The Official ROAR Festivus Thread
03-18-2010, 12:02 PM
#121
Tech Master
Yep, you warned me - but, I've jumped in with my ass in the lead. Took a few well deserved shots in the ol 'touche for my callous, elitist attitude and wham - here we are. Seems we have some decent discussions. I hope everyone understands I do care and will do all I can to help. Now to get some relevant input. There are posts that have real strength. It is sad to see what is happening to RC racing. All we can do is keep trying to get it right. I do think we are a smart enough bunch to band together to come up with, good, solid and well executed ideas.
03-18-2010, 12:03 PM
#122
I could write a novel but I am not going to waste the time.
03-18-2010, 12:05 PM
#123
Tech Master
Could I ask for Cliff Notes, then?
Rick, all I can do is try. I am willing, but, I'm from the other side of the fence (fuel) - you have a TON of knowledge and racing respect. I can only offer my willingness to serve. I do like RC racing it is a true passion.
Rick, all I can do is try. I am willing, but, I'm from the other side of the fence (fuel) - you have a TON of knowledge and racing respect. I can only offer my willingness to serve. I do like RC racing it is a true passion.
03-18-2010, 12:10 PM
#124
Just my 2 cents: Stock class 17.5 with a non-computer and timing programmed esc.
I love TC racing but its getting ridiculous. I do run the Mamba and have a laptop ( just recently bought ), but when I run offroad (which I am verring towards-less stress) with my sc10 and slash 4x4 I leave the laptop at the house and have no timing worries.
Plus, I see more people racing offroad than onroad. I travel every Sat. to a offroad track 2 hours away and see 80-90 entries, plus they race fri. nights with the same amount. There biggest class is the slash 2wd box stock class 20-30 entires. But they do have Open CORR which is any motor, 10-20 entries. I also race every sunday at my local club's track in 17.5 and VTA. Which sometimes sees about 4-10 entries in 17.5 and about 6-10 VTA.
There are just a few reasons why I still stay in touring racing, racing with good friends locally and seeing the crazies at the NEGS races.
I love TC racing but its getting ridiculous. I do run the Mamba and have a laptop ( just recently bought ), but when I run offroad (which I am verring towards-less stress) with my sc10 and slash 4x4 I leave the laptop at the house and have no timing worries.
Plus, I see more people racing offroad than onroad. I travel every Sat. to a offroad track 2 hours away and see 80-90 entries, plus they race fri. nights with the same amount. There biggest class is the slash 2wd box stock class 20-30 entires. But they do have Open CORR which is any motor, 10-20 entries. I also race every sunday at my local club's track in 17.5 and VTA. Which sometimes sees about 4-10 entries in 17.5 and about 6-10 VTA.
There are just a few reasons why I still stay in touring racing, racing with good friends locally and seeing the crazies at the NEGS races.
03-18-2010, 12:17 PM
#125
if the guys across the pond had to run on 90 x 40 tracks all year long, mod probably wouldn't work over there either.
i can't help but feel like we have tunnel vision and continue to forumlate our ideas for the future based on our own, often makeshift, home tracks. what if we started using some nitro tracks all summer (or winter in florida and similar) and expanded our indoor events to have larger templates? maybe this is more for touring, but that seems to be what a lot of this pertains to.
the old format of tight tracks with nothing but 180's, coupled with the fact that pan cars can't tolerate dots is crippling our ability to present better touring circuits. and now, some think tc should run on 3.7v so that we can continue to run in our basements all year.
this is what makes me think we are blinded by trying to get things back to how it used to be, instead of finally expanding to new areas. i understand the existing tracks aren't going to change overnight, but there are a number of gas tracks sitting around on off days for the nitro guys. they are built, often publicly owned, and ready for some mayhem.
every time i catch up on the latest ets leg, i'm left with more than a slight feeling of jeaslousy.
03-18-2010, 12:21 PM
#126
As an owner operator that has to deal with the continued decline of on-road over the last year, with no end in site. The current state of the "speedo war" has got things to a point, that the perception is, " I have to have that in order to do well". Now instead of the battery or motor of the month it's the esc's.
