ROAR Stock TC Guideline Suggestion
10-05-2007, 04:47 AM
#91
Tech Regular
10-05-2007, 08:13 AM
#93
10-05-2007, 08:36 AM
#94
10-05-2007, 10:16 AM
#96
Tech Champion
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Don't you wish ROAR had a forum on their website where ROAR members could address this in the right format instead of this meaningless banter?
Not a knock but trying to get a message to ROAR where everyone can be heard would be nice...
Not a knock but trying to get a message to ROAR where everyone can be heard would be nice...
Last edited by Nova F1 Racer; 10-15-2007 at 09:01 AM. Reason: added word so it makes sense...
10-05-2007, 10:17 AM
#97
Here is what my club has done
We bought some monster handout motors from Trinity, we started a handout stock novice class. We would have novice racers showing up with 5.5 novak brushless systems, 19 turns, RTR motors etc. Which wasn't making them better racers because most of the class had way to much power, So now they buy the handout motor for $16 and there first race is free, which gets them to come back and race the points series and become club regulars. We also run a stock rubber tire class with handouts "our most competitive class" and a 19 turn/mod class. Our track is so tight that mod did not have advantage over the 19 turns. We will see how all this works out for us as we have a really busy indoor racing season here in Boise.
We bought some monster handout motors from Trinity, we started a handout stock novice class. We would have novice racers showing up with 5.5 novak brushless systems, 19 turns, RTR motors etc. Which wasn't making them better racers because most of the class had way to much power, So now they buy the handout motor for $16 and there first race is free, which gets them to come back and race the points series and become club regulars. We also run a stock rubber tire class with handouts "our most competitive class" and a 19 turn/mod class. Our track is so tight that mod did not have advantage over the 19 turns. We will see how all this works out for us as we have a really busy indoor racing season here in Boise.
10-15-2007, 07:46 AM
#98
I heard from an old racing buddy in Florida over the weekend, and got to thinking about the whole stock/mod thing. I raced with this guy in the mid-late 80's, so it kind of took me back a bit and realized some things.
One of the first things he said to me was "Stock?! Why aren't you racing Mod!?" and that led to the whole explanation and realization of how cars have just become too fast for their own good.
Stock now is as fast, or maybe faster, than mod was back in the late 80s. I can only directly compare 1/12s to each other, but it makes sense and can be applied to sedans.
Back then, to us, Mod was an 18 turn motor max...if you were ballsy. The Reedy Green Dot motor, which was a very popular mod motor then, was 21 turns. Nearly 20 years later, with the increase in cell capacity (1200 vs 4200 mAh), voltage, ESC technology, and motor improvements, it's pretty easy to realize that today's 27 turn stockers are faster than what we ran back then in mod.
Keep in mind that we all ran 6 cells then too. Now everything is 4 cell, and STILL faster than mod was back then. Also, the difference in speed between a stock and mod THEN was smaller than it is today, by a whole lot. It would be similar to today's jump from stock to 19Turn.
People that are just starting out in the hobby aren't any more "skilled" then they were 20 yrs ago. A beginner is a beginner. So we're expecting people to essentially start out in what was Modified speeds 20 yrs ago. It's no wonder they can't handle it.
Current modified is a whole different story. Nobody wants to race in it, nor has the means. Too fast. Wears out tires and equipment (diffs) way too fast. Tough on batteries and electronics. Who can do that, other than the full factory guys?
That's why people stay in stock and 19Turn. Stock is the same speed as Mod 16-18 yrs ago, and 19T is the same speed as mod 10-12 yrs ago. It's a speed they can handle, and it's mainly made up of guys that have to pay for their own travel, equipment, etc.
So I realized I'm still driving at roughly the same speeds I always have. It's just the "Modified" motor is now labeled "Stock" or "19Turn".
I guess what it boils down to is:
1. Mod is too damned fast and too expensive for most anyone except a select few.
2. Stock is too damned fast for beginners.
So slow down modified and make it accessible to the masses. This might eliminate 19Turn. I don't know how to do it, but that's what would have to be done.
Leave stock alone. It's a good speed. Maybe rename it Super Stock....this could replace 19Turn. Hell, even go with bearings instead of bushings.
Last, a "new" stock class is needed. One that is more controllable to new people. 35-40 turn motors? Tamiya 540J silver cans? I dunno.
