Pro10 Class
02-08-2008, 04:22 PM
#421
Thanks bro!!!
Bout time you get into on road Mike!
02-08-2008, 06:52 PM
#422
So no, I'd say the sooner a general spec for 200mm pan is decided the better (and EASIER) for everybody.
02-08-2008, 06:55 PM
#423
AND PRO10's
Fixed lower A-arms and 4-cell is what makes a pan-car a pan car. This is not a touring car, if you want those features go back to Sedan.
A Pro10 car has more incommon with a 1:12 scale car than any other type of car on the market. In that respect, a PRO10 car has alot in common with 1:10 oval. They all use similar front ends, rear ends and 4-cells.
Why change the versitality of my spare parts. I have driven sedan for a few years and filled my pit bag busting with spare parts.
Now that I just drive 1:12 and 1:10 oval, my pit bag is about 20# lighter. Many of the spare parts can be transfered between cars including my batteries. If I were to start racing PRO10 the only thing I need to do is place that car in my car hauler bag and go racing. I already own the shims, ride hieghts adjustors, bearings, tires, lubes, springs, piviot balls and other items to get that car rolling.
Leave independant suspension and 6-cell packs for off-road and Sedans. Keep what works and the cost down by keeping all four classes of pan cars the same:
Fixed lower A-arms and 4-cell is what makes a pan-car a pan car. This is not a touring car, if you want those features go back to Sedan.
A Pro10 car has more incommon with a 1:12 scale car than any other type of car on the market. In that respect, a PRO10 car has alot in common with 1:10 oval. They all use similar front ends, rear ends and 4-cells.
Why change the versitality of my spare parts. I have driven sedan for a few years and filled my pit bag busting with spare parts.
Now that I just drive 1:12 and 1:10 oval, my pit bag is about 20# lighter. Many of the spare parts can be transfered between cars including my batteries. If I were to start racing PRO10 the only thing I need to do is place that car in my car hauler bag and go racing. I already own the shims, ride hieghts adjustors, bearings, tires, lubes, springs, piviot balls and other items to get that car rolling.
Leave independant suspension and 6-cell packs for off-road and Sedans. Keep what works and the cost down by keeping all four classes of pan cars the same:
1/10 Scale needs 6 Cells so it can get out of it's own way! I raced 1/10th scale 19 Turn 4 Cell oval for a couple of months=BORRRRRINNNNGGGG! I had more fun with my 6 cell 1900mh SK Spec car! It cost 1/4 of a Pan Car set-up and was only .2 off 19t per lap! And it was FASTER then the 1/10th scale "STOCK" Class. Piranha Batteries were $18.99 and bulletproof! While the $50.00 4200 4-cells were just Hissing up a Storm and going Slow. Oh yeah the 19 Turns were $65.00 the Stockers were $40.00 and my Tamiya 540 was $18.99. You don't have to spend a bunch of money to go fast in RC racing!
02-08-2008, 08:10 PM
#425
Unfortunately this just makes it tougher when it's time to choose a spec. Look at what happened with brushless motors. Everybody did whatever for 2 years, then when ROAR was about to make a decision it became a huge, polarizing argument between 10.5 or 13.5 being the new "Superstock" 19T replacement. Not surprisingly, the folks supporting 10.5 were mostly folks who already had 10.5 motors and the 13.5 supporters already had 13.5's. ROAR pulled a King Solomon and cut the baby in two to make this choice.
So no, I'd say the sooner a general spec for 200mm pan is decided the better (and EASIER) for everybody.
So no, I'd say the sooner a general spec for 200mm pan is decided the better (and EASIER) for everybody.
This is a definitely good point. That is why I posted what I did a few pages back...I think if we can get an established rule set from the get go (much like they did with VTA) that will only help the class to grow, and yet still give enough leeway to the clubs that might want to do things a little different. The nice thing with 4 cell is the fact that you have many folks (both in road course and oval) that already have 4 cell packs so you can create a good core base and then when TC folks see how much fun it is (it should be very much about fun first since this is a hobby), they would not have a problem moving over from the 6 cell touring classes. I also think that having brushed and comparable brushless motors for the spec would draw in folks from both of those camps.
02-08-2008, 08:18 PM
#426
1/10 Scale needs 6 Cells so it can get out of it's own way! I raced 1/10th scale 19 Turn 4 Cell oval for a couple of months=BORRRRRINNNNGGGG! I had more fun with my 6 cell 1900mh SK Spec car! It cost 1/4 of a Pan Car set-up and was only .2 off 19t per lap! And it was FASTER then the 1/10th scale "STOCK" Class. Piranha Batteries were $18.99 and bulletproof! While the $50.00 4200 4-cells were just Hissing up a Storm and going Slow. Oh yeah the 19 Turns were $65.00 the Stockers were $40.00 and my Tamiya 540 was $18.99. You don't have to spend a bunch of money to go fast in RC racing!