While all of the new technology has truly shown us what the brushless motors are capable of, it is in no way made things more "user friendly" for the average consumer who wants to start in the hobby.
There is no foreseeable end to the technological advancements that the hobby is going through right now, especially with daily phone calls that I recieve asking about LiFe and other new battery technologies out there.
Asking ROAR to limit what we use may not be the best solution for a geographic area of hobbyists. Track sizes and conditions vary so greatly within a geographic area that what may work for Mr Cuff's place may not work
at a place like Victory R/C in Green Bay.
Tracks within a 50 mile radius may not even be following the same rule set or same class structure within the rule set.
Should the individual regions set the specifics of the classes which are run in their geographic area?
For example "Sportsman"; 21.5 mfg "A", with specific ESC settings. "Expert" 17.5 and open ESC, and of course "Pro", any motor any esc.
Would this be easier? One very specific rule set at the Regional level and another at the National Level?
Or is the more potentially cost effective route be that VTA, or something similar should become the "Sportsman" class.
While all of the new technology has truly shown us what the brushless motors are capable of, it is in no way made things more "user friendly" for the average consumer who wants to start in the hobby.
There is no foreseeable end to the technological advancements that the hobby is going through right now, especially with daily phone calls that I recieve asking about LiFe and other new battery technologies out there.
Asking ROAR to limit what we use may not be the best solution for a geographic area of hobbyists. Track sizes and conditions vary so greatly within a geographic area that what may work for Mr Cuff's place may not work
at a place like Victory R/C in Green Bay.
Tracks within a 50 mile radius may not even be following the same rule set or same class structure within the rule set.
Should the individual regions set the specifics of the classes which are run in their geographic area?
For example "Sportsman"; 21.5 mfg "A", with specific ESC settings. "Expert" 17.5 and open ESC, and of course "Pro", any motor any esc.
Would this be easier? One very specific rule set at the Regional level and another at the National Level?
Or is the more potentially cost effective route be that VTA, or something similar should become the "Sportsman" class.
03-18-2010, 12:25 PM
#127
Tech Champion
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if the guys across the pond had to run on 90 x 40 tracks all year long, mod probably wouldn't work over there either.
i can't help but feel like we have tunnel vision and continue to forumlate our ideas for the future based on our own, often makeshift, home tracks. what if we started using some nitro tracks all summer (or winter in florida and similar) and expanded our indoor events to have larger templates? maybe this is more for touring, but that seems to be what a lot of this pertains to.
the old format of tight tracks with nothing but 180's, coupled with the fact that pan cars can't tolerate dots is crippling our ability to present better touring circuits. and now, some think tc should run on 3.7v so that we can continue to run in our basements all year.
this is what makes me think we are blinded by trying to get things back to how it used to be, instead of finally expanding to new areas. i understand the existing tracks aren't going to change overnight, but there are a number of gas tracks sitting around on off days for the nitro guys. they are built, often publicly owned, and ready for some mayhem.
03-18-2010, 12:26 PM
#128
For another take on this why not do away with mod at Carpet races all together here in the US? It’s the lowest attended class of all the classes at the Nationals and larger races. Why not make the few join the many and race 13.5 instead of making the many go up and join the few. I really fail to see the logic behind this thought process of making people run mod just so there is a mod class. Yes Mod is run all around the world we all know this....but for whatever reason it’s not working here in America. How do you fix what is broken.....???
You dont have to drop in a 4.5. 
WHY on this earth would you consolidate to the SLOWER class??
Some of us dont like going slow. We like having power, since after all, these are just expensive toy cars. Ive never had anybody come into the hobby shop and ask "Hey man, this car is sick, how slow does it go?" If we need a 25.5 sportsman class, and a Open class (Modified Class) to make peoples passions for slowness fulfilled, thats fine. But dont count out the people that wanna run MODIFIED.
To many classes, not enough guys that wanna fulfill 99.99% of humanities quench for speed.
