3LikesTamiya TRF415
10-16-2005, 10:59 PM
msx
yah I have the 3mm lower deck stock,ms and DJ arms just not sure if I want to try the DJ's or wait ..I just put my msx togeather and wow sweet my track opens in a week can't wait!
10-17-2005, 06:24 AM
I have no idea, got a DJ and an MSX, waiting on here to see what works well!
I dont have the time at the moment to do anything but race, so running practice sessions to try out new setups isnt possible.......
I dont have the time at the moment to do anything but race, so running practice sessions to try out new setups isnt possible.......
10-17-2005, 06:45 AM
Tech Regular
i ran my msx with dj yesterday on asphalt, i set track record for stock untill two laps later someone beat it by .006
10-17-2005, 07:15 AM
The MSX is really an improvement from the old car laptime-wise. it's far more sensitive for tweaking than the old 415 though, just a slight bump in the wall and it's far tweaked. It would be awsome to have upperdeck(s) that extend out to the old middle deck posts to make the car stiffer and probably less prone to tweaking..
10-17-2005, 08:08 AM
I thought thats why they came out with the msx to fix the tweaking???
10-17-2005, 08:29 AM
Originally Posted by drew85
I thought thats why they came out with the msx to fix the tweaking???
10-17-2005, 08:43 AM
I did have the ODD moment where tweak became an issue (with 415MS) but that was really nothing at all. I'd say that the MSX is more likely to tweak for sure but I think that it should be okay and won't shift throughout a run too much to notice. Its not like its like the Evo4 3 piece lower bulkheads that the std version used, that reeked of tweak but was still okay, you just needed to keep on top of it. All it means really is that you need to use the tweak station a bit more to keep things in order.
10-17-2005, 08:48 AM
I ran my car on carpet this past weekend. It was pretty decent considering I dont know the car, i guessed at a setup.. and I was on a BRAND NEW track, with new carpet.
The car could use a thicker, solid top plate and possibly the extra thick chassis. I am running on the 3mm chassis and the tweak problem some have described, on carpet anyway, could be remedied with a thicker chassis and top plate. My car didnt suffer any tweak issues once I had it setup and running correctly.. but the car is more flexible than one would like on the rug and I can see that if you are a less than perfect driver, you may have issues with tweak. Meaning, a good whack.. and it would be out a bit.
I am actually kind of impressed with the durability of this car. I dont crash much.. but i did hit a board or two with it and the only thing that broke was the stinkin HPI spindle carrier.
Is there another spindle carrier that will work on this car for foam tires? I ask because the akerman with the locations on this block VS the rack seems weird. Id almost like to add an extension to the block.
Im also BUMMED- i wanted the LWS kit because I thought it came with the aluminum rear hubs.. NOPE... the rear hubs that come with the kit are crap. they are so flexible. anyone have an extra set of the blue ones?
and whats with all the slop in this car??? I built this car with the suspension shimmed perfect- no slop, but the arms move freely. After 5 or 6 packs, youd think the car was 3 years old. ANd the castor blocks.. geees.. right out of the box.. SLOP..
But, this car is beutiful, and it was fast. I dont know how much I will compete with this car.. but it is definately intriguing..
//KBpower
The car could use a thicker, solid top plate and possibly the extra thick chassis. I am running on the 3mm chassis and the tweak problem some have described, on carpet anyway, could be remedied with a thicker chassis and top plate. My car didnt suffer any tweak issues once I had it setup and running correctly.. but the car is more flexible than one would like on the rug and I can see that if you are a less than perfect driver, you may have issues with tweak. Meaning, a good whack.. and it would be out a bit.
I am actually kind of impressed with the durability of this car. I dont crash much.. but i did hit a board or two with it and the only thing that broke was the stinkin HPI spindle carrier.
Is there another spindle carrier that will work on this car for foam tires? I ask because the akerman with the locations on this block VS the rack seems weird. Id almost like to add an extension to the block.
Im also BUMMED- i wanted the LWS kit because I thought it came with the aluminum rear hubs.. NOPE... the rear hubs that come with the kit are crap. they are so flexible. anyone have an extra set of the blue ones?
and whats with all the slop in this car??? I built this car with the suspension shimmed perfect- no slop, but the arms move freely. After 5 or 6 packs, youd think the car was 3 years old. ANd the castor blocks.. geees.. right out of the box.. SLOP..
But, this car is beutiful, and it was fast. I dont know how much I will compete with this car.. but it is definately intriguing..
