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Old 09-13-2010, 09:53 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by MatsNorway View Post
ROAR made some rules about a new class that probihbits turbo/boost and timing.

To verify this the esc had a blinking light.

This was showed on a LRP esc.

dunno why no one mentions it in treads like these.

I must have forgotten something.
+1. We are only a couple races into our season but we have been running 17.5 no timing for touring and it seems to be a good combination of not overly fast for a new driver and fast enough to keep the experienced racers awake. So far the races have been a lot cleaner and the cars are coming out better in the end also. The good drivers still win and the newer drivers have something to shoot for. Mainly everybody seems to be having a good time and we are not wasting time arguing about what rules to run. Maybe we'll have to tweak things at the end of the season but this early into the season is a little early to know whether the ROAR proposed rules are a failure or not.
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:55 AM   #47
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I just laugh at these threads.....

I am not advocating switching back either, I cut enough damn comms on crawler motors.....but like I said 4+ years ago, we weren't going to solve anything.....just shift stuff from one thing to another.

I went to my first RC race in 2 years......I got to watch 5+ guys switch motors because of overheating issues or they simply weren't fast....I got to watch one of my former drivers, spend over 30 minutes switching a motor and reprogamming his ESC.....30 minutes to change a motor? Really? Wasn't this supposed to be the time he got to save from a brushed motor so he could be tuning his chassis? I could of completely rebuilt and reinstalled any brushed motor in that time, probably 10 minutes less...

And I dunno how much its saving us.....I just read a thread over on hobbytalk for an oval race where people were all buying new speedos at the event just to be fast. I've been racing for 23+ years......and I can't ever remember someone buying a new speedo at event to "go faster"......

So while we leave our lathes at home now.....and all those little brushed tools.......now we got rotor checkers, can meters, and run devices.....Dynos, yeah those are still here too....just converted to run brushless....just wait till Fantom and CE both release the new brushless dynos they have in the works......we got graded rotors too....good stuff, I thought these things were all the same? Pretty cool that they cost as much as a tuned stock from EA, Putnam, Express or Brood did....

And a blinking light is our tech that its in spec mode? So what if I can get it to blink but still be a timing ramp profile? Is there gonna be a software tech at the tech booth to analyze it? At most races, the tech guys have trouble measuring ride height....

Like I said, I am not interested in switching back either......I've been having fun tinkering with these....I like the new ROAR rules too, not a single thing that says a 10.5, 13.5, 17.5, or 21.5 can't be modified.....at least that I can find. Just no intermixing parts from other motors.

And yes, I know I am a criminal......if you feel the need to point that out to debate with me, then so be it....

Later EddieO
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:02 AM   #48
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I don't think a tax beef with the government is that big a deal. At least you didn't stick a gun in somebody's face a rob them, or kill them. There are worse things eddie...
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:10 AM   #49
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Unfortunately the problems with racing now have less to do with the classes and more to do with societal issues we have today. Kids don't play outside as much as they used to. Instead they spend most of their time on console games. The instant gratification they get that they don't have to spend a lot of money on support equipment for and have no maintenance on is hard for outdoor, equipment intensive hobbies to compete with. Most if not all activities like ours are seeing declines in participation as well. Paintball is suffering just as bad if not worse.

So all this talk of changes to increase participation like going back to brushed, limited profiles and such will help only to consolidate what racers we have into fewer classes.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:11 AM   #50
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The fix is simple at local level. Take boost\timing out of the equation and only offer 2 classes for TC:

1) Stock (17.5)
2) Open (open esc, open motor).

At the big races there are going to be those filler classes to maximize profit, but there is no way around this.

Last edited by Apex; 09-13-2010 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:11 AM   #51
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post.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:23 AM   #52
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Trying to solve everything with "make everyone run open mod" is just as stupid as bringing back brushed motors.

What's equally as stupid is that there's still no restriction on motors.

Every form of racing, even at it's top level, has a restriction on motors. Even NHRA Top Fuel does. Why are electric R/C cars so different? Why is mod treated as some Divine Entity that can't be altered or eliminated?