***DISCLAIMER***
I didn't mean to drudge up this tired, beaten topic up again. However, after explaining it to someone who hasn't raced in 17 years, some good points were made.
- Clem Clayburgh -
One of the first things he said to me was "Stock?! Why aren't you racing Mod!?" and that led to the whole explanation and realization of how cars have just become too fast for their own good.
Stock now is as fast, or maybe faster, than mod was back in the late 80s. I can only directly compare 1/12s to each other, but it makes sense and can be applied to sedans.
Back then, to us, Mod was an 18 turn motor max...if you were ballsy. The Reedy Green Dot motor, which was a very popular mod motor then, was 21 turns. Nearly 20 years later, with the increase in cell capacity (1200 vs 4200 mAh), voltage, ESC technology, and motor improvements, it's pretty easy to realize that today's 27 turn stockers are faster than what we ran back then in mod.
Keep in mind that we all ran 6 cells then too. Now everything is 4 cell, and STILL faster than mod was back then. Also, the difference in speed between a stock and mod THEN was smaller than it is today, by a whole lot. It would be similar to today's jump from stock to 19Turn.
People that are just starting out in the hobby aren't any more "skilled" then they were 20 yrs ago. A beginner is a beginner. So we're expecting people to essentially start out in what was Modified speeds 20 yrs ago. It's no wonder they can't handle it.
Current modified is a whole different story. Nobody wants to race in it, nor has the means. Too fast. Wears out tires and equipment (diffs) way too fast. Tough on batteries and electronics. Who can do that, other than the full factory guys?
That's why people stay in stock and 19Turn. Stock is the same speed as Mod 16-18 yrs ago, and 19T is the same speed as mod 10-12 yrs ago. It's a speed they can handle, and it's mainly made up of guys that have to pay for their own travel, equipment, etc.
So I realized I'm still driving at roughly the same speeds I always have. It's just the "Modified" motor is now labeled "Stock" or "19Turn".
I guess what it boils down to is:
1. Mod is too damned fast and too expensive for most anyone except a select few.
2. Stock is too damned fast for beginners.
So slow down modified and make it accessible to the masses. This might eliminate 19Turn. I don't know how to do it, but that's what would have to be done.
Leave stock alone. It's a good speed. Maybe rename it Super Stock....this could replace 19Turn. Hell, even go with bearings instead of bushings.
Last, a "new" stock class is needed. One that is more controllable to new people. 35-40 turn motors? Tamiya 540J silver cans? I dunno.
***DISCLAIMER***
I didn't mean to drudge up this tired, beaten topic up again. However, after explaining it to someone who hasn't raced in 17 years, some good points were made.
- Clem Clayburgh -
10-15-2007, 10:22 AM
#99
Guys, back in the day you ran 1200 and hope you could make 5 mins, today you run 4200 for only 5mins... Makes you think that the race run time should have increased along the way, longer race time makes people gear down, not as much heat, etc.... I'm not talking about that qualifiers, I'm talking about the main. R/C is the only racing that I know of that allows you to same time in the qualifier as the main. This just does not make since to me.... and yes, what you qualify with you must race... so if you qualify with a 3.5 then you must race a 3.5 in the main, maybe not the same 3.5...
Mains should be 10 to 15 mins, yes I said it... 10 to 15 mins.... the qualifiers need to be 2 to 4 mins. And before some of you jump in here and complain about the length of the race day, I'm talking about club racing... nationals are different animal.
Stock should be limited to club and regional racing only, not in a national event... then you would not have people staying in stock, they would move up to 19T, and leave stock for the new person. I also believe that the use of a adjustable voltage output device (see link: http://www.a123racing.com/html/hypersonicturbo.html), Stock should be limited to say 4.x, 19T should be limited to say 5.5 and Mod limited to say 7 with a 10 turn limit, open mod, no limit. (these are only suggestions...) The point is if you make stock slower then better people will not want to run it and they move on. I also think it is local club that needs to police it and move people out of stock and into Pro Stock (19T). The use a device like voltage output, it would not matter what your power source is… you still only get x voltage to the motor…
Ok… So let the flaming begin… LOL!!!
