Should timing boost ESC's be legal for spec/stock classes?
11-21-2009, 04:03 PM
#31
All of the top speed controls offer some sort of timing boost, whether they call it turbo or not. If Tekin comes out with new software that makes the increase more linear and stops calling it turbo, should that be illegal? Everyone at my track runs the RS and there are always a couple of guys with computers that are willing to assist with changes. Stop calling it STOCK also. The rules shouldn't separate the drivers, the qualifying should.
I think you are correct with the class naming. It is time for a class makeover call them 17.5/13.5/mod to be more in line . I also think that the racing community needs to get out of its head that 17.5/stock is for beginners, as was suggested in an earlier post, it a definition of a motor type no different than any other class definition.
If as a racer community we want a beginner class then we should push the organizing body to create a ruleset to do so. If we want that class to be a spec type class then we as the community should ask for it. I suspect that the problem we will run into with this is that the rules will be made either to strict or too loose which will not help get the new blood in we hope to.
To make sure I stay on topic, I agree that going to bonded rotors is not the answer as other have suggested. If the concern is that 17.5 is going to fast for beginners, do we really think that limiting speed controllers is going to create a environment that is going to solve this problem? No manufacturer produces a current line of speed controllers for this. While there are lines of speed controllers that don't offer boost they are not designed for all out racing and as such those that are looking to get into racing will most likely purchase race bred components that offer boost as that is what racers are going to recommend.
11-21-2009, 07:17 PM
#32
11-21-2009, 07:23 PM
#34
You never had to get every new speed control. Until BL came out I ran the same 1st gen Cyclone for 10 years, never had an issue or saw any advantage to any of the newer stuff.
I think the new timing features is a different animal though. It's a great technology but once again, the companies that make the equipment have found a way to make it expensive to be competitive.
To the poster that doesn't think all lipos and BL motors are created equal, fair enough, but these two pieces are far closer to that ideal now than they ever have been in the history of the hobby. I have been here since the beginning, watching stock class racing get turned into something other than it was intended to be over and over again.
I think the new timing features is a different animal though. It's a great technology but once again, the companies that make the equipment have found a way to make it expensive to be competitive.
To the poster that doesn't think all lipos and BL motors are created equal, fair enough, but these two pieces are far closer to that ideal now than they ever have been in the history of the hobby. I have been here since the beginning, watching stock class racing get turned into something other than it was intended to be over and over again.
we buy hype, whether it works or not. very few tracks around that you "need" the timing advance stuff. but everyones gotta have it.
11-21-2009, 07:24 PM
#35
Brushed speed controllers offered many different adjustments such as drive and brake frequency. We also had motors that had different amounts of fixed timing in them. The current crop of speed controllers are offering this same type of adjustment, however it is now more noticeable than with the brushed motors we were running before, because of the way they produce power compared to their brushed counterparts.
I think that the issue we face with brushless technology is that because the technology is new for racing there are many areas of performance that manufactures are exploring, since there is little that can be tuned on brushless motor compared to it's brushed counterpart we are seeing the configuration changes happen at the speed controller rather than the motor.
I think that it is important we encourage manufactures to push the limits as it allows us see the performance that our race systems are capable of. Asking speed controller manufactures to not produce better equipment is analogous to asking car manufactures to not to create better handling vehicles because they are an unfair advantage to the current crop of cars on the market.
I can understand that it is rather frustrating to see speed controllers become "out of date" so quickly, however I also think that companies like Tekin and Castle have done it right. Perhaps what we should look at is how can we a consumers use our collective voice to tell manufactures that what we want are speed controllers that we can update ourselves vice having to buy hardware that is not out of date, but merely needs a firmware update.
Thoughts?
I think that the issue we face with brushless technology is that because the technology is new for racing there are many areas of performance that manufactures are exploring, since there is little that can be tuned on brushless motor compared to it's brushed counterpart we are seeing the configuration changes happen at the speed controller rather than the motor.
