Should Stock Brushed Motors go away in higher level events?
12-23-2008, 11:48 AM
#61
Tech Elite
iTrader: (42)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: anywhere I can race 2wd dirt,and 1/12 onroad in MI.
Posts: 3,891
Trader Rating: 42 (100%+)
Wrong. As usual.
It is impossible to come up with a ranking system that everyone will agree on. Also, there simply aren't enough racers for a national ranking system to be fair. Someone tried to do a national ranking system, and put a lot of energy into doing it. It failed miserably.
And what decline in touring car? If anything touring car is experiencing a strong surge, thanks to LiPo batteries and brushless motors. There are even some who have left 1/12 because they can't run lipo (yet).
Actually brushed stock motors really only have one home left, and that's 1/12 scale. And that's only because of the minimum weight limit which is being discussed. If the 1/12 limit is raised to take away the weight break that brushed motors have, everyone would run brushless motors in stock, save a few holdouts.
It is impossible to come up with a ranking system that everyone will agree on. Also, there simply aren't enough racers for a national ranking system to be fair. Someone tried to do a national ranking system, and put a lot of energy into doing it. It failed miserably.
And what decline in touring car? If anything touring car is experiencing a strong surge, thanks to LiPo batteries and brushless motors. There are even some who have left 1/12 because they can't run lipo (yet).
Actually brushed stock motors really only have one home left, and that's 1/12 scale. And that's only because of the minimum weight limit which is being discussed. If the 1/12 limit is raised to take away the weight break that brushed motors have, everyone would run brushless motors in stock, save a few holdouts.
12-23-2008, 11:59 AM
#63
Tech Adept
Possibly a magnet zapper too!
Don't throw that away yet. I guarantee someone will find away to zapp rotors for brushless motors yet.
Centering rotors in cans? The whole rotor is a magnet.
Putting the can in a oven to lower impedence. That's a old slotcar trick.
If someone wants or needs to find a advantage they will.
There is nothing funnier then watching people truing cap tires on a tire truer for banked oval racing.
Anyway.
The loss of brushed motors is not open to the general pubic. That is up to all the manufactures of the motors, the cost to build brush over brushless, it's when will they stop building brushed motors.
Those of us that still like to tinker with brushed motor will have to either move up to brushless or move on.
Brushless motor are only new to R/C. I've been using brushless motors in motor controls for over 30 years.
My biggest question is. What is Modified in the Brushless World?
3.5, 4.0., 6.5, 10.5 where does Stock end and Modified begin?
62 days and counting down.
Don't throw that away yet. I guarantee someone will find away to zapp rotors for brushless motors yet.
Centering rotors in cans? The whole rotor is a magnet.
Putting the can in a oven to lower impedence. That's a old slotcar trick.
If someone wants or needs to find a advantage they will.
There is nothing funnier then watching people truing cap tires on a tire truer for banked oval racing.
Anyway.
The loss of brushed motors is not open to the general pubic. That is up to all the manufactures of the motors, the cost to build brush over brushless, it's when will they stop building brushed motors.
Those of us that still like to tinker with brushed motor will have to either move up to brushless or move on.
Brushless motor are only new to R/C. I've been using brushless motors in motor controls for over 30 years.
My biggest question is. What is Modified in the Brushless World?
3.5, 4.0., 6.5, 10.5 where does Stock end and Modified begin?
62 days and counting down.
12-23-2008, 05:42 PM
#64
too much money in the wrong place
Comm cuts every run - Robitronics dyno, stacks of brushes and springs, comm lathe, brush cutting jig - naw thats MUCH cheaper then brushless.
at least if I'm 1.5 seconds off the pace - its because thats as good as I can drive and I didn't have to thrash motors for 2 hours - I just need to learn how to drive better and setup better.
12-23-2008, 06:01 PM
#65
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (23)
I will probably regret writing this, but...........I have just gotten back in to racing and have enough brushes/springs/etc to last for years and will continue to run brushed until I no longer can keep up. Yep, I'm a tight ass and don't feel like spending $250 just to make racing easier. One side of me says that if you want to run a brushed motor at the Nat's, why not? The other side says that in a big event like a Regional or National, everyone should be running the same thing. If you allow both, you give an even bigger advantage to the well connected "fast guys" as they will have whichever is the best choice for the class at their disposal from their sponsor companies.