Mains should be 10 to 15 mins, yes I said it... 10 to 15 mins.... the qualifiers need to be 2 to 4 mins. And before some of you jump in here and complain about the length of the race day, I'm talking about club racing... nationals are different animal.
Stock should be limited to club and regional racing only, not in a national event... then you would not have people staying in stock, they would move up to 19T, and leave stock for the new person. I also believe that the use of a adjustable voltage output device (see link: http://www.a123racing.com/html/hypersonicturbo.html), Stock should be limited to say 4.x, 19T should be limited to say 5.5 and Mod limited to say 7 with a 10 turn limit, open mod, no limit. (these are only suggestions...) The point is if you make stock slower then better people will not want to run it and they move on. I also think it is local club that needs to police it and move people out of stock and into Pro Stock (19T). The use a device like voltage output, it would not matter what your power source is… you still only get x voltage to the motor…
Ok… So let the flaming begin… LOL!!!
10-16-2007, 06:22 AM
#102
Tech Regular
Controlling the voltage has been talked about over the years but it's not really all that easy to do effectively. Lower voltage also leads to higher gears and more stress on the batteries.
Changing the motors (like back in 91) would slow all of the classes regardless of how many cells they're running. Slower speeds and (hopefully) lower maintenance motors would be better for the new guys and the guys that are in it just as a hobby. A bigger gap between the classes would also give guys more of a reason to move up to a more challenging and faster class.
I would like to see at most 4 classes for big races.
1) Stock - Entry level class with slower high wind low maintenance motors.
2) Brushless Stock - Whatever motor makes the most sense for that class. 13.5 for some and 17.5 for others. It just needs to be spelled out up front.
3) 19 turn - No real change because I think this class should be close to mod. This should be where the majority of the fast stock guys should end up if they don't want to run in full mod. It's not that much faster than stock is today anyway. This is the class that I would like to see a mix of the fast guys (no sponsor, sponsored, and paid drivers 2nd class).
4) Mod - Today's rules are fine for me because I run 12th but there may be some things that we would want to do for the sedan guys. They need to come up with those changes.
By changing motors in the classes that need to be slowed down, you can allow LiPo to come into at least the 6 cell classes (offroad, sedan, etc.).
Changing the motors (like back in 91) would slow all of the classes regardless of how many cells they're running. Slower speeds and (hopefully) lower maintenance motors would be better for the new guys and the guys that are in it just as a hobby. A bigger gap between the classes would also give guys more of a reason to move up to a more challenging and faster class.
I would like to see at most 4 classes for big races.
1) Stock - Entry level class with slower high wind low maintenance motors.
2) Brushless Stock - Whatever motor makes the most sense for that class. 13.5 for some and 17.5 for others. It just needs to be spelled out up front.
3) 19 turn - No real change because I think this class should be close to mod. This should be where the majority of the fast stock guys should end up if they don't want to run in full mod. It's not that much faster than stock is today anyway. This is the class that I would like to see a mix of the fast guys (no sponsor, sponsored, and paid drivers 2nd class).
4) Mod - Today's rules are fine for me because I run 12th but there may be some things that we would want to do for the sedan guys. They need to come up with those changes.
By changing motors in the classes that need to be slowed down, you can allow LiPo to come into at least the 6 cell classes (offroad, sedan, etc.).
Last edited by Unregistered; 10-16-2007 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Pselling erors
10-16-2007, 07:29 AM
#103
Controlling the voltage has been talked about over the years but it's not really all that easy to do effectively. Lower voltage also leads to higher gears and more stress on the batteries.
Changing the motors (like back in 91) would slow all of the classes regardless of how many cells they're running. Slower speeds and (hopefully) lower maintenance motors would be better for the new guys and the guys that are in it just as a hobby. A bigger gap between the classes would also give guys more of a reason to move up to a more challenging and faster class.
I would like to see at most 4 classes for big races.
1) Stock - Entry level class with slower high wind low maintenance motors.
2) Brushless Stock - Whatever motor makes the most sense for that class. 13.5 for some and 17.5 for others. It just needs to be spelled out up front.
3) 19 turn - No real change because I think this class should be close to mod. This should be where the majority of the fast stock guys should end up if they don't want to run in full mod. It's not that much faster than stock is today anyway. This is the class that I would like to see a mix of the fast guys (no sponsor, sponsored, and paid drivers 2nd class).
