Future of RC
06-22-2007, 07:20 AM
#166
Tech Master
The products are out there indeed, maybe they just need more advertising.
The tamiya TT01 or TA05 are good options, durable, cheap, spares widely available, etc.
Do you guys know if tamiya is going to release something new this year similar to this products? Or maybe something like the F 103 GT (also a cheap reliable car)?
My fear is that those products have been out there for quite a while, and I would hate to get all the track people into this and have something new in six months.
The tamiya TT01 or TA05 are good options, durable, cheap, spares widely available, etc.
Do you guys know if tamiya is going to release something new this year similar to this products? Or maybe something like the F 103 GT (also a cheap reliable car)?
My fear is that those products have been out there for quite a while, and I would hate to get all the track people into this and have something new in six months.
Some other cheap cars are the F103GT and the Minis( M03 and M04).
06-22-2007, 07:47 AM
#169
There are so many minis out there because they will provide some of the BEST (not fastest, but best) racing in RC. Close racing AND you don't have to spend a fortune.
$150 Minis = NASCAR: close side be side racing that is fun to drive and fun to watch
$400 touring car = Formula 1: exotic technology, cool looks, actual races aren't always the most exciting.
06-22-2007, 08:09 AM
#170
the tao5 kit can be had relatively cheap, from $115 to $150
and is competive right out of the box. you don't have to purchase all the bling hops ups to make it go quick. I remember a couple of years ago a stock tao5, won at the Tamiya TCS finals. it was just released for sale and bult the night before the race.
and is competive right out of the box. you don't have to purchase all the bling hops ups to make it go quick. I remember a couple of years ago a stock tao5, won at the Tamiya TCS finals. it was just released for sale and bult the night before the race.
06-22-2007, 08:11 AM
#171
The 16 year old 'best friend' of my son (Who's 15, and been r/c racing since he was 8) got a R/C Helicopter for his birthday last weekend.
This kid has never driven a r/c, nor flown ANYTHING r/c related...but at some point mentioned he wanted a r/c helicopter. They (which ever stupid relative) bought him a fairly inexpensive one from the LHS (which I think even their cheap ones were over $200.00)
Well short story long...the kid fires it up (it's electric) in his back yard (which is really small) proceeds to get it UP in the air about 15-20 ft. loses control and crashes it into a ROCK PILE - Helicopter DESTROYED in less than 2 minutes. One of the relatives was heard saying - THAT WHAT I HATE ABOUT R/C STUFF - YOU BUY IT AND IT JUST GETS BROKEN - WHAT A WASTE OF MONEY~ Kid shrugged it off - and went back to his XBOX...
This kid has never driven a r/c, nor flown ANYTHING r/c related...but at some point mentioned he wanted a r/c helicopter. They (which ever stupid relative) bought him a fairly inexpensive one from the LHS (which I think even their cheap ones were over $200.00)
Well short story long...the kid fires it up (it's electric) in his back yard (which is really small) proceeds to get it UP in the air about 15-20 ft. loses control and crashes it into a ROCK PILE - Helicopter DESTROYED in less than 2 minutes. One of the relatives was heard saying - THAT WHAT I HATE ABOUT R/C STUFF - YOU BUY IT AND IT JUST GETS BROKEN - WHAT A WASTE OF MONEY~ Kid shrugged it off - and went back to his XBOX...
06-22-2007, 08:18 AM
#172
here are some ideas you could do at a club level with today batch of cars:
FWD w/27T motors - Novice (use Mini's or TC's with the rear diff. removed)
RWD w/19T motors - Competition (take out the front diff)
4WD w/mod motors - Unlimited (what the world is now)
Batteries must fit in a certain size box (any battery may be used as long as it fits in the box)
Wheel base and tread width is standardized and must fit under a select listing of bodies mounted at the same mounting points.
Ride height minimum 8mm, max 10mm (this will bring back close racing big time)
Suspension arms at fixed positions for FWD and RWD i.e. no more adjustable caster blocks to worry about just toe and camber like the good ol days.
Solid spec rubber tires no inserts. (for all classes sans 4WD) this one run on a set of tires is ridiculous Even a real F-1 car can competitively go longer then 5 min. on a set of tires why can't we?