I think that it is important we encourage manufactures to push the limits as it allows us see the performance that our race systems are capable of. Asking speed controller manufactures to not produce better equipment is analogous to asking car manufactures to not to create better handling vehicles because they are an unfair advantage to the current crop of cars on the market.
I can understand that it is rather frustrating to see speed controllers become "out of date" so quickly, however I also think that companies like Tekin and Castle have done it right. Perhaps what we should look at is how can we a consumers use our collective voice to tell manufactures that what we want are speed controllers that we can update ourselves vice having to buy hardware that is not out of date, but merely needs a firmware update.
Thoughts?
perfect..
11-21-2009, 07:36 PM
#36
17.5= Novice/beginner. The "Newbs" place to not get killed
13.5= Club racing class for all. Fast but not over done. Does not kill stuff like mod, but is not slow like 17.5. This is the class that Turbo/ Timing should be a big deal. Leave 17.5 alone. Let the newbs have a chance without spending a lot on esc's/motors/lipos. If your fast, go fast.
EDIT: I must admit, I have a 17.5. But I don't intend to run it unless I must.
13.5= Club racing class for all. Fast but not over done. Does not kill stuff like mod, but is not slow like 17.5. This is the class that Turbo/ Timing should be a big deal. Leave 17.5 alone. Let the newbs have a chance without spending a lot on esc's/motors/lipos. If your fast, go fast.
EDIT: I must admit, I have a 17.5. But I don't intend to run it unless I must.
11-21-2009, 07:57 PM
#37
17.5= Novice/beginner. The "Newbs" place to not get killed
13.5= Club racing class for all. Fast but not over done. Does not kill stuff like mod, but is not slow like 17.5. This is the class that Turbo/ Timing should be a big deal. Leave 17.5 alone. Let the newbs have a chance without spending a lot on esc's/motors/lipos.
13.5= Club racing class for all. Fast but not over done. Does not kill stuff like mod, but is not slow like 17.5. This is the class that Turbo/ Timing should be a big deal. Leave 17.5 alone. Let the newbs have a chance without spending a lot on esc's/motors/lipos.
The fact that there are pros that run stock I suspect is more of a fact that it is where the largest group of racers are running at their track or area. If there is not a Mod class for your local pro to run, can we really blame them for running in the lower classes. I had the opportunity to watch Barry Baker and Steve Weiss of Novak fame run at our local parking lot today along with one of our local racers in a rare mod class. To suggest that in one of our ordinary club races a guy fresh out of novice would have to run with that group in a 13.5 class, had there not been a mod class today, I don't think that racer would be back after that. This is why a 17.5 class is needed to allow for a separation.
How does this apply to turbo in a speed controller? Simply, that the speed controller we allow into a class is far less important all other things being equal than the drivers ability. As others have suggested in other threads the way to get faster is to practice, practice, practice. Turbo is only going to get you wrecked faster if you cant handle it.
Last edited by JSeay; 11-21-2009 at 08:01 PM. Reason: etiquette
11-21-2009, 08:19 PM
#38
My problem with this is that the jump from 17.5 to 13.5 on some tracks can be significant in terms of speed. At the tracks around me the difference between a 17.5 and 13.5 is significant. If we are to consider this in its brushed equivalent we are asking a racer fresh out of novice to jump to 19t. I don't know this is the right transition for a new racer to make. They would have to buy an new motor and spend more time learning setup. If there is a 17.5 class then it allows that racer to continue to hone in their skills. It would seem that 4 classes would make sense Novice/17.5/13.5/Mod. Since not all tracks can/do support a mod class I suspect that those racers who normally run a mod will be racing in the 13.5 class or possibly even the 17.5 class if there group is that small.
The fact that there are pros that run stock I suspect is more of a fact that it is where the largest group of racers are running at their track or area. If there is not a Mod class for your local pro to run, can we really blame them for running in the lower classes. I had the opportunity to watch Barry Baker and Steve Weiss of Novak fame run at our local parking lot today along with one of our local racers in a rare mod class. To suggest that in one of our ordinary club races a guy fresh out of novice would have to run with that group in a 13.5 class, had there not been a mod class today, I don't think that racer would be back after that. This is why a 17.5 class is needed to allow for a separation.