02-08-2008, 10:08 PM
#427
I guess I really don't know what I'd expect out of this class...and much as I hate to say I doubt we'd get folks here to participate so it probably doesn't really even matter to me what the general spec ends up being.
I've got a couple concerns about 4-cell.
First, is it REALLY going to be a different driving experience than 1/12? I vehemently believe that if we're creating a new class that it needs to be a DISTINCTLY different driving experience than what's already out there. A 200mm pan car seems, conceptually, to me like it's just a 1/12 car on steroids. It's less than 15% bigger but with substantially more rubber on the ground. It seems the number(s) I've seen thrown around they're targeting about 20-25% or so more weight than a 1/12 car. Is it really going to be enough different (especially if GTP bodies are run) to really warrant inclusion?
Second 4-cell concern is that like it or not, LiPo is the coming thing. I have ZERO problems with NiMH batteries and am running my packs I bought a year ago October that have been strictly maintained as SMC recommended and still kick out great numbers and performance. BUT...LiPo ain't "coming", it's here. I think creating any new class around NiMH is futile. Yeah I know it'd be cheaper to plop batteries back and forth from my 1/12 cars to a 200mm pan but you know what? I also know that racing costs money, and sometimes the right decision costs a little now to save a lot in the future. We really don't know how long Sub-C NiMH are going to be around, probably "a while", but how long is that? And is it really a "cost savings" to try to attract a TC racer who only has LiPo and equipment to deal with those and tell them they need NiMH and chargers, dischargers, etc? Of course it isn't, but now that ROAR has embraced LiPo and bl (for better or worse) these racers I'm describing will no longer be the exception...they're quickly going to become the rule. I keep hearing people say the class will capture disenfranchised TC racers, but then we see a class being designed to make it easy to transition from 1/12. I guess the honest question we have to ask is "Which is it?".
So if LiPo is the answer, I'd further assert that 2S is the answer ('cause I AIN'T adding the pita of receiver packs...I just wouldn't play). Maybe the way to keep speeds in check is to start out with 2s LiPo against a 21.5 motor? Would that be slow enough? I'd bet it would still be a bunch quicker than a 17.5 "Stock" TC. Then the "fast" class could be with that 17.5 motor (if they ever become available again).
Random musings. I just would hate to see a new class created that's backed into a corner from the start.
I've got a couple concerns about 4-cell.
First, is it REALLY going to be a different driving experience than 1/12? I vehemently believe that if we're creating a new class that it needs to be a DISTINCTLY different driving experience than what's already out there. A 200mm pan car seems, conceptually, to me like it's just a 1/12 car on steroids. It's less than 15% bigger but with substantially more rubber on the ground. It seems the number(s) I've seen thrown around they're targeting about 20-25% or so more weight than a 1/12 car. Is it really going to be enough different (especially if GTP bodies are run) to really warrant inclusion?
Second 4-cell concern is that like it or not, LiPo is the coming thing. I have ZERO problems with NiMH batteries and am running my packs I bought a year ago October that have been strictly maintained as SMC recommended and still kick out great numbers and performance. BUT...LiPo ain't "coming", it's here. I think creating any new class around NiMH is futile. Yeah I know it'd be cheaper to plop batteries back and forth from my 1/12 cars to a 200mm pan but you know what? I also know that racing costs money, and sometimes the right decision costs a little now to save a lot in the future. We really don't know how long Sub-C NiMH are going to be around, probably "a while", but how long is that? And is it really a "cost savings" to try to attract a TC racer who only has LiPo and equipment to deal with those and tell them they need NiMH and chargers, dischargers, etc? Of course it isn't, but now that ROAR has embraced LiPo and bl (for better or worse) these racers I'm describing will no longer be the exception...they're quickly going to become the rule. I keep hearing people say the class will capture disenfranchised TC racers, but then we see a class being designed to make it easy to transition from 1/12. I guess the honest question we have to ask is "Which is it?".
So if LiPo is the answer, I'd further assert that 2S is the answer ('cause I AIN'T adding the pita of receiver packs...I just wouldn't play). Maybe the way to keep speeds in check is to start out with 2s LiPo against a 21.5 motor? Would that be slow enough? I'd bet it would still be a bunch quicker than a 17.5 "Stock" TC. Then the "fast" class could be with that 17.5 motor (if they ever become available again).