It may sound crazy at first but if you want to bring back the spirit of R/C you need to put all aspects back into it, including the wrenching and the driving both of which are quickly becoming less important.
Make it so the novice has fun setting up his car and does not feel intimidated.
Put creativity back into set-ups rather then the current "go online spend the money by the fast parts and copy the fast guy set-up" that is today world.
Keep the money no object unlimited class intact as for some people they need it and they are willing to invest more then others to keep it so let them.
3 different classes is about the threshold for most places when you break it down further classes begin to suffer.
FWD w/27T motors - Novice (use Mini's or TC's with the rear diff. removed)
RWD w/19T motors - Competition (take out the front diff)
4WD w/mod motors - Unlimited (what the world is now)
Batteries must fit in a certain size box (any battery may be used as long as it fits in the box)
Wheel base and tread width is standardized and must fit under a select listing of bodies mounted at the same mounting points.
Ride height minimum 8mm, max 10mm (this will bring back close racing big time)
Suspension arms at fixed positions for FWD and RWD i.e. no more adjustable caster blocks to worry about just toe and camber like the good ol days.
Solid spec rubber tires no inserts. (for all classes sans 4WD) this one run on a set of tires is ridiculous Even a real F-1 car can competitively go longer then 5 min. on a set of tires why can't we?
It may sound crazy at first but if you want to bring back the spirit of R/C you need to put all aspects back into it, including the wrenching and the driving both of which are quickly becoming less important.
Make it so the novice has fun setting up his car and does not feel intimidated.
Put creativity back into set-ups rather then the current "go online spend the money by the fast parts and copy the fast guy set-up" that is today world.
Keep the money no object unlimited class intact as for some people they need it and they are willing to invest more then others to keep it so let them.
3 different classes is about the threshold for most places when you break it down further classes begin to suffer.
06-22-2007, 08:43 AM
#173
here are some ideas you could do at a club level with today batch of cars:
FWD w/27T motors - Novice (use Mini's or TC's with the rear diff. removed)
RWD w/19T motors - Competition (take out the front diff)
4WD w/mod motors - Unlimited (what the world is now)
Batteries must fit in a certain size box (any battery may be used as long as it fits in the box)
Wheel base and tread width is standardized and must fit under a select listing of bodies mounted at the same mounting points.
Ride height minimum 8mm, max 10mm (this will bring back close racing big time)
Suspension arms at fixed positions for FWD and RWD i.e. no more adjustable caster blocks to worry about just toe and camber like the good ol days.
Solid spec rubber tires no inserts. (for all classes sans 4WD) this one run on a set of tires is ridiculous Even a real F-1 car can competitively go longer then 5 min. on a set of tires why can't we?
It may sound crazy at first but if you want to bring back the spirit of R/C you need to put all aspects back into it, including the wrenching and the driving both of which are quickly becoming less important.
Make it so the novice has fun setting up his car and does not feel intimidated.
Put creativity back into set-ups rather then the current "go online spend the money by the fast parts and copy the fast guy set-up" that is today world.
Keep the money no object unlimited class intact as for some people they need it and they are willing to invest more then others to keep it so let them.
3 different classes is about the threshold for most places when you break it down further classes begin to suffer.
FWD w/27T motors - Novice (use Mini's or TC's with the rear diff. removed)
RWD w/19T motors - Competition (take out the front diff)
4WD w/mod motors - Unlimited (what the world is now)
Batteries must fit in a certain size box (any battery may be used as long as it fits in the box)
Wheel base and tread width is standardized and must fit under a select listing of bodies mounted at the same mounting points.
Ride height minimum 8mm, max 10mm (this will bring back close racing big time)
Suspension arms at fixed positions for FWD and RWD i.e. no more adjustable caster blocks to worry about just toe and camber like the good ol days.
Solid spec rubber tires no inserts. (for all classes sans 4WD) this one run on a set of tires is ridiculous Even a real F-1 car can competitively go longer then 5 min. on a set of tires why can't we?
It may sound crazy at first but if you want to bring back the spirit of R/C you need to put all aspects back into it, including the wrenching and the driving both of which are quickly becoming less important.
