IB4600
11-23-2007, 06:46 PM
#46
From Sosidge
"Now what WOULD work in my opinion is a much lower maximum cell weight. Insist on cells being under something like 60gms (instead of current cells which are 70-ish) and you will have a much lower performance cell straight away because there just wouldn't be enough electrolyte in there!"
This is a bright idea covering a whole bunch of relationships including the Li po thing. Plenty of scope here.
"Now what WOULD work in my opinion is a much lower maximum cell weight. Insist on cells being under something like 60gms (instead of current cells which are 70-ish) and you will have a much lower performance cell straight away because there just wouldn't be enough electrolyte in there!"
This is a bright idea covering a whole bunch of relationships including the Li po thing. Plenty of scope here.
11-23-2007, 09:04 PM
#47
Interesting how easy people make comments when they don't know all the facts!!
Size limit is there for 1 year!!! IB, GP never complied (they only said we can't do that!) and EFRA overlooked for some reason this issue based on a small window on the rules. Now this window is closed
Orion managed to find a factory after searching for 1 year, that can build cells per their specifications BASED on EFRA rules and they released it.
Size limit is there for 1 year!!! IB, GP never complied (they only said we can't do that!) and EFRA overlooked for some reason this issue based on a small window on the rules. Now this window is closed
Orion managed to find a factory after searching for 1 year, that can build cells per their specifications BASED on EFRA rules and they released it.
When shorter cells will be released expect less runtime.
11-23-2007, 09:31 PM
#48
11-23-2007, 10:58 PM
#50
11-23-2007, 11:00 PM
#51
11-24-2007, 01:24 AM
#52
Tech Adept
The talk around the BRCA 1/12th national pits is for a one OEM source/one manufacturer spec cell. I guess the distributers/matchers could shrink this up in any way they like but we are looking to a single source spec cell, made for RC to a cirtain capacity/size/performance/reliability/price breakpoint.
End of.
I am not saying this will happen but we no longer need cell development. We have all the performance and capacity we need. What we need now is reliability, consistentcy and a good deal for customers.
Cheers
Mark
End of.
I am not saying this will happen but we no longer need cell development. We have all the performance and capacity we need. What we need now is reliability, consistentcy and a good deal for customers.
Cheers
Mark
11-24-2007, 06:38 AM
#53
Tech Fanatic
Ain't the internet a wonderful thing - people post complete crap and then dicuss it...
The BRCA and EFRA rule is that the dimension for length is 43mm +0/-1.5mm. That hasn't changed for years. What did change was that, as Danny says, when you use them they deform. So, BRCA and EFRA amended their Rule to say that the cell must not exceed 44mm in length at any time. Without this, drivers could have their race time disallowed, through not fault of their own, by having a used cell in their pack that was over 43mm.
IFMAR's Rule is 44mm max - no tolerance; end of...
Some cell manufacturers have taken advantage of this, produced cells over 43mm in length, and cited the '44mm' Rule when challenged. EFRA and BRCA decided last year to remove the 44mm Rule, and advised the manufacturers that from the release of the new homologations lists (31 Dec 07 submission dealine for BRCA) effective 1 April 2008, no cell over 43mm would be allowed for racing - the 44mm Rule, put in by BRCA/EFRA to help its drivers, will be deleted. The manufacturers have had 14 months notice. (I also believe that the International Standard for a sub-C cell is 43mm max, and that was what the original Rule was based from).
The original dimensions have remained unchanged for may years; there is no change of dimension that the manufacturer's aren't aware of, and when this is adopted it will be up to manufacturer's whether they continue to make '44mm' cells for non-European markets. If they do, cells from the USA (for example) won't be allowed in Europe.
As the photo shows, it is my understanding that the new Orion cell is 42mm nominal. Orion were told at the same time as every other manufacturer what the new Rule would be (14 months ago) and they have done something about it. IB have no one but themselves to look at, since it is their faulty cells that kicked off this debate (as Danny points out) and in an effort to reduce the risk to everyone, BRCA and EFRA have reverted to the original Rule.
All the other sub-C cells we don't use any more are below 43 mm (some 42mm nominal) so there is no change to dimensions. We don't use them because they don't give the performance of IBs, but they are as robust as cells always were. IB have pushed the envelope, and it is a generally held view that they have pushed it too far, and lost control of the quality in the process. I expect my National Association to give me the best guidance, and to do what's best for RC - BRCA/EFRA are doing just that.
As for capacity, I know of no class where capacity is an issue to the average driver any more, including 12th. To say we're all going to hell in a handcart because the capacity is going down isn't responsible. HTH
The BRCA and EFRA rule is that the dimension for length is 43mm +0/-1.5mm. That hasn't changed for years. What did change was that, as Danny says, when you use them they deform. So, BRCA and EFRA amended their Rule to say that the cell must not exceed 44mm in length at any time. Without this, drivers could have their race time disallowed, through not fault of their own, by having a used cell in their pack that was over 43mm.
IFMAR's Rule is 44mm max - no tolerance; end of...
Some cell manufacturers have taken advantage of this, produced cells over 43mm in length, and cited the '44mm' Rule when challenged. EFRA and BRCA decided last year to remove the 44mm Rule, and advised the manufacturers that from the release of the new homologations lists (31 Dec 07 submission dealine for BRCA) effective 1 April 2008, no cell over 43mm would be allowed for racing - the 44mm Rule, put in by BRCA/EFRA to help its drivers, will be deleted. The manufacturers have had 14 months notice. (I also believe that the International Standard for a sub-C cell is 43mm max, and that was what the original Rule was based from).