//KBpower
10-17-2005, 09:02 AM
Martin Crisp won the 19T rubber class in Vegas a month ago using an MS with 3mm chassis and LW suspension. I came in second with an MS with 2.5mm chassis, LW and Promod suspension. The car is good on carpet with rubber tires. For mod, I should have opted for a slightly thicker chassis. In any event, the cars did not tweak unless we inadvertently try to move the track barriers 
TRF415boy: "No one at tamiya, they released it to make money. I said from the start that it'll be far easier to tweak than the original one. Besides, the original one has no tweak issues."
Cars tweak when you hit things HARD. The MSX (was called a KS by some) was a prototype chassis that was prepared days before the Reedy Race in order to lower CG and to provide easier maintenance. Those of us who run modified at large events tend to go through our cars on atleast a daily basis (rebuilding components, repairing replace worn parts, etc.) and some even rebuild between heats. So yes, easy access to key components helps. Now if the MSX had been a one off car that was not released, some people would be crying bloody murder. Now that it has, some people are still not satisfied. A classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. In any event, the MSX is a great car and definately a step forward in refinement.
TRF415boy: "No one at tamiya, they released it to make money. I said from the start that it'll be far easier to tweak than the original one. Besides, the original one has no tweak issues."
Cars tweak when you hit things HARD. The MSX (was called a KS by some) was a prototype chassis that was prepared days before the Reedy Race in order to lower CG and to provide easier maintenance. Those of us who run modified at large events tend to go through our cars on atleast a daily basis (rebuilding components, repairing replace worn parts, etc.) and some even rebuild between heats. So yes, easy access to key components helps. Now if the MSX had been a one off car that was not released, some people would be crying bloody murder. Now that it has, some people are still not satisfied. A classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. In any event, the MSX is a great car and definately a step forward in refinement.
10-17-2005, 09:11 AM
Hi Keith,
Is that the MSX you ran ? I find it to be very very flexible, especially with the 2.5mm chassis.
As for the hubs, the HPI are fine, use the outer hole as Spashett recommends. You can also use the rear HPI hubs if you don't want to buy the aluminium ones, they are 0° and fit if you re-drill the hinge pin hole. They'll give a more angled turnbuckle so you'll have to shim it more on the chassis side, and the locations for the turnbuckle are a bit different too, but it's fine, plus you'll have longer lasting bearings.
Regarding the slop, it may seem bad but the car just works, it's not excessive and anyway the amount of parts twisting under effort is more important than the slop.
Is that the MSX you ran ? I find it to be very very flexible, especially with the 2.5mm chassis.
As for the hubs, the HPI are fine, use the outer hole as Spashett recommends. You can also use the rear HPI hubs if you don't want to buy the aluminium ones, they are 0° and fit if you re-drill the hinge pin hole. They'll give a more angled turnbuckle so you'll have to shim it more on the chassis side, and the locations for the turnbuckle are a bit different too, but it's fine, plus you'll have longer lasting bearings.
Regarding the slop, it may seem bad but the car just works, it's not excessive and anyway the amount of parts twisting under effort is more important than the slop.
10-17-2005, 09:12 AM
Rod, what about the LW suspention?? SHould i get that for asphult? Socal/Tamiya? Its just that I went out and got the car then saw all this new stuff for it and did not know what to get. have not raced in like 2 years 
10-17-2005, 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by rtypec
Martin Crisp won the 19T rubber class in Vegas a month ago using an MS with 3mm chassis and LW suspension. I came in second with an MS with 2.5mm chassis, LW and Promod suspension. The car is good on carpet with rubber tires. For mod, I should have opted for a slightly thicker chassis. In any event, the cars did not tweak unless we inadvertently try to move the track barriers
TRF415boy: "No one at tamiya, they released it to make money. I said from the start that it'll be far easier to tweak than the original one. Besides, the original one has no tweak issues."
Cars tweak when you hit things HARD. The MSX (was called a KS by some) was a prototype chassis that was prepared days before the Reedy Race in order to lower CG and to provide easier maintenance. Those of us who run modified at large events tend to go through our cars on atleast a daily basis (rebuilding components, repairing replace worn parts, etc.) and some even rebuild between heats. So yes, easy access to key components helps. Now if the MSX had been a one off car that was not released, some people would be crying bloody murder. Now that it has, some people are still not satisfied. A classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. In any event, the MSX is a great car and definately a step forward in refinement.
TRF415boy: "No one at tamiya, they released it to make money. I said from the start that it'll be far easier to tweak than the original one. Besides, the original one has no tweak issues."