How does this apply to turbo in a speed controller? Simply, that the speed controller we allow into a class is far less important all other things being equal than the drivers ability. As others have suggested in other threads the way to get faster is to practice, practice, practice. Turbo is only going to get you wrecked faster if you cant handle it.
The fact that there are pros that run stock I suspect is more of a fact that it is where the largest group of racers are running at their track or area. If there is not a Mod class for your local pro to run, can we really blame them for running in the lower classes. I had the opportunity to watch Barry Baker and Steve Weiss of Novak fame run at our local parking lot today along with one of our local racers in a rare mod class. To suggest that in one of our ordinary club races a guy fresh out of novice would have to run with that group in a 13.5 class, had there not been a mod class today, I don't think that racer would be back after that. This is why a 17.5 class is needed to allow for a separation.
How does this apply to turbo in a speed controller? Simply, that the speed controller we allow into a class is far less important all other things being equal than the drivers ability. As others have suggested in other threads the way to get faster is to practice, practice, practice. Turbo is only going to get you wrecked faster if you cant handle it.
, I FULLY support 17.5 for the newbies. I just don't like that most have to spend all kinds of money to get the timing advance ESC and race with fast guys. Sure, most will hit the wall so much that fancy stuff wont matter anyway. But most people don't belive they suck, they think its there car, ESC, Motor and they want the latest stuff. So they get frustrated and pick up a less money demanding hobby. Like, gardening. (If you have never watched Top Gear, you wont get the gardening reference.)I think after people get the jist of racing (Lets say, a full season) they should bump up to 13.5. Hopefully at that time they will have already collected the timing advance ESC, good LIPO, and a decent set of skills.
17.5, basic equipment, newer drivers.
13.5, good equipment, experienced drivers.
Mod, big races, experienced drivers.
11-21-2009, 08:19 PM
#39
Tech Master
iTrader: (3)
Look at F1 this year. Ross Brawn did his homework and figured out the double diffuser, and that gave Brawn GP the advantage over the field in the early part of the year.
11-21-2009, 08:53 PM
#40
i think all speedo's are ok for all classes as long as its available to the public at least a couple months before , and if its not then it can be ran in 10.5 or lower motor classes. IMO
11-21-2009, 09:17 PM
#41
Don't get me wrong, , I FULLY support 17.5 for the newbies. I just don't like that most have to spend all kinds of money to get the timing advance ESC and race with fast guys. Sure, most will hit the wall so much that fancy stuff wont matter anyway. But most people don't belive they suck, they think its there car, ESC, Motor and they want the latest stuff. So they get frustrated and pick up a less money demanding hobby. Like, gardening. (If you have never watched Top Gear, you wont get the gardening reference.)
I think after people get the jist of racing (Lets say, a full season) they should bump up to 13.5. Hopefully at that time they will have already collected the timing advance ESC, good LIPO, and a decent set of skills.
17.5, basic equipment, newer drivers.
13.5, good equipment, experienced drivers.
Mod, big races, experienced drivers.
, I FULLY support 17.5 for the newbies. I just don't like that most have to spend all kinds of money to get the timing advance ESC and race with fast guys. Sure, most will hit the wall so much that fancy stuff wont matter anyway. But most people don't belive they suck, they think its there car, ESC, Motor and they want the latest stuff. So they get frustrated and pick up a less money demanding hobby. Like, gardening. (If you have never watched Top Gear, you wont get the gardening reference.)I think after people get the jist of racing (Lets say, a full season) they should bump up to 13.5. Hopefully at that time they will have already collected the timing advance ESC, good LIPO, and a decent set of skills.
17.5, basic equipment, newer drivers.
13.5, good equipment, experienced drivers.
Mod, big races, experienced drivers.
novice, stock, mod,
put a time limit on the novice class, once you can exceed that limit for -oh lets just pick a number- for 3 races, then you "get" to run stock.