Make it so the novice has fun setting up his car and does not feel intimidated.
Put creativity back into set-ups rather then the current "go online spend the money by the fast parts and copy the fast guy set-up" that is today world.
Keep the money no object unlimited class intact as for some people they need it and they are willing to invest more then others to keep it so let them.
3 different classes is about the threshold for most places when you break it down further classes begin to suffer.
Keep the money no object unlimited class intact as for some people they need it and they are willing to invest more then others to keep it so let them.
My favorite part of that post. You thought of every one in this comment.
Freedom to enjoy it. Keeps my foams alive to.
The ultimate Modified class,Yet hurts the stock class I think.
That class can be the serious racer and the bash racer. Its hard to mix them.
The basher will run mod for sure. Yet the serious racer wont most of the time.
On a club level.
06-22-2007, 06:58 PM
#175
Tech Rookie
another perspective from another driver....
i started back in 2000. the ONLY....and i mean ONLY reason i picked up the R/C hobby is because i LOVE watching the WRC (world rally championship...THE most amazing form of motorsport, period.)
tamiya makes touring chassis for on-road and a few chassis that can be _modified_ for off-road use with the proper _scaled_ body sets of some noted rally cars.
i start up and it's great fun. we get out to some parking lots, parks with gravel areas, or baseball diamonds. tons of fun.
i'm in texas and there are a few tracks around here but i don't use them. never have. never will.
and i think this is where the problem is.....it's with the hard and fast focus on _racing_. everything is about racing and competition. even the RTR market really pushes the speed and how fast something is.
most of the guys i drive with are not into racing. we don't want or NEED a second job spent tweaking cars, taking on "winter projects", learning about amps and volts, taking hours out of our day to mask and paint a body, having to deal with a manufacturer/distributor/dealer system that never seems to get me the parts i need in a timely manner, on and on......
R/C is _not_ in comptition with girls or games or even computers.....it's in comptition with LIFE.
sure...girls, games and computers are PART of life....but they aren't everything.
at some point i stopped driving my cars.....i'd rather live and experience life rather than feel confined to a small and marginal segement of society that has ALWAYS seemed.....well.....uncool.
i know there will be some who pipe up and say......if R/C means i'm uncool then i'm PROUD to be uncool and racing rules and so on......
unfortunatly...these statements aren;t solutions...they're simply....to a casual observer.....the vitriolic ('cause it never helps to proclaim that being uncool is cool) expression of unease.
it's the same with music....i'm a guitarist. sure...you could plunk down about $400 for a starter guitar but it's all you must learn after the purchase that will make you a really good player. and it doesn't matter if you're in a band. most guitarists i know aren't even in a band anymore. it's hard. again, it becomes almost a second job.
it's the same thing with cycling. i'm a mountain biker. attendance at races is DOWN. why? again, to compete you have to train and eat well and change the way you live. you have to go out to practice rides and spend the cash for parts and maintenance. again....it's like a second job.
and maybe you're thinking...man...people are just lazy. they don't want to put any effort into anything. they want it all to come easy and naturally.
people's lives are already complicated by a LOT of things. more complexity isn't the answer. slower motors aren't the answer. marketing isn't the answer.
the answer is.....there really is no answer.
every industry will get a SMALL percentage of people who want to get into some hobby for whatever reason...usually it's cause their bored or think it's exciting (how long does excitement last?) or whatever.
the other larger majority will do something else. they will live.......and live well.
take some time and keep asking _yourself_ the same question for the entire week: how are you living?
half won't answer truthfully because they know they compromised their DREAMS somewhere along the lines and ended up somewhere they don't want to be.
the other half can't clearly see where they are going and sense and uncertain future.
i started back in 2000. the ONLY....and i mean ONLY reason i picked up the R/C hobby is because i LOVE watching the WRC (world rally championship...THE most amazing form of motorsport, period.)
tamiya makes touring chassis for on-road and a few chassis that can be _modified_ for off-road use with the proper _scaled_ body sets of some noted rally cars.
i start up and it's great fun. we get out to some parking lots, parks with gravel areas, or baseball diamonds. tons of fun.
i'm in texas and there are a few tracks around here but i don't use them. never have. never will.
and i think this is where the problem is.....it's with the hard and fast focus on _racing_. everything is about racing and competition. even the RTR market really pushes the speed and how fast something is.
most of the guys i drive with are not into racing. we don't want or NEED a second job spent tweaking cars, taking on "winter projects", learning about amps and volts, taking hours out of our day to mask and paint a body, having to deal with a manufacturer/distributor/dealer system that never seems to get me the parts i need in a timely manner, on and on......