Cars tweak when you hit things HARD. The MSX (was called a KS by some) was a prototype chassis that was prepared days before the Reedy Race in order to lower CG and to provide easier maintenance. Those of us who run modified at large events tend to go through our cars on atleast a daily basis (rebuilding components, repairing replace worn parts, etc.) and some even rebuild between heats. So yes, easy access to key components helps. Now if the MSX had been a one off car that was not released, some people would be crying bloody murder. Now that it has, some people are still not satisfied. A classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. In any event, the MSX is a great car and definately a step forward in refinement.
As for tweak, I'm the first to say any car will tweak if you hit something, my point was that Tamiya never stated it was designed to get rid of the tweak, and that this design is more likely to tweak than the original one, due to the amount of parts in the bulkhead assembly. I'm not saying it's shit, or that they shouldn't have released it, just that people who think it won't tweak are wrong. It's a step forward in terms of performance and we all know performance comes at a cost.
I never found the 415 to have a tweak issue, it'd tweak on hard hits but then you know when you have to check the car.
10-17-2005, 09:25 AM
drew, it's kind of a catch22. I've never had a setup that worked at both Tamiya and Socal. I highly recommend the LW suspension with the Promod rear for the Tamiya America track. Download DJ's setup from either the Reedy Race or KOgp Race and put it on your car to the T (no deviations) and it will work.
As for socal, I honestly haven't run the LW suspension there because of either laziness or fear of breaking and thrashing to fix during those low-turn-out club nights. The standard car works well and so does most of the LW suspension equiped cars I see there.
As for socal, I honestly haven't run the LW suspension there because of either laziness or fear of breaking and thrashing to fix during those low-turn-out club nights. The standard car works well and so does most of the LW suspension equiped cars I see there.
10-17-2005, 09:29 AM
TRF415boy: What kind of carpet and tires do you run on, I'll try to post my setup from Vegas later. Keep in mind it was on new CRC carpet, Takeoff CS27's and Jack the Gripper for sauce.
Okay, here's the big *edit*. Thanks again to Martin for the "text layout"
Tires : glue half of front sidewall
Front
Front one way : yes
Center one way : yes
Droop : 25.1mm to top of axle
Springs: grey or purple
Oil: 400 Tamiya
Shock pos:
-third hole in on shock tower
-outer of two holes on arm
Inside Upper links : 1.7mm spacer
Ackerman : back holes on knuckles (front had too much mid corner oversteer and had one of the largest impacts on setup. Next time I would work on a setup based on a forward ackerman postition as I think this would have been a faster setup)
Blocks : d and d - no spacers
Wheelbase: standard
Caster : 2 degrees
Swaybars : yellow
Toeout: none
Wheel hub: 5mm
Ride height: 5mm
Lw suspension
Camber: 1.5
Rear
Droop : 25.5mm to top of axle
Springs: flourescent blue (from older spring set)
Oil: 200 Tamiya (DJ and I talked about going up in oil and we agreed that it would help so we decided to go to 600 front / 300 rear. Problem was is that I did it to the wrong car and in reality ran 400 / 200 the entire weekend. Woops)
Shock pos:
- I can't remember which hole in the rear but it was either all the way out or one in.
- Pro Mod hole on arm
Inside Upper links : 1.7 mm spacer
Outside upper link: no spacer
Upper link length: middle hole on upright
Blocks : XB/1D - no spacers
Upright : promod
Wheelbase: standard
Swaybars : yellow
Wheel hub : 5mm
Ride height: 5mm
Camber : 1.5
Chassis: 2.5mm
Mod Motor : Orion 7x1
Gearing : 102/24
Setup: MR Springs with Edge sprints
19 turn :Orion Element
Gearing : 102/42
Setup: Orion Red springs(no tweaks) with Fline +/-
Comm: .278-.279 to start
Break in after cut and rebrush: 1V for 10 minutes
Just like Martin's car "This setup had just a little push in mod but perfect in 19 turn. For 19 turn I ran the same setup of tires for all four qualifiers and the main. In mod I ran 2 sets of tires one on the first day of qualifying and the other for the second day of qualifying and the main. For mod I would probably make the following changes to add a little more steering.
* not glue front tire sidewall at all
* lay down front shocks one or two holes"
In hindsight, I should have stuck with having forward ackerman and finding a setup from there. Early on, the foward setting was faster but very hard to drive with the amount of mid corner steering it had (slight push going in and loads of steering when weight was transferred over the front. This was with rear traction as well, it wasn't loose). I ended up dumbing down the car completely to the point where it pushed really bad and slowly added steering back into it as I felt that it was easier to drive and run in crowds with.
All this being said, Martin's car was way better. Easy to drive, very smooth, carried corner speed, and well...was on average .3-.5s a lap faster. Good stuff Martin.
I hope this helps.