03-18-2010, 12:43 PM
#129
Here is what I posted (in paragraph form) in another thread...and this again is coming from someone who is on teh sidelines at this point:
Originally Posted by trackdesigner71
There ought to be a rookie class where only racers with <1 full year of racing experience are classified, and can run their RTRs, zero sponsorship and strictly limited upgrading...kinda like with Legends only opening up the chassis options. After a racer has raced as a rookie for one full year or three feature victories within that one year ("battlefield promotion" I think they call it on the Nationwide Tour in golf) and weekly or bimonthly workshops led by the shop and some of the highly seasoned racers at the track so they can learn things about their cars and can develop car tuning skills for the the next step. That next step up would be Sportsman. >1 year of racing (or automatic promotion for three feature wins) but not < 3 years and limited sponsorship. By this point, after cutting their teeth racing with other rookies and learning about their cars, racers will probably have stepped up to a car with more tuning options but they arent quite ready to rumble with the big guns. Five or more wins as a sportsman (or up to two more years racing experience) and then its Expert. These guys are pretty locked in when it comes to racing. They have been in for three years, could probably build their own car and have pretty significant tuning knowledge, their pretty competitive on a weekly basis and maybe can run a big event or two and finish pretty well. They have some legit sponsors as well and can start helping the newer racers that are running rookie and maybe even some of the sportsman racers. After a year of expert, four years in total, (at least in theory) these guys can go out and run national races as spokespeople for the hobby and for their local track and rumble with the likes of Blackstock, Cavalieri, Drake, Cuffs et al as a Pro.
03-18-2010, 12:44 PM
#130
Rich - I'm glad you are seeing the benefit of such a thread like this. We may not all agree on some things but for the first time in a while we are at least talking about the issues and having dialog with ROAR which is something that has been missing IMO.
For those of us that are still ROAR members, why not have a ballot or survey system so that ROAR doesn't have to make all of the rules. We pay for membership and I'm sure many of us would like to have input into the rules that ROAR develops. I'd suggest you take some of the ideas posted in this thread throw up a survey and or ballot and let the members vote. This will take some of the pressure off ROAR and put some ownership on the racers. Next, implement the outcome for a month or two in a few regions, collect some data from the track owners, and implement at the next big race. Then repeat the process again. Take the leasons learned share them with the racing community and lets make some progress.
I think if ROAR contacted track owners and had some dialog testing of various sorts could take place and who knows you might develop some really good data.
Right now most of the stuff up until last night was keep in a vacumm, and now some really good ideas and suggestions have been surfaced.
Will you get it right the first time...probably not, but if you include the racers input we can't put all the blame on you, as we the racers had input, by voting.
Mark
For those of us that are still ROAR members, why not have a ballot or survey system so that ROAR doesn't have to make all of the rules. We pay for membership and I'm sure many of us would like to have input into the rules that ROAR develops. I'd suggest you take some of the ideas posted in this thread throw up a survey and or ballot and let the members vote. This will take some of the pressure off ROAR and put some ownership on the racers. Next, implement the outcome for a month or two in a few regions, collect some data from the track owners, and implement at the next big race. Then repeat the process again. Take the leasons learned share them with the racing community and lets make some progress.
I think if ROAR contacted track owners and had some dialog testing of various sorts could take place and who knows you might develop some really good data.
Right now most of the stuff up until last night was keep in a vacumm, and now some really good ideas and suggestions have been surfaced.
Will you get it right the first time...probably not, but if you include the racers input we can't put all the blame on you, as we the racers had input, by voting.
Mark
03-18-2010, 12:52 PM
#131
Tech Master
Rich - I'm glad you are seeing the benefit of such a thread like this. We may not all agree on some things but for the first time in a while we are at least talking about the issues and having dialog with ROAR which is something that has been missing IMO.
For those of us that are still ROAR members, why not have a ballot or survey system so that ROAR doesn't have to make all of the rules. We pay for membership and I'm sure many of us would like to have input into the rules that ROAR develops. I'd suggest you take some of the ideas posted in this thread throw up a survey and or ballot and let the members vote. This will take some of the pressure off ROAR and put some ownership on the racers. Next, implement the outcome for a month or two in a few regions, collect some data from the track owners, and implement at the next big race. Then repeat the process again. Take the leasons learned share them with the racing community and lets make some progress.
I think if ROAR contacted track owners and had some dialog testing of various sorts could take place and who knows you might develop some really good data.
