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Old 11-27-2001, 11:13 AM   #16
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Darkside - Your points are well taken and I totally agree with you about the idea being a good one but the real world not being on an equal playground. Obviously a couple of things have to happen. Like you said, Trinity, Yokomo (Reedy in the US) and ROAR would have to take an active role in regulating and marketing BL motors as well or they will not work their way into racing the way people think they will. My gut tells me that Ernie isn't going to let his motor business just lay down and die. And lets face it, Motors wearing out, lathes, brushes, etc is respectable cash flow for trinity and many other RC companies. So I don't think these guys are going to do anything to encourage BL motors until they have absolutely no choice about it. So what would you expect those companies to do. Let Novak, or Orion come out with a motor that lasts for 2 years that doesn't need maintenance? Nope, they will either develop and sell BL motors with higher performance or they will resist the viability of BL motors and keep them out of the industry as long as they can.

But, if it were to happen that BL motors became the standard, I do think there is an opportunity to more closely regulate them to create some parody of motors. BL motors performance is HIGH above what we currently use. If you can govern amp draw and regulate the voltage to the motor, you could in a sense end up with very equal motors. The reason stock motors now vary so much is that we push them to the limit (if not past the limit) of their capabilities. So the better the battery, the faster is goes. Or the better the magnets, etc.. But lets say that for stock, you only had to utilize 40% of a BL motor's capabilities to get it to perform at the level of a current good P2K2. You could get the same performance out of that motor with varying levels of batteries. Like Nascar, who takes an 800 to 1000HP motor and restricts them down to like 500 or 600 HP's to create equality. No system is perfect but it could be alot closer than the high variance of stock motors that we see out there today
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Old 11-27-2001, 11:42 AM   #17
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Dave: man, I tell you what, don't get the idea that I'm resisting this. I'm not. Believe me!

After watching some of the guys at this past weekends races, I'd take a more level playing field, even if its not perfectly level!

Anything, other than watching guys with "stock" motors going faster than my Chameleon pro does, is fine with me.

It would take help from Roar and other sanctioning bodies to get the BL thing to explode. Problem is that the motor companies have more pull with these organization than anyone. So like you said, unless the motor companies find a way to keep making money off the motors after they sell it, this technology will face some stiff resistance.

One thing I am sure of though, I'm sick of everyone having to guess about what effect the Novak motor system will have on the industry. I just wish they'd come out with it so we can all see for ourselves whether it will induce some serious change or become just another novelty item in the Hobbyshop display cases!
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Old 11-27-2001, 12:13 PM   #18
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Brushless motors have been around along time, but Aveox motors were never intended for cars, they were and still are airplane purpose built!
Gm has come and gone and now is finally back in the U.S. but they do not distribute their BL motors in the U.S. Sure I can get one but most likely from overseas!
The Modeltech motors look great and I have only heard great things about them but like GM they are also only sold overseas. Which means if something happens and you need repairs or support you are going to have to wait longer to get it back, just more of a hassle. or worse yet, lost at sea, lol.
With Novak and now Orion making them, which are both car specific units and the fact that both companies have a very firm foothold here in the U.S. Repairs and or service should be far better here for their systems! Plus Novak has many years experience with making top notch speedos, they have never made a BL speedo before but their vast experience in their field can only help things and lead to advancements!
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Old 11-27-2001, 01:00 PM   #19
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Darkside,

I think it's more a problem of false patriotism.
If it's not made by an American company it can't be right.

I just had a heated discussion with an American who wanted to tell me the automobile was invented by Henry Ford!!!

I'm German btw
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Old 11-27-2001, 02:17 PM   #20
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Just to clarify, this is NOT for the Micro. Orion just announced a new Big-Block motor for the Micro. The Brushless is a standard 540 size.
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Old 11-27-2001, 04:11 PM   #21
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the micro brushless motor is called the elite mod.
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Old 11-27-2001, 05:05 PM   #22
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The elite mod is not brushless, it is coreless. It can use standard speed controls where a brushless cannot.
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Old 11-27-2001, 05:39 PM   #23
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There is no doubt that brushless motors are better, people just complain about price but... just think next year we will have Orion, Novak, Modeltech, GM..etc etc all selling these motors the price will drop quickly, i'm sure these motors will become very popular.

People say that IFMAR and ROAR won't leaglize the motors for along time, but we are the ones with $$$ and when people relize how fast you can go with these motors we will buy them and using them all the time!