Okay, here's the big *edit*. Thanks again to Martin for the "text layout"
Tires : glue half of front sidewall
Front
Front one way : yes
Center one way : yes
Droop : 25.1mm to top of axle
Springs: grey or purple
Oil: 400 Tamiya
Shock pos:
-third hole in on shock tower
-outer of two holes on arm
Inside Upper links : 1.7mm spacer
Ackerman : back holes on knuckles (front had too much mid corner oversteer and had one of the largest impacts on setup. Next time I would work on a setup based on a forward ackerman postition as I think this would have been a faster setup)
Blocks : d and d - no spacers
Wheelbase: standard
Caster : 2 degrees
Swaybars : yellow
Toeout: none
Wheel hub: 5mm
Ride height: 5mm
Lw suspension
Camber: 1.5
Rear
Droop : 25.5mm to top of axle
Springs: flourescent blue (from older spring set)
Oil: 200 Tamiya (DJ and I talked about going up in oil and we agreed that it would help so we decided to go to 600 front / 300 rear. Problem was is that I did it to the wrong car and in reality ran 400 / 200 the entire weekend. Woops)
Shock pos:
- I can't remember which hole in the rear but it was either all the way out or one in.
- Pro Mod hole on arm
Inside Upper links : 1.7 mm spacer
Outside upper link: no spacer
Upper link length: middle hole on upright
Blocks : XB/1D - no spacers
Upright : promod
Wheelbase: standard
Swaybars : yellow
Wheel hub : 5mm
Ride height: 5mm
Camber : 1.5
Chassis: 2.5mm
Mod Motor : Orion 7x1
Gearing : 102/24
Setup: MR Springs with Edge sprints
19 turn :Orion Element
Gearing : 102/42
Setup: Orion Red springs(no tweaks) with Fline +/-
Comm: .278-.279 to start
Break in after cut and rebrush: 1V for 10 minutes
Just like Martin's car "This setup had just a little push in mod but perfect in 19 turn. For 19 turn I ran the same setup of tires for all four qualifiers and the main. In mod I ran 2 sets of tires one on the first day of qualifying and the other for the second day of qualifying and the main. For mod I would probably make the following changes to add a little more steering.
* not glue front tire sidewall at all
* lay down front shocks one or two holes"
In hindsight, I should have stuck with having forward ackerman and finding a setup from there. Early on, the foward setting was faster but very hard to drive with the amount of mid corner steering it had (slight push going in and loads of steering when weight was transferred over the front. This was with rear traction as well, it wasn't loose). I ended up dumbing down the car completely to the point where it pushed really bad and slowly added steering back into it as I felt that it was easier to drive and run in crowds with.
All this being said, Martin's car was way better. Easy to drive, very smooth, carried corner speed, and well...was on average .3-.5s a lap faster. Good stuff Martin.
I hope this helps.
Last edited by rtypec; 10-17-2005 at 09:58 AM.
10-17-2005, 09:31 AM
promod
Originally Posted by rtypec
Martin Crisp won the 19T rubber class in Vegas a month ago using an MS with 3mm chassis and LW suspension. I came in second with an MS with 2.5mm chassis, LW and Promod suspension. The car is good on carpet with rubber tires. For mod, I should have opted for a slightly thicker chassis. In any event, the cars did not tweak unless we inadvertently try to move the track barriers
TRF415boy: "No one at tamiya, they released it to make money. I said from the start that it'll be far easier to tweak than the original one. Besides, the original one has no tweak issues."
Cars tweak when you hit things HARD. The MSX (was called a KS by some) was a prototype chassis that was prepared days before the Reedy Race in order to lower CG and to provide easier maintenance. Those of us who run modified at large events tend to go through our cars on atleast a daily basis (rebuilding components, repairing replace worn parts, etc.) and some even rebuild between heats. So yes, easy access to key components helps. Now if the MSX had been a one off car that was not released, some people would be crying bloody murder. Now that it has, some people are still not satisfied. A classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. In any event, the MSX is a great car and definately a step forward in refinement.
TRF415boy: "No one at tamiya, they released it to make money. I said from the start that it'll be far easier to tweak than the original one. Besides, the original one has no tweak issues."
Cars tweak when you hit things HARD. The MSX (was called a KS by some) was a prototype chassis that was prepared days before the Reedy Race in order to lower CG and to provide easier maintenance. Those of us who run modified at large events tend to go through our cars on atleast a daily basis (rebuilding components, repairing replace worn parts, etc.) and some even rebuild between heats. So yes, easy access to key components helps. Now if the MSX had been a one off car that was not released, some people would be crying bloody murder. Now that it has, some people are still not satisfied. A classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. In any event, the MSX is a great car and definately a step forward in refinement.