The original dimensions have remained unchanged for may years; there is no change of dimension that the manufacturer's aren't aware of, and when this is adopted it will be up to manufacturer's whether they continue to make '44mm' cells for non-European markets. If they do, cells from the USA (for example) won't be allowed in Europe.
As the photo shows, it is my understanding that the new Orion cell is 42mm nominal. Orion were told at the same time as every other manufacturer what the new Rule would be (14 months ago) and they have done something about it. IB have no one but themselves to look at, since it is their faulty cells that kicked off this debate (as Danny points out) and in an effort to reduce the risk to everyone, BRCA and EFRA have reverted to the original Rule.
All the other sub-C cells we don't use any more are below 43 mm (some 42mm nominal) so there is no change to dimensions. We don't use them because they don't give the performance of IBs, but they are as robust as cells always were. IB have pushed the envelope, and it is a generally held view that they have pushed it too far, and lost control of the quality in the process. I expect my National Association to give me the best guidance, and to do what's best for RC - BRCA/EFRA are doing just that.
As for capacity, I know of no class where capacity is an issue to the average driver any more, including 12th. To say we're all going to hell in a handcart because the capacity is going down isn't responsible. HTH
11-24-2007, 09:54 AM
#54
All these new Nk-Ml cells and not one am I interested in racing with ....
Thats what happens when you already have Carbon Li-Po`s.....
Why do I use them ?
Sure is`nt because of capacity !!!
Its
because they have proven to be the most durable , fastest & most convenient cells ever introduce to the racing community .....
Thats what happens when you already have Carbon Li-Po`s.....
Why do I use them ?
Sure is`nt because of capacity !!!
Its
because they have proven to be the most durable , fastest & most convenient cells ever introduce to the racing community .....
11-24-2007, 10:20 AM
#55
We know who makes the cells Orion is using and so far this company seems to be making cells with decent numbers but in our testing the capacity is already a bit low with there 43.2 - 43.5mm cell and it seems to drop in capacity real easily so this is not an improvement in reliability as some may think and want.
I will say it again keep the cells at the current specs and just enforce a maximum weight so capacity stops increasing. I'm not sure where EFRA and BRCA gets there info from or what they think they will accomplish by this smaller cell but it makes no sense. A smaller cell has nothing to do with reliability in fact it will most likely hurt reliability as every manufacturer will try and outdo each other.
I will say it again keep the cells at the current specs and just enforce a maximum weight so capacity stops increasing. I'm not sure where EFRA and BRCA gets there info from or what they think they will accomplish by this smaller cell but it makes no sense. A smaller cell has nothing to do with reliability in fact it will most likely hurt reliability as every manufacturer will try and outdo each other.
11-24-2007, 11:32 AM
#56
11-24-2007, 10:21 PM
#57
11-24-2007, 10:24 PM
#58
All these new Nk-Ml cells and not one am I interested in racing with ....
Thats what happens when you already have Carbon Li-Po`s.....
Why do I use them ?
Sure is`nt because of capacity !!!
Its
because they have proven to be the most durable , fastest & most convenient cells ever introduce to the racing community .....
Thats what happens when you already have Carbon Li-Po`s.....
Why do I use them ?
Sure is`nt because of capacity !!!
Its
because they have proven to be the most durable , fastest & most convenient cells ever introduce to the racing community .....
11-24-2007, 11:42 PM
#59
So with IB4600 coming to town where are the lipo's since organizations like EFRA and JMRCA has reduced the numbers of cells for racing. Let's see what GP batteries have for us next year, GP4800,GP4900 or maybe GP5000? The batterywar continues..................
11-25-2007, 12:59 AM
#60
Tech Fanatic
Instead of controlling a cells length which is hard to control due to cell expansion due to charging and heat they should make a capacity rule which would keep manufaturers from increasing the capacity.
I seriously think EFRA needs to talk with cell manufaturers so they understand the negative effects of reducing the cells length.
I seriously think EFRA needs to talk with cell manufaturers so they understand the negative effects of reducing the cells length.
We know who makes the cells Orion is using and so far this company seems to be making cells with decent numbers but in our testing the capacity is already a bit low...
I will say it again keep the cells at the current specs and just enforce a maximum weight so capacity stops increasing...
I will say it again keep the cells at the current specs and just enforce a maximum weight so capacity stops increasing...
The problem here in Europe is not capacity, or the fact that the cells occasionally drop out; it is the fact that there are faults in the cells, and they are suffering uncontained failures that have already resulted in partial loss of eyesight for one person.
We have to do something to reduce these incidents. BRCA and EFRA are in constant (daily!) touch with the manufacturers. It has been decided that they start by enforcing clear Rules (not fuzzy '44mm' Rules) and revert to International standards that are already familiar to the manufacturers.
From this side of the pond, if we lost 200mAh on capacity and stopped these uncontained failures (caused either by gas build-up or short-circuit) then that is an excellent trade. You guys have nothing like the Health and Safety regulation we have in Europe, you just sue each other. If I were IB and its distributor and its matcher, I'd be reading and studying the problems we have very closely...
I suspect IFMAR may find it impossible to resist the Health and Safety argument, but even if they do it's no biggie - we'll just use faster motors when we get to access bigger cells at IFMAR events!!