R/C is _not_ in comptition with girls or games or even computers.....it's in comptition with LIFE.
sure...girls, games and computers are PART of life....but they aren't everything.
at some point i stopped driving my cars.....i'd rather live and experience life rather than feel confined to a small and marginal segement of society that has ALWAYS seemed.....well.....uncool.
i know there will be some who pipe up and say......if R/C means i'm uncool then i'm PROUD to be uncool and racing rules and so on......
unfortunatly...these statements aren;t solutions...they're simply....to a casual observer.....the vitriolic ('cause it never helps to proclaim that being uncool is cool) expression of unease.
it's the same with music....i'm a guitarist. sure...you could plunk down about $400 for a starter guitar but it's all you must learn after the purchase that will make you a really good player. and it doesn't matter if you're in a band. most guitarists i know aren't even in a band anymore. it's hard. again, it becomes almost a second job.
it's the same thing with cycling. i'm a mountain biker. attendance at races is DOWN. why? again, to compete you have to train and eat well and change the way you live. you have to go out to practice rides and spend the cash for parts and maintenance. again....it's like a second job.
and maybe you're thinking...man...people are just lazy. they don't want to put any effort into anything. they want it all to come easy and naturally.
people's lives are already complicated by a LOT of things. more complexity isn't the answer. slower motors aren't the answer. marketing isn't the answer.
the answer is.....there really is no answer.
every industry will get a SMALL percentage of people who want to get into some hobby for whatever reason...usually it's cause their bored or think it's exciting (how long does excitement last?) or whatever.
the other larger majority will do something else. they will live.......and live well.
take some time and keep asking _yourself_ the same question for the entire week: how are you living?
half won't answer truthfully because they know they compromised their DREAMS somewhere along the lines and ended up somewhere they don't want to be.
the other half can't clearly see where they are going and sense and uncertain future.
Last edited by thesuper; 06-22-2007 at 07:09 PM.
06-22-2007, 08:14 PM
#176
super,
interesting response and well put. RC is not for everyone and it seems to be a much older crowd these days simply because it is a lot of work racing and it does compete with a lot of other things in life. Racing requires a big commitment and consumes fair amount of time off the track (the body comment is not correct 2 coats only one color, saves weight
For me this is an escape from work, the wife, at least for a few hours
, and my son enjoys it so it gives us something we can do together.
Certainly those coming into the hobby will need to consider super's post seriously theres a lot of good points in there
interesting response and well put. RC is not for everyone and it seems to be a much older crowd these days simply because it is a lot of work racing and it does compete with a lot of other things in life. Racing requires a big commitment and consumes fair amount of time off the track (the body comment is not correct 2 coats only one color, saves weight
For me this is an escape from work, the wife, at least for a few hours
, and my son enjoys it so it gives us something we can do together.Certainly those coming into the hobby will need to consider super's post seriously theres a lot of good points in there
06-22-2007, 08:48 PM
#177
there are some good points, but he paints us all with the same brush, just as he paints everyone that doesn't race with the same brush.. all he did infact was tell us why he doesn't race, not why others don't race and certainly not why i do race.. or why this hobby can be enjoyed by countless people who do enjoy competition and countless people that just enjoy other folks that like cars or whatever.. the point is, no single answer, answers "the question" for all people. as a hobby we need to find a way to reach as many of the people that will enjoy it as possible, and make it attainable and sustainable... it's the quintessential "to each his own" i guess. if we are competing with "life" as he put it, then certainly life hasn't changed from the hobby's hay day, just the cars, costs, and presentation of our hobby and we need to recapture whatever that essence was before that brought so many to the fold..