I can't wait!....

BTW: The motor is for Touring and Off road cars, confirmed on the Orion website forum.
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Old 11-27-2001, 07:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by stefan
Darkside,

I think it's more a problem of false patriotism.
If it's not made by an American company it can't be right.

I just had a heated discussion with an American who wanted to tell me the automobile was invented by Henry Ford!!!

I'm German btw
I'm Chinese and I certainly know who invented the car!!!(not an Amercian) But I know exactly where you are coming from Stefan.
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Old 11-27-2001, 07:50 PM   #25
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I appeared to have missed a good debate last night......... hell, I need sleep over in this side of the world!!!

Anyway the discussion appears to have digressed into two strands;

1. Who invented?
2. Who perfected?

Neither the Modeltech, GM, or Novak invented the BL system. Thats a FACT!

The Modeltech and GM both have very similar characteristics. Thats a FACT! (I have a Modeltech and I've ran a friends GM)

The Novak BL will be better??!! Currently that is still SPECULATION and NOT FACT because NO ONE except a few Novak employees have tried the system. Lets not debate about what you SEE and READ. The only people who CAN comment about the Novak system are those who have used it.......

silence........................
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Old 11-27-2001, 09:24 PM   #26
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black-knight: your certainly right about that. The speed of those motors will definitely sell them. As long as the price isn't insanely high, I don't really think the price will be an issue. If its fast, people will buy it!
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Old 11-27-2001, 09:29 PM   #27
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I'm not going to try to preach against brushless motors, I think it's plain that they are going to be the future of electric R/C.

Here's something that concerns me though... No tuning. Everyone seems to think that this is a good thing, but it scares me. Suppose The Orion brushless motor is great, and we all buy them. Okay, no one's got a horsepower edge, there's no tuning, all the black magic and voodoo has been eliminated. I like that part of it., but let's say the Novak motor comes out a month or two later and is more powerful. Now we all hoave to buy it to be competitive, we can't do anything to our existing brushless motor to keep up... So we all buy Novaks, and all is right again until the next better brushless motor comes along... Yup, time for a whole new motor/esc combo to keep up.

I didn't rush out and buy a D4 when they came out, I was running D3's until this fall and beating guys with D4's. I never felt like I was getting outpowered. Now I'm running a Reedy Ti 10 double, and I'm not in any hurry to get a P94. If I do decide to get one, it's gonna be only $49, and I can wait til I wear my Ti out.

The whole idea of a sealed system that can't be tuned is appealing, as long as everyone runs that system and no one comes out with a faster one. But what happens then? I'd hate to buy a new $250-$300 motor/esc unit every time a faster one comes out.

What happens when one of the motor manufacturers figures out there's a lot more money to be made by releasing incrementally faster brushless systems every two or three months than there is in brushes and springs and armatures?

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Old 11-27-2001, 09:35 PM   #28
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I think what will happen is 2 or 3 companies will make the successfull Brushless Speedos and Motors but we will get 20 different brandings i.e GM/Modeltech - Orion/Aviator etc etc

Just like Trinity/EPIC or Integy/EPIC, AE/Yokomo, Fantom/Yokomo, the jap and chinese factories will churn out 1000's of motors in what ever colour and sticker/lable you want!


Powerful motors don't always win races the winning guys always have very good driving skills and car setup! This fact will remain.
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Old 11-27-2001, 11:25 PM   #29
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I agree with Trips.

I'm all for progress and I'm all for faster motors... but... call me crazy if you want, I think half the fun is tuning those suckers. If everybody is running the same motor/esc combo that (in theory) always performs the same, where's the fun? Sure, it's a spec class, but what happens when every class is a spec class?

I hope brushless motors take off but I hope they don't replace brushed motors altogether. Might be wishful thinking, but still.
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Old 11-28-2001, 12:31 AM   #30
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Didn't at least Novak and Modeltech both say that they will put ajdustable magnets to their motors to tune speed and torque? Anyway the power advantage can never be so high because the power output of the batteries is very limited and you can never get more mechanical power out than what you put in in electrical power. Neverteless there is still room for improvement in high revs, because the brushed motors are not taking so much current there as the battery would have to offer.
And if a company is in UK, what does it change? Anyone can learn to speak London
Darkside, spot on there in the beginning!
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