric TC is not. Just trying to get some thoughts out there on the matter... Cause when I talk to people in the pits I am not the only one thinking it. But might be one of the only ones asking about it in a forum like this...
Lack of good, cheap RTR cars are killing onroad, look how many posts on here with people asking "I just bought this drift car, can I race it?" Tracks need to have something in a box people can walk in, charge and race, and it needs to look like a real car.
09-13-2010, 11:30 AM
#56
Tech Master
The real fact of the matter is, the cars are too damned fast for most. That is why on-road (especially TC) is on the decline. On-road is harder to drive than off road, it's a fact for me at least (I drive both). Add to that it's now faster than the limits of most peoples reflexes (we now drive to rhythem, not what we see), and it's a dead-cert for failure.
Brushed mod was fsater than most people coming through the ranks could manage. People haven't gotten "faster" in general over the last few years, but the stock-cars are now as fast as the cars that only a select few could race 5 years ago.
Brushed mod was fsater than most people coming through the ranks could manage. People haven't gotten "faster" in general over the last few years, but the stock-cars are now as fast as the cars that only a select few could race 5 years ago.
09-13-2010, 12:24 PM
#57
http://www.redrc.net/2010/09/speed-p...rs/#more-35135
This SP car looks like a good formula for a beginner car. I was hoping to see some of the blast premount tires around by now, but haven't seen much feedback if they last.
This SP car looks like a good formula for a beginner car. I was hoping to see some of the blast premount tires around by now, but haven't seen much feedback if they last.
09-13-2010, 12:49 PM
#58
I am not one to advocate bringing back the brushed motors, but there should be an emphasis in cleaning up the current classes that are currently on the docket. In my opinion, I feel that the classes should be as follows:
Amateur stock - 21.5/25.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned
Stock - 17.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned
Pro/Super Stock - 13.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 25% manufacturer sponsorship
Mod - 8.5/10.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 50% manufacturer sponsorship
Super Mod - 7.5 to lowest wind brushless, open ESCs, full factory sponsorship
This is a way to keep the sponsored guys from running in the amateur classes and hopefully a way for the amatuers to work their way up (a ladder of progression). Now, if an amatuer wants to go for broke and run with the big boys, they can have at it. But, what you want is to keep the guys with partial paid rides and tire/battery/motor/ESC out of what should be the developmental classes.
Amateur stock - 21.5/25.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned
Stock - 17.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned
Pro/Super Stock - 13.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 25% manufacturer sponsorship
Mod - 8.5/10.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 50% manufacturer sponsorship
Super Mod - 7.5 to lowest wind brushless, open ESCs, full factory sponsorship
This is a way to keep the sponsored guys from running in the amateur classes and hopefully a way for the amatuers to work their way up (a ladder of progression). Now, if an amatuer wants to go for broke and run with the big boys, they can have at it. But, what you want is to keep the guys with partial paid rides and tire/battery/motor/ESC out of what should be the developmental classes.
09-13-2010, 12:51 PM
#59
I am not one to advocate bringing back the brushed motors, but there should be an emphasis in cleaning up the current classes that are currently on the docket. In my opinion, I feel that the classes should be as follows:
Amateur stock - 21.5/25.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned
Stock - 17.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned
Pro/Super Stock - 13.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 25% manufacturer sponsorship
Mod - 8.5/10.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 50% manufacturer sponsorship
Super Mod - 7.5 to lowest wind brushless, open ESCs, full factory sponsorship
This is a way to keep the sponsored guys from running in the amateur classes and hopefully a way for the amatuers to work their way up (a ladder of progression). Now, if an amatuer wants to go for broke and run with the big boys, they can have at it. But, what you want is to keep the guys with partial paid rides and tire/battery/motor/ESC out of what should be the developmental classes.
Amateur stock - 21.5/25.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned
Stock - 17.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned
Pro/Super Stock - 13.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 25% manufacturer sponsorship
Mod - 8.5/10.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 50% manufacturer sponsorship
Super Mod - 7.5 to lowest wind brushless, open ESCs, full factory sponsorship
This is a way to keep the sponsored guys from running in the amateur classes and hopefully a way for the amatuers to work their way up (a ladder of progression). Now, if an amatuer wants to go for broke and run with the big boys, they can have at it. But, what you want is to keep the guys with partial paid rides and tire/battery/motor/ESC out of what should be the developmental classes.
09-13-2010, 01:12 PM
#60
5 classes for touring car? Wow...
I think the main thing a lot of people need to get over is the "I wanna be in the A main too" syndrome.....and race directors just fall for it constantly by creating all these expert, sportsman, masters, etc classes...
Multiple classes can somewhat function at a big race.
The other flaw in the idea is trying to keep track of sponsorships.....I proposed a similar system, which would of needed all the companies on board.....good luck with that. In the effort to win at all costs, rules will be bent.....and often.
Later EddieO
I think the main thing a lot of people need to get over is the "I wanna be in the A main too" syndrome.....and race directors just fall for it constantly by creating all these expert, sportsman, masters, etc classes...
Multiple classes can somewhat function at a big race.
The other flaw in the idea is trying to keep track of sponsorships.....I proposed a similar system, which would of needed all the companies on board.....good luck with that. In the effort to win at all costs, rules will be bent.....and often.
Later EddieO