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Old 10-06-2009, 05:51 AM   #46
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From a club perspective, it can be a tough call deciding what the "stock" class is in brushless terms.

The size of the track and ability of racers attending are probably the main factors to help decide.

I've raced stock 95/99% since touring cars first came out, and the difference in laptimes between 13.5 and 27t can be considerably more on bigger tracks, but the main thing is learning to race with the difference in torque/punch and setting the car up to handle the extra speed.

13.5 feels almost like 19t for me, which was too fast for me a lot of the time, although very rewarding when driven well.

I don't like how many clubs have adopted 13.5 to be the stock class these days, but you just gotta roll with it

I'd happily use a 17.5 if clubs supported it, not everyone likes 10.5 or mod. I see the speed of brushless killing some peoples interest for touring cars.

I've only broken one c hub on my touring car since i've had it, but when you feel out of your comfort zone with speed, it can become less enjoyable.

Always a fine balance I guess!
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Old 10-06-2009, 05:58 AM   #47
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I think 1 cell has some benefits. The batteries will be cheaper - at least until manufacturers start charging a premium by simply slapping "optimised" labels all over them! It might also benefit 1/12th scale numbers too.
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Old 10-06-2009, 06:27 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by tc3team View Post
From a club perspective, it can be a tough call deciding what the "stock" class is in brushless terms.
Can we please stop calling it stock? Stock hasn't been stock since they allowed rebuildable motors.
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:12 AM   #49
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Can we please stop calling it stock? Stock hasn't been stock since they allowed rebuildable motors.
17.5...
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:15 AM   #50
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make the weight limit 1100 grams. shaft drive cars don't flex, less power is needed to go fast, 4/5ths the impact force in crashes so fewer breaks.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:58 AM   #51
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Very interesting thread on here.

The difference between Stock and Mod really isn't that big anymore.
The same is true for Europe.

In Germany for example it's 5cell Nimh in both of the classes with the stock class having a 9.5t limit and modified running 3,5t/6t delta/5t delta something around that. On small tracks, like the German Nats this year it happened from time to time that Stock was faster/just as fast as Mod.

In the Uk, mod is 5cell open/ lipo 6,5t with most people using 5cell when runtime was no issue. Stock is 10.5/lipo.

The Eu went from 6 to 5cells 3 years ago I think and that was prett much the best step.
Modified became more attractive and much more controlable

I personally think lower voltage definately helps but, 1s is not really an option.

I've tested LiFe Packs quite a bit now. 6,6V (discharge curve is pretty similar to a 5cell nimh pack), 3400mah, and the smooth/controlable 5cell feeling when driving.
It was great compared to lipo.
If someone would say 3400mah is not very much, I agree, but I used a 4t and a speedo set to max power and still was able to do 6 1/2 minutes of runtime, so you definately can do runtime.

That life packs last longer and are more secure is a fact.

The life packs I tested do have the same hardcase "efra lipos" do and are 10g lighter. So they fit any car and there's no balance issue.

http://shop.graupner.de/webuerp/servlet/AI?ARTN=98972

a link for those who want to have a look.

That's it for now.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:59 AM   #52
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Can we please stop calling it stock? Stock hasn't been stock since they allowed rebuildable motors.
We still call it stock at our local club, as 13.5 and 27t are allowed to be used in the same class, although I do understand some clubs are very anti to calling it stock now.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:15 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Martin Hofer View Post
I've tested LiFe Packs quite a bit now. 6,6V (discharge curve is pretty similar to a 5cell nimh pack), 3400mah, and the smooth/controlable 5cell feeling when driving.
It was great compared to lipo.
If someone would say 3400mah is not very much, I agree, but I used a 4t and a speedo set to max power and still was able to do 6 1/2 minutes of runtime, so you definately can do runtime.

That life packs last longer and are more secure is a fact.

The life packs I tested do have the same hardcase "efra lipos" do and are 10g lighter. So they fit any car and there's no balance issue.

http://shop.graupner.de/webuerp/servlet/AI?ARTN=98972

a link for those who want to have a look.

That's it for now.

Thanks for your post Martin, that pack looks great and I would think that this would have to be considered in the US at some point in the future. ROAR has pretty much been focusing on safety concerns but this pack being a hardcase in a usable configuration is what we needed to see. I usually see loose LiFe cells made into packs with little or no casing and in our sue happy country those would not fly. These have posibilities though.