And ironically, no matter which way it goes, the same guys will be in the top 10 anyway because they've worked their butts off to be one of the "fast guys".
And ironically, no matter which way it goes, the same guys will be in the top 10 anyway because they've worked their butts off to be one of the "fast guys".
12-23-2008, 06:04 PM
#66
Even the SnowBirds has just about dropped brushed motors. Only event left is 19t Oval truck.
So once again, IMO I say drop the brushed from regional and national events but keep the rules for local racers that have not yet switched to brushless. Also, any new electric classes added must be brushless only. Just in case ROAR wants to make 3.7V 1:12 legal soon that class should be Lipo only, Brushless only to prevent problems later.
Maybe next year there can be a Brushed Motor Dyno spin-off. A calibrated dyno with a robust powersupply is on hand and racers just bring in a tuned 27, 19T or Mod motors and the racer with the best slip in each class wins some loot. No racing, No time schedules, just an open side event to the actual races when people are looking to pass the time between the G-main and the A-main.
So once again, IMO I say drop the brushed from regional and national events but keep the rules for local racers that have not yet switched to brushless. Also, any new electric classes added must be brushless only. Just in case ROAR wants to make 3.7V 1:12 legal soon that class should be Lipo only, Brushless only to prevent problems later.
Maybe next year there can be a Brushed Motor Dyno spin-off. A calibrated dyno with a robust powersupply is on hand and racers just bring in a tuned 27, 19T or Mod motors and the racer with the best slip in each class wins some loot. No racing, No time schedules, just an open side event to the actual races when people are looking to pass the time between the G-main and the A-main.
12-23-2008, 07:31 PM
#67
Hi Dawn,
PM me your address and I will send you a box of retired brushed motors.
Too passe for me...And I'm old... LOL
Bill
PM me your address and I will send you a box of retired brushed motors.
Too passe for me...And I'm old... LOL
Bill
12-23-2008, 07:31 PM
#68
I have been gone for the better part of 2 years. My last race was the 07' carpet nats.
One of the main reasons I came back was Brushless/Lipo. Imagine- running your car and not having to throw a pair of brushes on after every run. I like== I like it A LOT.
SO-- I will be running BL/lipo.. I want to come to the carpet nats.. but i fear that if BL and Brushed are run in Touring-- somehow- there will be an advantage to running brushed. It would just be my luck.
I think BL only at national events is wise. At the very least- for selfish reasons.
One of the main reasons I came back was Brushless/Lipo. Imagine- running your car and not having to throw a pair of brushes on after every run. I like== I like it A LOT.
SO-- I will be running BL/lipo.. I want to come to the carpet nats.. but i fear that if BL and Brushed are run in Touring-- somehow- there will be an advantage to running brushed. It would just be my luck.
I think BL only at national events is wise. At the very least- for selfish reasons.
12-23-2008, 08:09 PM
#69
I run brushless 17.5 in both my 12th and TA car. I like brushless. But one thing I am so sick of hearing is that people complaining about working on brushed motors. In all honesty it makes you sound lazy.
Second, the argument I can make is that bl is cheaper. A good bl system costs about as much as 8 brushed motors before you dump in all of the money of brushes and what not. For me, the system paid for itself last year. So that's one plus.
Third, stock should be somewhat equal. But I have noticed that in an 8 minute race a brushed motor starts out faster but fades so bad at about the 6 minute mark it ends up being pretty close.
Fourth, I love gearing the piss out of my car. In my 12th scale I'm at a 80mm roll out!
All that being said, I would be all for banning brushed motors at large events and after a couple of years, we will all be brushless.
Second, the argument I can make is that bl is cheaper. A good bl system costs about as much as 8 brushed motors before you dump in all of the money of brushes and what not. For me, the system paid for itself last year. So that's one plus.