I've mentioned this over and over again. The problem is that we've increased the size of the "fuel tank" nearly 5X since the rules for electric racing were created in the 70s.

Imagine how fast the onroad nitro cars would go if we increased their fuel tank capacity by 5X, and said "put in the biggest engine you can to use it all up in 5 minutes".

I couldn't give a crap about the 8 people in this country that can handle a mod touring car or 1/12th scale and what they want to race. They don't pay for most of their equipment and/or travel anyway, and we nimrods (who basically fund it) just sit around and let them dictate what gets run.
I think the IIC pretty much showed that more than 8 guys can run Mod TC. The separation between TQ and #29 in Mod, SS, and Stock TC was just about 3 laps give or take a second or two in all three.

The Mod guys were not breaking, hitting stuff, or appearing as though they were fish out of water. All the mod guys drove great and always within their abilities. Sure some were faster than others but this was no different for the other TC classes.

When people race mod they can be satisfied knowing that their speed is directly related to their abilities rather than whether or not they had a fast or slow motor, the right ESC and program, and the perfect gear ratio.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:58 AM   #53
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I have been to plenty of races where this is not the case. Some guys are pinballs in stock.

I do get that it all could be sorted out at big races. It's definitely not workable at most club or local facilities. The thing is though, nobody is going to the big race to race open if they know they can't handle it and they will be in the U main. Everybody will jump on here and say "well at Cleveland in 1991 they went down to a double z main in mod". The cars were also, in today's terms, slow as hell. I found a car action with the 1992 Cleveland race, and if you average the laps, mod went 11.1 seconds a lap, and stock went 12.1. I found the 2008 results, mod was going 8.8, stock (17.5, without all the boost) 9.9. 2 seconds a lap is huge, not to mention the stock cars are over a second a lap faster than mod was.

There's a point at which normal humans can't handle any more. God bless you if you can, but it just narrows the number of people who will be racing.
Like McSmoothe said, and I think something you over looked. Back then you ran much lower capacity cells than what is available now, so, although the speed may show as slower the determining factor was that you still had to gear to make the full 8 minute run without dumping, which now, has been all but eliminated. Unfortunately even limiting the capacity of the 1s now to get the gearing game for run time back in the picture is not possible as dumping the Lipo pretty much wrecks the pack, where back then you could just recharge it and re-use it.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:19 AM   #54
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I have been to plenty of races where this is not the case. Some guys are pinballs in stock.

I do get that it all could be sorted out at big races. It's definitely not workable at most club or local facilities. The thing is though, nobody is going to the big race to race open if they know they can't handle it and they will be in the U main. Everybody will jump on here and say "well at Cleveland in 1991 they went down to a double z main in mod". The cars were also, in today's terms, slow as hell. I found a car action with the 1992 Cleveland race, and if you average the laps, mod went 11.1 seconds a lap, and stock went 12.1. I found the 2008 results, mod was going 8.8, stock (17.5, without all the boost) 9.9. 2 seconds a lap is huge, not to mention the stock cars are over a second a lap faster than mod was.

There's a point at which normal humans can't handle any more. God bless you if you can, but it just narrows the number of people who will be racing.
If the few that run mod want it to become the huge class it was before it will have to be slow enought for a MAJORITY of regular joe's to race. Right now 17.5 seems to be fast enough for regular joes some compromise will have to be done to make Mod the premier class it once was. I'm not talking just about the "Big" races, I'm talking about the club racing that is the backbone of the industry. Many of the Mod races locally for me end up with many breaking out or not completing their run. Kind of sad since back then when we were running 10 turns we could get 10 of 10 to finish thier runs.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:39 AM   #55
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Great answer mike, but the fact if the matter is TC has been on the decline for the last couple years. So much so ROAR is entertaining the idea of not having an electric asphalt nats in 2011. We can't use the economy as an excuse any more. Go to any 1/10 or 1/8 off road event and turnouts are pretty big. Look locally at Vineland labor day weekend. There is a reason they are getting big turnouts and onroad electric TC is not. Just trying to get some thoughts out there on the matter... Cause when I talk to people in the pits I am not the only one thinking it. But might be one of the only ones asking about it in a forum like this...
People who quit onroad because of classes or technology are just looking for a reason to quit. I remember a lot of racers from back in the south shore days who could tune the piss out of a brushed motor, and they enjoyed being faster even if they couldn't drive. That went away with the first generation of brushless, even now if you take a 0 timing speedo most seem to be pretty evenly matched, so all that was left was to show that they couldn't drive. There is the counter point to that of those who don't have them time to figure out brushed motor voodoo and were quitting because of that, when I first started I had to run a out of the box 19t to keep up with some 27t motors.