Random musings. I just would hate to see a new class created that's backed into a corner from the start.
02-09-2008, 12:58 AM
#428
Well, like it was stated before. Run whatever power plant your track decides. And things will sort themselves out. No need to bitch about 4cell vs 6cell vs lipo at this time. Let the "new" 200mm cars come out and see what they have to offer. If there is a concern about nimh being around, you have to be concerned about the future of 12th scale as well as oval. But I'm not concerned. So it doesnt matter to me. Just waiting to get my hands on one of these new cars!!!
02-09-2008, 02:33 AM
#429
This is getting rather boring reading about people that have no clue about 1/10th pan cars. Is it a new class - "NO" but the power plant is- brushless and the coming lipos that's it! Narrow cars - Associated had a 1/11th narrow car at a worlds event.It didn't last long.Racing with GT -GTP- IMSA- Formula one/ Indy bodies. It's all been done before.Wide rear tires and narrow. The main reason for the cars coming now is what has been explained the price of Touring Cars and there up keep.But you'll here people complain about the price of these new pan cars. They will still be cheaper to run than a TC.
So face it the class will be 4 cells and whatever your group wants to run for a motor.With lipos- that will be about the same as a 4 cell pack hard packs, then it will be the norm.This is the big year of change for the R/C industry.You'll just have to wait and see what's coming out next.Especially some new and old manufactuers in this class.
So face it the class will be 4 cells and whatever your group wants to run for a motor.With lipos- that will be about the same as a 4 cell pack hard packs, then it will be the norm.This is the big year of change for the R/C industry.You'll just have to wait and see what's coming out next.Especially some new and old manufactuers in this class.
02-09-2008, 03:53 AM
#430
I'll tell you what is getting boring, this kind of thing:
No, the class will not be 4 cell. Pro10 is 6 cell now. Every country has rules and they are 6 cell.
If some clubs in usa insist on forcing 4 cell then so be it, bad for the future of the class but it's up to them.
It's a shame that 1/12th has ending up in the nimh trap, at least pro10 wont be.
If some clubs in usa insist on forcing 4 cell then so be it, bad for the future of the class but it's up to them.
It's a shame that 1/12th has ending up in the nimh trap, at least pro10 wont be.
02-09-2008, 05:26 AM
#431
You'll notice that the chassis manufactures have just room for 4 cells on many of the new 200mm cars. Now if they want to race 6 cells across the pond so be it. What brought back oval racing in the USA- 4 cell.The same for 1/12th and now 1/10th pancars.......Boring is having so few new racers at local-state-regional- national races.TC is getting to expensive.With 4 cell you can go out and get 2- 6 cell packs and make 3 race packs.Or when the lipos are ready one lipo.Nobody is forcing you to race this class.If you don't like the class keep racing TC.
02-09-2008, 05:36 AM
#432
This 4 or 6 cell thing is indeed boring.
Just wait until the car is released and someone test it. You can be slow or fast with 4 or 6 cells, depends on the motor. You can buy cheap sub c cells, 4 or 6 will just be some dollars of difference. You can run endurance races easily with 6 cell but you tire wear will be lower with 4.
so many things to consider..........
AHhhh..... You dont have 4 cell size lipos.........
Just wait until the car is released and someone test it. You can be slow or fast with 4 or 6 cells, depends on the motor. You can buy cheap sub c cells, 4 or 6 will just be some dollars of difference. You can run endurance races easily with 6 cell but you tire wear will be lower with 4.
so many things to consider..........
AHhhh..... You dont have 4 cell size lipos.........
02-09-2008, 06:00 AM
#433
Now if they want to race 6 cells across the pond so be it. What brought back oval racing in the USA- 4 cell.The same for 1/12th and now 1/10th pancars.......
The main difference with 4 cell is the reduction in power which is easily achievable with wind limits. At the time that 1/12th went 4 cell there was no lipo on the horizon. It made sense because it was a small space for 6 cells and 4 cells are cheeper than 6. The fact the cars run for 8 minutes instead of 5 also means the cell are not stressed like they would be in pro10.
Boring is having so few new racers at local-state-regional- national races.TC is getting to expensive.With 4 cell you can go out and get 2- 6 cell packs and make 3 race packs.Or when the lipos are ready one lipo.Nobody is forcing you to race this class.If you don't like the class keep racing TC.
If you go 4 cell there may be cars released with no intention of fitting a lipo pack and what's more everyone will have the wrong motors and esc. If you buy a 4 cell only car with a 2.5t motor how is that going to mean an easy move to lipo?