Third, stock should be somewhat equal. But I have noticed that in an 8 minute race a brushed motor starts out faster but fades so bad at about the 6 minute mark it ends up being pretty close.
Fourth, I love gearing the piss out of my car. In my 12th scale I'm at a 80mm roll out!
All that being said, I would be all for banning brushed motors at large events and after a couple of years, we will all be brushless.
12-23-2008, 10:09 PM
#71
Bob,
I agree, that's how they should be separated. There shouldn't be stock, super stock, mod, etc. I think Cleveland would have been a lot more interesting if it was just 1/12th, Rubber Sedan, Foam Sedan, and GT.
It would be awesome if it was just mod. That's how Europe and Asia run.
Yeah, you have the specialty slow classes like VTA.
Money/cost isn't a factor when it comes to competitiveness. At the tracks I frequent, my xxx-s and 12L4 won me a few races. I'm excited to run a TC5 this winter in Billings. Don't worry, my yearly budget to Stormer Hobbies isn't about to drop below $1500 per year any time soon! Just means that I buy more cars and tires instead of motors.
Paul
I agree, that's how they should be separated. There shouldn't be stock, super stock, mod, etc. I think Cleveland would have been a lot more interesting if it was just 1/12th, Rubber Sedan, Foam Sedan, and GT.
It would be awesome if it was just mod. That's how Europe and Asia run.
Yeah, you have the specialty slow classes like VTA.
Money/cost isn't a factor when it comes to competitiveness. At the tracks I frequent, my xxx-s and 12L4 won me a few races. I'm excited to run a TC5 this winter in Billings. Don't worry, my yearly budget to Stormer Hobbies isn't about to drop below $1500 per year any time soon! Just means that I buy more cars and tires instead of motors.
Paul
12-23-2008, 11:23 PM
#72
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (6)
Nobody from ROAR is talking about eliminating brushed motors. Of course brushed motors have a place in RC racing and I'm sure they'll be around for a couple more years at the club level. What we're talking about is limiting ROAR National and Super Regional level 4 and 5 events to brushless only. Nothing more nothing less.
Super Stock is 13.5 brushless per ROAR rules in '09, I can't remember the last time I saw someone running brushed in modified why still have brushed in stock at level 4 and 5 national and super region events? Doesn't it male sense that everyone is playing on the same field with the spec equipment?
Super Stock is 13.5 brushless per ROAR rules in '09, I can't remember the last time I saw someone running brushed in modified why still have brushed in stock at level 4 and 5 national and super region events? Doesn't it male sense that everyone is playing on the same field with the spec equipment?
12-24-2008, 02:19 AM
#73
Money/cost isn't a factor when it comes t competitiveness. At the tracks I frequent, my xxx-s and 12L4 won me a few races. I'm excited to run a TC5 this winter in Billings. Don't worry, my yearly budget to Stormer Hobbies isn't about to drop below $1500 per year any time soon! Just means that I buy more cars and tires instead of motors.
Paul
12-24-2008, 05:58 AM
#74
Tech Master
iTrader: (21)
Maybe allow a time frame.I have 2 kids who race with me.Not that we frequent large events much anymore but...It is taking time to convert over to brushless.I'm doing 5 systems,maybe 6.Thats alot of expense(where is it cheaper???Just kidding).There is 2 races coming up in January that I/we were interested in attending but...They are limiting to Brushless only.Feeling kind of Hijacked about this.We won't be attending them.Promoters???Maybe we can set a not too distant future date but still allow both in this "transition"period.Really,in the end it's the driving. Should it really matter one way or the other??We race 13.5/19T at the local track.We have fun and great competition each week.anyway,work calls.Mario.
Just kidding).There is 2 races coming up in January that I/we were interested in attending but...They are limiting to Brushless only.Feeling kind of Hijacked about this.We won't be attending them.Promoters???Maybe we can set a not too distant future date but still allow both in this "transition"period.Really,in the end it's the driving. Should it really matter one way or the other??We race 13.5/19T at the local track.We have fun and great competition each week.anyway,work calls.Mario.
12-24-2008, 08:16 AM
#75