Lack of good, cheap RTR cars are killing onroad, look how many posts on here with people asking "I just bought this drift car, can I race it?" Tracks need to have something in a box people can walk in, charge and race, and it needs to look like a real car.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:30 PM   #56
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The real fact of the matter is, the cars are too damned fast for most. That is why on-road (especially TC) is on the decline. On-road is harder to drive than off road, it's a fact for me at least (I drive both). Add to that it's now faster than the limits of most peoples reflexes (we now drive to rhythem, not what we see), and it's a dead-cert for failure.
Brushed mod was fsater than most people coming through the ranks could manage. People haven't gotten "faster" in general over the last few years, but the stock-cars are now as fast as the cars that only a select few could race 5 years ago.
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:24 PM   #57
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http://www.redrc.net/2010/09/speed-p...rs/#more-35135

This SP car looks like a good formula for a beginner car. I was hoping to see some of the blast premount tires around by now, but haven't seen much feedback if they last.
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:49 PM   #58
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I am not one to advocate bringing back the brushed motors, but there should be an emphasis in cleaning up the current classes that are currently on the docket. In my opinion, I feel that the classes should be as follows:

Amateur stock - 21.5/25.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned

Stock - 17.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned

Pro/Super Stock - 13.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 25% manufacturer sponsorship

Mod - 8.5/10.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 50% manufacturer sponsorship

Super Mod - 7.5 to lowest wind brushless, open ESCs, full factory sponsorship

This is a way to keep the sponsored guys from running in the amateur classes and hopefully a way for the amatuers to work their way up (a ladder of progression). Now, if an amatuer wants to go for broke and run with the big boys, they can have at it. But, what you want is to keep the guys with partial paid rides and tire/battery/motor/ESC out of what should be the developmental classes.
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:51 PM   #59
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I am not one to advocate bringing back the brushed motors, but there should be an emphasis in cleaning up the current classes that are currently on the docket. In my opinion, I feel that the classes should be as follows:

Amateur stock - 21.5/25.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned

Stock - 17.5 brushless, fixed timing ESCs, no manufacturer sponsorship of any kind as far as the racer is concerned

Pro/Super Stock - 13.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 25% manufacturer sponsorship

Mod - 8.5/10.5 brushless, open ESCs, no more than 50% manufacturer sponsorship

Super Mod - 7.5 to lowest wind brushless, open ESCs, full factory sponsorship

This is a way to keep the sponsored guys from running in the amateur classes and hopefully a way for the amatuers to work their way up (a ladder of progression). Now, if an amatuer wants to go for broke and run with the big boys, they can have at it. But, what you want is to keep the guys with partial paid rides and tire/battery/motor/ESC out of what should be the developmental classes.
WAY too many classes. Unless you want five people at most in any class.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:12 PM   #60
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5 classes for touring car? Wow...

I think the main thing a lot of people need to get over is the "I wanna be in the A main too" syndrome.....and race directors just fall for it constantly by creating all these expert, sportsman, masters, etc classes...

Multiple classes can somewhat function at a big race.

The other flaw in the idea is trying to keep track of sponsorships.....I proposed a similar system, which would of needed all the companies on board.....good luck with that. In the effort to win at all costs, rules will be bent.....and often.

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