11-22-2009, 01:01 AM
#43
Honestly, this is a stupid discussion. Timing advance speed controls were made for spec classes. You don't need them in modified racing. They are just a way to make spec motors faster. In mod you just bolt in a faster motor. I know drivers who prefer the SPX over the SXX even in mod because they say it is smoother, but it doesn't have anything to do with making the car faster 
11-22-2009, 03:20 AM
#44
I think a distinction needs to be made between stock classes that are intended to be competitive, and stock classes that are intended to be cheap.
Now I know that every racer wants to make their car faster... I have seen enough beginners put completely inappropriate motors and hop-ups on their cars to know that.
The issue we now have with brushless is that the cost of access to the sport is very high.
If you don't have (in UK money) £250 worth of motor/speedo in your car, you cannot match the top speed others have. And for beginners, top speed is what makes a car "fast", not driving, which is "easy".
This is why I think that Tamiya stock classes are great for the sport right now. Growing numbers of clubs in the UK are seeing good turnouts for this class (generally Mini), where you can turn up with £250 worth of equipment in total and be as quick down the straight as the A-final winner.
Silver can motors are not without their drawbacks, so in the longer term a brushless alternative will happen. It will be interesting to see what Tamiya themselves do.
But in the meantime, I think there is room for spec controllers with fixed/limited advance, and for timing-locked motors built to the basic ROAR dimensions. Pretty much how we ran the classes with brushed.
If this needs to come from a single manufacturer, then so be it.
Now I know that every racer wants to make their car faster... I have seen enough beginners put completely inappropriate motors and hop-ups on their cars to know that.
The issue we now have with brushless is that the cost of access to the sport is very high.
If you don't have (in UK money) £250 worth of motor/speedo in your car, you cannot match the top speed others have. And for beginners, top speed is what makes a car "fast", not driving, which is "easy".
This is why I think that Tamiya stock classes are great for the sport right now. Growing numbers of clubs in the UK are seeing good turnouts for this class (generally Mini), where you can turn up with £250 worth of equipment in total and be as quick down the straight as the A-final winner.
Silver can motors are not without their drawbacks, so in the longer term a brushless alternative will happen. It will be interesting to see what Tamiya themselves do.
But in the meantime, I think there is room for spec controllers with fixed/limited advance, and for timing-locked motors built to the basic ROAR dimensions. Pretty much how we ran the classes with brushed.
If this needs to come from a single manufacturer, then so be it.
11-22-2009, 05:10 AM
#45
Spec motor/speedy combo has helped our mini class over here.
Numbers are increasing all the time,as once you have bought your gear initially, the ongoing costs are minimal. E.G tyres/crash damage.
The Hobbywing combo is approx Au $120-150. This gets you the motor ,esc and programming card. It's plug and play from there..
So it's controlled : chassis,motor,esc,gearing,optional parts,limited battery choices (stick pack style lipos only).
I agree wholly,that the biggest performance factor is driver,BUT you can't dispute the MENTAL IMPACT of "the other guy" with his latest spec gear.
It's a shame that VTA couldn't have started with a similar motor/esc combo.
I know that F1 is starting to build a tiny bit of a following over here again, and i'd be surprised if a control combo isn't introduced to keep the FUN factor up. Dollar wars SUCK !! The wives/better halves usually agree too 
My AU $.02.
Numbers are increasing all the time,as once you have bought your gear initially, the ongoing costs are minimal. E.G tyres/crash damage.
The Hobbywing combo is approx Au $120-150. This gets you the motor ,esc and programming card. It's plug and play from there..
So it's controlled : chassis,motor,esc,gearing,optional parts,limited battery choices (stick pack style lipos only).
I agree wholly,that the biggest performance factor is driver,BUT you can't dispute the MENTAL IMPACT of "the other guy" with his latest spec gear.
It's a shame that VTA couldn't have started with a similar motor/esc combo.
I know that F1 is starting to build a tiny bit of a following over here again, and i'd be surprised if a control combo isn't introduced to keep the FUN factor up. Dollar wars SUCK !!
The wives/better halves usually agree too My AU $.02.