Right now most of the stuff up until last night was keep in a vacumm, and now some really good ideas and suggestions have been surfaced.
Will you get it right the first time...probably not, but if you include the racers input we can't put all the blame on you, as we the racers had input, by voting.
Mark
For those of us that are still ROAR members, why not have a ballot or survey system so that ROAR doesn't have to make all of the rules. We pay for membership and I'm sure many of us would like to have input into the rules that ROAR develops. I'd suggest you take some of the ideas posted in this thread throw up a survey and or ballot and let the members vote. This will take some of the pressure off ROAR and put some ownership on the racers. Next, implement the outcome for a month or two in a few regions, collect some data from the track owners, and implement at the next big race. Then repeat the process again. Take the leasons learned share them with the racing community and lets make some progress.
I think if ROAR contacted track owners and had some dialog testing of various sorts could take place and who knows you might develop some really good data.
Right now most of the stuff up until last night was keep in a vacumm, and now some really good ideas and suggestions have been surfaced.
Will you get it right the first time...probably not, but if you include the racers input we can't put all the blame on you, as we the racers had input, by voting.
Mark
Quick note: The membership is ROAR. I know it seems like a back room filled with smoke, maybe it was, let me just say - that's not what the current group in the ExCom wants. Transparency is a hard thing to obtain. The new ROAR Web Site is where we are going to open the dialog up. For now, until the ROAR forum is up, I guess I'll be here.
Interesting you asked about polling. The ROAR forum does have polling capability. Steve Pond is expressing the idea to get the Committees and the ExCom to utilize the polling feature. Why not the membership, too - seems like a great idea.
03-18-2010, 12:53 PM
#132
Tech Champion
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WHY on this earth would you consolidate to the SLOWER class?? Some of us dont like going slow. We like having power, since after all, these are just expensive toy cars. Ive never had anybody come into the hobby shop and ask "Hey man, this car is sick, how slow does it go?"
Some of us dont like going slow. We like having power, since after all, these are just expensive toy cars. Ive never had anybody come into the hobby shop and ask "Hey man, this car is sick, how slow does it go?" I agree there are too many classes....but the problem is each class has people that like the class. Really why is it ok to tell the most popular class that they need to change to a less popular one is all Im saying. There is no easy solution....if its mod...then there is already a mod class but its not working...so what is it?
03-18-2010, 01:06 PM
#134
Rich Browne
Don't leave it up to the racers, thats what got us in this mess to begin with. GET RID OF ANY SPEC CLASS becuase when 17.5 spec lap times are no more then .5 off from Mod then its not really SPEC RACING. This is my solution just make the tuff call and run Mod and 21.5 and be prepared for RCTECH TO GO IN COMPLETE MELTDOWN MODE WITH THE FOLLOWING REPLIES:
1. Roar is killing touring
2. Get rid of Roar
3. Get rid of Dawn Sanchez
4. Screw the Nats I'll be racing at my local track
The funny thing is nobody wants to run Mod but have been runnin' mild Mod laps times with the advancement of ESC's
Rich make the unpopular chose but it is the right thing to do
Don't leave it up to the racers, thats what got us in this mess to begin with. GET RID OF ANY SPEC CLASS becuase when 17.5 spec lap times are no more then .5 off from Mod then its not really SPEC RACING. This is my solution just make the tuff call and run Mod and 21.5 and be prepared for RCTECH TO GO IN COMPLETE MELTDOWN MODE WITH THE FOLLOWING REPLIES:
1. Roar is killing touring
2. Get rid of Roar
3. Get rid of Dawn Sanchez
4. Screw the Nats I'll be racing at my local track
The funny thing is nobody wants to run Mod but have been runnin' mild Mod laps times with the advancement of ESC's
Rich make the unpopular chose but it is the right thing to do
Last edited by dawgmeat; 03-18-2010 at 01:45 PM.
03-18-2010, 01:19 PM
#135
Doesn't ROAR allow the local club races the ability to govern there local races. All you have to do is post them before your race.You want to go slower make your own rules saying that. Racing series do the same thing- at least the one I've raced for 29 years does. ROAR is alway slow to react and does not like criticism.