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Old 10-07-2009, 02:18 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Can we please stop calling it stock? Stock hasn't been stock since they allowed rebuildable motors.
ROAR calls it stock and superstock and modified

Steve
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:48 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team View Post
We still call it stock at our local club, as 13.5 and 27t are allowed to be used in the same class, although I do understand some clubs are very anti to calling it stock now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by corallyman View Post
ROAR calls it stock and superstock and modified

Steve
I want to stop calling it stock because there's no clear definition any more. At least with brushed motors we all agreed stock meant 27 turn locked timing and bushings. Now some call 17.5 stock, some call 13.5 stock, and no one has mentioned the 21.5 motors, which should be mainstreamed as the entry level class in on road. (I've been told that even 17.5 is too slow in off road)

ROAR calls it stock because the tech committee is stuck on the stock and mod definitions. And super stock was a dumb name!

Not to hijack a thread here, but my idea for class names, which is based on what full scale classes are,

GT1 - 10.5
GT2 - 13.5
GT3 - 17.5
GTA - 21.5 A for amateur
GTO - O for open any motor

Of course rubber tire/foam tire screws this system up.
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:00 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
GT1 - 10.5
GT2 - 13.5
GT3 - 17.5
GTA - 21.5 A for amateur
GTO - O for open any motor
'Tis far too many classes. Really, stock and modified should be enough (although modified in touring is far too fast for most, hence the super-stock). And thankfully, here in the UK, foam tyres are dead above club level, and dying out there too, so we only have to worry about rubber tyres.

The problem is that brushless motors have developed very rapidly in the last couple of years. I suspect the technology is reaching a bit of a plateau now. 10.5 is very fast, much faster than 19T, too fast for beginners; 13.5 is probably too fast as well. 17.5 is gaining popularity as a "stock" class in the UK, but the problem is a lot of people have already invested in 13.5. I don't think anyone is using 21.5 in the UK.

Perhaps 1s LiPo is the wrong path for touring - but the LiFE technology is interesting. However it will be hard to convince racers to give up 10% of their voltage. Looks like LiPo is the cell of choice for the next generation of RC, outside of any 6.6V spec series.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:08 AM   #57
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LiFE sounds like a good solution. And it would work well in 12th scale and offroad. But Lipo is so widely used now, it would be pretty difficult to change... However I think Lipos are not permitted for racing in Japan. So the technology will remain in RC and maybe even take over one day?

I like the idea of being able to use one type of battery for onroad, offroad and 1/12th racing. It could only benefit the hobby.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:21 AM   #58
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'Tis far too many classes. Really, stock and modified should be enough (although modified in touring is far too fast for most, hence the super-stock). And thankfully, here in the UK, foam tyres are dead above club level, and dying out there too, so we only have to worry about rubber tyres.

The problem is that brushless motors have developed very rapidly in the last couple of years. I suspect the technology is reaching a bit of a plateau now. 10.5 is very fast, much faster than 19T, too fast for beginners; 13.5 is probably too fast as well. 17.5 is gaining popularity as a "stock" class in the UK, but the problem is a lot of people have already invested in 13.5. I don't think anyone is using 21.5 in the UK.

Perhaps 1s LiPo is the wrong path for touring - but the LiFE technology is interesting. However it will be hard to convince racers to give up 10% of their voltage. Looks like LiPo is the cell of choice for the next generation of RC, outside of any 6.6V spec series.
Most tracks wouldn't run all those classes. In the US no one runs mod except at the really big races. The 21.5 class would only be for clubs with a big newbie contingent.

With everyone already heavily invested in LiPo, LiFe has no chance. Who's going to start another set of new classes based on 6.6 volt?
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:54 AM   #59
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With everyone already heavily invested in LiPo, LiFe has no chance. Who's going to start another set of new classes based on 6.6 volt?
The same question was asked when we talked about switching from NiMh to LiPo. Look where we're at now...

Any changes should be delayed for a full year to give every one time to get some use out of the cells that they have.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:02 AM   #60
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Most tracks wouldn't run all those classes. In the US no one runs mod except at the really big races. The 21.5 class would only be for clubs with a big newbie contingent.
Our local track has a healthy mod class, 9 cars last Sunday: http://home.att.net/~fantasyworldrac..._club_race.htm

This year we dropped 13.5 as a mainstream class to place more emphasis on mod. It has worked. We have a B main every week in 17.5 and quite a few new drivers in mod. We also run Trans-Am class (with silver can motors, performance similar to 21.5 but much cheaper and no ESC obsolescence issue) as an inexpensive fun class that can also serve as a bridge between novice and stock. Our Trans-Am turnouts have grown to equal the 17.5 turnout.
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