4) Mod - Today's rules are fine for me because I run 12th but there may be some things that we would want to do for the sedan guys. They need to come up with those changes.
By changing motors in the classes that need to be slowed down, you can allow LiPo to come into at least the 6 cell classes (offroad, sedan, etc.).
Changing the motors (like back in 91) would slow all of the classes regardless of how many cells they're running. Slower speeds and (hopefully) lower maintenance motors would be better for the new guys and the guys that are in it just as a hobby. A bigger gap between the classes would also give guys more of a reason to move up to a more challenging and faster class.
I would like to see at most 4 classes for big races.
1) Stock - Entry level class with slower high wind low maintenance motors.
2) Brushless Stock - Whatever motor makes the most sense for that class. 13.5 for some and 17.5 for others. It just needs to be spelled out up front.
3) 19 turn - No real change because I think this class should be close to mod. This should be where the majority of the fast stock guys should end up if they don't want to run in full mod. It's not that much faster than stock is today anyway. This is the class that I would like to see a mix of the fast guys (no sponsor, sponsored, and paid drivers 2nd class).
4) Mod - Today's rules are fine for me because I run 12th but there may be some things that we would want to do for the sedan guys. They need to come up with those changes.
By changing motors in the classes that need to be slowed down, you can allow LiPo to come into at least the 6 cell classes (offroad, sedan, etc.).
I don't think that major events are the place where these drivers want to spend their hard earned cash learning the ropes. Regional champ level, maybe. I know that our local track has a sportsman class for trophy races. We usually get about 2 full heats (at most). If beginners are unwilling to travel to regional level races, I don't think there will be many that will want to drop 1g (min) going to a national level event. - I could be wrong on this one. But I'd like to see stats on how many would have actually attended the last nats if there were a sportsman division.
10-16-2007, 07:51 AM
#105
Controlling the voltage has been talked about over the years but it's not really all that easy to do effectively. Lower voltage also leads to higher gears and more stress on the batteries.
Changing the motors (like back in 91) would slow all of the classes regardless of how many cells they're running. Slower speeds and (hopefully) lower maintenance motors would be better for the new guys and the guys that are in it just as a hobby. A bigger gap between the classes would also give guys more of a reason to move up to a more challenging and faster class.
I would like to see at most 4 classes for big races.
1) Stock - Entry level class with slower high wind low maintenance motors.
2) Brushless Stock - Whatever motor makes the most sense for that class. 13.5 for some and 17.5 for others. It just needs to be spelled out up front.
3) 19 turn - No real change because I think this class should be close to mod. This should be where the majority of the fast stock guys should end up if they don't want to run in full mod. It's not that much faster than stock is today anyway. This is the class that I would like to see a mix of the fast guys (no sponsor, sponsored, and paid drivers 2nd class).
4) Mod - Today's rules are fine for me because I run 12th but there may be some things that we would want to do for the sedan guys. They need to come up with those changes.
By changing motors in the classes that need to be slowed down, you can allow LiPo to come into at least the 6 cell classes (offroad, sedan, etc.).
Changing the motors (like back in 91) would slow all of the classes regardless of how many cells they're running. Slower speeds and (hopefully) lower maintenance motors would be better for the new guys and the guys that are in it just as a hobby. A bigger gap between the classes would also give guys more of a reason to move up to a more challenging and faster class.
I would like to see at most 4 classes for big races.
1) Stock - Entry level class with slower high wind low maintenance motors.
2) Brushless Stock - Whatever motor makes the most sense for that class. 13.5 for some and 17.5 for others. It just needs to be spelled out up front.
3) 19 turn - No real change because I think this class should be close to mod. This should be where the majority of the fast stock guys should end up if they don't want to run in full mod. It's not that much faster than stock is today anyway. This is the class that I would like to see a mix of the fast guys (no sponsor, sponsored, and paid drivers 2nd class).
4) Mod - Today's rules are fine for me because I run 12th but there may be some things that we would want to do for the sedan guys. They need to come up with those changes.
By changing motors in the classes that need to be slowed down, you can allow LiPo to come into at least the 6 cell classes (offroad, sedan, etc.).
Leave stock alone & get the experience driver`s into Mod ...
This is how a healthy program is developed....