And I'm sick of people saying 4 cell is cheep. In pro10 I can think of nothing worse. You will be consistently dumping the entire pack in a 5 minute race to get he max performance with a 2.5t motor. The cell will last a handfull of race meetings at most.
10.5t brushless with a 5000mah 20c lipo means that you pack will come off the charger cool and after the race they will still be cool and ready to go back on the charger again. Only 1 pack required that is so under stressed it will last you all year.
You cannot tell people who want the class to stay open to 6 cell to just shut up. Because one manufacture has already shown a prototype of a 4 cell only chassis so how is this fair?
The only credible reason to use 4 cell I have seen is that you already own the packs
edit- I also run Bikes, Offroad, TC and Tamiya tt01 and my single lipo fits in all of them
.
02-09-2008, 06:09 AM
#434
I find it funny that all you guys want to run Lipo when NONE of you have the nerve to run mod sedan. Guess what...a 17.5 and a lipo pack in any of these cars will go FASTER than a Mod 6 cell sedan.
I started racing with 1/10th pan cars back in 1989. Our equipment was pretty hurting back then. I normal guy could buy a car and a stock motor and get going without too much trouble.
Fast forward to 1999...new batts, tires and stock motors made the cars ballistic. I tried to get my uncle started running stock 6 cell 235mm pan car and he struggled. With cheap batteries and an off the shelf stock motor the car was faster then the mod sedans. This was outdoors on fairly big tracks. It was WAY WORSE for the guys running indoors.
There was no path to get guys started at a speed they could handle. This was one of the major reasons the class died.
Oval saw this and switched to 4 cell and it saved the class. There 1/10th is more popular than 1/12th.
1/12th switched to 4 cell to reduce speeds and it was successful too. Right now 1/12th is the fastest growing on road class with larger entries than the sedan classes at most major races.
I have been racing Stock, 19T and Mod 4 cell 1/12 for the last 6 years. None of these classes are slow in any way shape or form.
If you think 4 cell is slow check out the Snowbirds 4 cell stock A main video on www.rc50.com. It is quick and fun. If you want more speed run 19t/10.5 4 cell and you will be going as fast as mod 6 cell sedans. If you really want to go fast run mod 4 cell.
You guys are knocking something I doubt most of you have actually tried.
I started racing with 1/10th pan cars back in 1989. Our equipment was pretty hurting back then. I normal guy could buy a car and a stock motor and get going without too much trouble.
Fast forward to 1999...new batts, tires and stock motors made the cars ballistic. I tried to get my uncle started running stock 6 cell 235mm pan car and he struggled. With cheap batteries and an off the shelf stock motor the car was faster then the mod sedans. This was outdoors on fairly big tracks. It was WAY WORSE for the guys running indoors.
There was no path to get guys started at a speed they could handle. This was one of the major reasons the class died.
Oval saw this and switched to 4 cell and it saved the class. There 1/10th is more popular than 1/12th.
1/12th switched to 4 cell to reduce speeds and it was successful too. Right now 1/12th is the fastest growing on road class with larger entries than the sedan classes at most major races.
I have been racing Stock, 19T and Mod 4 cell 1/12 for the last 6 years. None of these classes are slow in any way shape or form.
If you think 4 cell is slow check out the Snowbirds 4 cell stock A main video on www.rc50.com. It is quick and fun. If you want more speed run 19t/10.5 4 cell and you will be going as fast as mod 6 cell sedans. If you really want to go fast run mod 4 cell.
You guys are knocking something I doubt most of you have actually tried.
02-09-2008, 06:16 AM
#435
Maybe itīs a split between USA and Europe then. For Germany there are still the 235mm wide and 6 cells rules for Pro10, only change for this year was 2cell Lipos are allowed now also. I know there are ideas of a second (unofficial) class with 200mm wide and 19T brushed/9.5T BL motorlimit. But for sure there will be no 4 cell racing. Pro10 usually is run outdoor only on big tracks here so 4cell makes no sense. I think for the drivers from the Netherlands itīs the same, maybe beside the Lipos.
So if some manufactures are limiting their chassis to 4 cells only they wonīt be selling any cars to Europe. The new CRC car is perfect in this direction, so you could run whatever battery you want/ the rules allow. Maybe they did think a little more than others.
So if some manufactures are limiting their chassis to 4 cells only they wonīt be selling any cars to Europe. The new CRC car is perfect in this direction, so you could run whatever battery you want/ the rules allow. Maybe they did think a little more than others.