06-23-2007, 09:13 AM
#178
Tech Rookie
GCracker...it's interesting that the first portion of your reply mentions racing.
one thing to remember that the percentage of people who by R/C and race with any regularity is small.
tallyrc...the brush strokes will always be broad from my end, since the marketing has to be. you can't focus the majority of the ad dollars to the 18-20 year olds. it's too narrow.
in teh second portion reverts to talk of racing and competition. consider looking outside of that if you want to keep people in R/C.
"if we are competing with "life" as he put it, then certainly life hasn't changed from the hobby's hay day"
if most in R/C believe life hasn't changed......this is a masssive and glaring omission.
one of the great constants in life IS change. life has changed. people's focus changes every fiscal quarter. i won't get into foreign politics, US economy and consumer confidence BUT.....i will say that, from a economic standpoint....R/C is a luxury.
and while you CAN focus in on the people with a disposable income (like myself, 30, single, with cash to spare) they aren't going to hang around too long if there isn't anything to keep them there.
for me personally, cycling pulled me away from R/C. i feel way better after a loooooong ride and great meal afterwards than i did after standing just about dead still for about 4 hours watching my rally car get sideways. extrapolate something more from that statement than it's literal point and you'll soon start to get a taste for the kinds of changes that need to take place in R/C to keep people in the hobby.
one thing to remember that the percentage of people who by R/C and race with any regularity is small.
tallyrc...the brush strokes will always be broad from my end, since the marketing has to be. you can't focus the majority of the ad dollars to the 18-20 year olds. it's too narrow.
in teh second portion reverts to talk of racing and competition. consider looking outside of that if you want to keep people in R/C.
"if we are competing with "life" as he put it, then certainly life hasn't changed from the hobby's hay day"
if most in R/C believe life hasn't changed......this is a masssive and glaring omission.
one of the great constants in life IS change. life has changed. people's focus changes every fiscal quarter. i won't get into foreign politics, US economy and consumer confidence BUT.....i will say that, from a economic standpoint....R/C is a luxury.
and while you CAN focus in on the people with a disposable income (like myself, 30, single, with cash to spare) they aren't going to hang around too long if there isn't anything to keep them there.
for me personally, cycling pulled me away from R/C. i feel way better after a loooooong ride and great meal afterwards than i did after standing just about dead still for about 4 hours watching my rally car get sideways. extrapolate something more from that statement than it's literal point and you'll soon start to get a taste for the kinds of changes that need to take place in R/C to keep people in the hobby.
06-24-2007, 08:12 AM
#179
why mini's are the best for cost controlled racing and saving the hobby
The simple reason why mini races are fun and relatively cheap is that there aren't that many hopups available for the mini's, most hop ups don't do much, and the hopups that are worthwhile are inexpensive. In addition to that, you don't need a $200 speed controller, or $60 batteries. The power draw for the silver can motor is small in a mini, and even if you delivered 100% of a 4200 matched pack to the motor on acceleration you would have wheel spin.
I have had tt-01's and here are the issues with them:
The hopups are very expensive.
The plastic used strips very easily.
There is much more play in everything then there is in a mini.
If cost is the deciding factor in whether a person races (I don't think it is), then a mini class is the way to go. If you add in a lipo battery and $30 charger, you have a $300 racing package that is as competitive as any in the mini class. Compare that with the $400 kit + hopups + esc + etc.
The racers who keep racing alive (older crowd) usually don't play video games and don't chase girls at the mall. These are the guys who race year in and year out and form the backbone of r/c racing. Kids come and go, as has been discussed numerous times. Having a cost controlled racing environment in which everyone has a chance to win and spending $300 on hopups doesn't get you anywhere is the way to attract this backbone. If they go to it, newbies will also, because that is what is being raced.
As a matter of fact, if you use lipo's in a mini, the only disposable is the tires, since the motors last forever. Tamiya tires wear quick, but the hpi x-patterns lasted a season easily. I am sure that HPI could be persuaded to rerelease the x-pattern if there was enough interest in them.
I have had tt-01's and here are the issues with them:
The hopups are very expensive.
The plastic used strips very easily.
There is much more play in everything then there is in a mini.
If cost is the deciding factor in whether a person races (I don't think it is), then a mini class is the way to go. If you add in a lipo battery and $30 charger, you have a $300 racing package that is as competitive as any in the mini class. Compare that with the $400 kit + hopups + esc + etc.
The racers who keep racing alive (older crowd) usually don't play video games and don't chase girls at the mall. These are the guys who race year in and year out and form the backbone of r/c racing. Kids come and go, as has been discussed numerous times. Having a cost controlled racing environment in which everyone has a chance to win and spending $300 on hopups doesn't get you anywhere is the way to attract this backbone. If they go to it, newbies will also, because that is what is being raced.
As a matter of fact, if you use lipo's in a mini, the only disposable is the tires, since the motors last forever. Tamiya tires wear quick, but the hpi x-patterns lasted a season easily. I am sure that HPI could be persuaded to rerelease the x-pattern if there was enough interest in them.
06-24-2007, 06:13 PM
#180
Well this thread is propogating nicely. And being that this is in the Electric On Road Forum I have a good question well suited for here being that it seems lots of experienced racers seem to be paying attention.....
Quick History:
Me and my boys hooked up with a local hobby shop late last Winter. Local meaning 10 minutes from the house. It's a new business of about two years. We got the owner to build a carpet 1/18th scale track that's great for 1/18th scale on road, Recoils, and other small scale vehicles. We've been running regular weekly races on the carpet since about March. We were getting about 15 people regularly. And as was expected as it got warmer out it's dwindled to about 8 guys on a Wednesday night. I'm surprised that many keep coming when it's nice out. We run 2 qaulifiers and 1 main and are done by about 9:30pm.
Being that it was going to get warm out I got the owner to allow a parking lot race, obviously outdoors on Sundays. Here's what the track looks like:
http://tinyurl.com/238x32
since May and those photos above, I've added Road Domes and it's made racing and marshalling way way smoother.
We only run electric because it's in a residential area. Currently we say we'll make a class anyone wants to race if there's three of any kind of car. Currently we've got 1/10th scale sedans, Recoils and miscellaneous other small scale vehicles like M18's, RC18's showing up. The track is 80x50 by choice. I think it's a great track for folks that want to have "fun" racing...you can get serious if enough other serious people would show up. Today we only had two heats of 1/10th scale....with about seven racers total. Today we were pulling about 10 second laptimes with a track layout that looks like this:
http://pages.ripco.net/~kenji/strict...uts/track1.jpg
those are about 10 foot wide lanes
We've held races every Sunday this past month. We "advertise" that the outdoor races will be very Sunday.
OK here's my two questions:
How do we get more people to show up?
How do we get the word out so more local people know we exist?
Thanks for reading my long-ass post.
Quick History:
Me and my boys hooked up with a local hobby shop late last Winter. Local meaning 10 minutes from the house. It's a new business of about two years. We got the owner to build a carpet 1/18th scale track that's great for 1/18th scale on road, Recoils, and other small scale vehicles. We've been running regular weekly races on the carpet since about March. We were getting about 15 people regularly. And as was expected as it got warmer out it's dwindled to about 8 guys on a Wednesday night. I'm surprised that many keep coming when it's nice out. We run 2 qaulifiers and 1 main and are done by about 9:30pm.
Being that it was going to get warm out I got the owner to allow a parking lot race, obviously outdoors on Sundays. Here's what the track looks like:
http://tinyurl.com/238x32
since May and those photos above, I've added Road Domes and it's made racing and marshalling way way smoother.
We only run electric because it's in a residential area. Currently we say we'll make a class anyone wants to race if there's three of any kind of car. Currently we've got 1/10th scale sedans, Recoils and miscellaneous other small scale vehicles like M18's, RC18's showing up. The track is 80x50 by choice. I think it's a great track for folks that want to have "fun" racing...you can get serious if enough other serious people would show up. Today we only had two heats of 1/10th scale....with about seven racers total. Today we were pulling about 10 second laptimes with a track layout that looks like this:
http://pages.ripco.net/~kenji/strict...uts/track1.jpg
those are about 10 foot wide lanes
We've held races every Sunday this past month. We "advertise" that the outdoor races will be very Sunday.
OK here's my two questions:
How do we get more people to show up?
How do we get the word out so more local people know we exist?
Thanks for reading my long-ass post.