Has touring car for club racing turn-out been low in your area
11-29-2006, 09:43 AM
#121
Originally Posted by Scottrik
CART was struggling with competitive balance issues, and since the team owners owned the series decisions were being made based strictly on self-interest.
Thanks for clarifying. They were sturggling becuase of competative balance issues, not because someone wanted to start a new 'class' or ammend the rules.
Originally Posted by Scottrik
The IRL split off came about 100% because CART teams told Tony George/Indianapolis Motor Speedway that there was NO way they were going to continue spending a month and 1/3 of their annual budgets to race there. The rationale for the creation of IRL were all PROVEN fictitious as time went on, some sooner than others. ANYONE could build a chassis as long as it met price max with trans. That max crept up to meet what a CART car cost VERY quickly. "American manufacturer involvement" was a joke from the outset--the "Olds Aurora" engine was a bespoke racing unit sharing only bore-spacing with it's name provider. ALL internal componentry was designed and manufactured in UK. All the chassis came from UK and Italy until R&S finally made the show several years later. "More American drivers"...look at the grid today, need I say more. Oh, and that real cost-containment strategy "teams own their own engines instead of those evil leases"...they even finally had to give up on that.
IRL would have failed VERY early on had George not funded several teams from his pocketbook and guaranteed starting positions to IRL regulars the first several years.
IRL would have failed VERY early on had George not funded several teams from his pocketbook and guaranteed starting positions to IRL regulars the first several years.
Hmmm....Very interesting, learn someting every day. I also realize that the cost-containment stratagies that they were promoting as the reason for the split have long since been gone. And eventhough it would have fail very early, it seems to be doing ok now. It may not be thriving like NASCAR, but they have been adding races the last few years. I've gone out to the Kansas Speedway since it opened and the IRL has been some of the best racing and the stands have been full. I'm actually supprised that the crowds have not gone done, especailly since they raced here over the 4th of July.
Originally Posted by Scottrik
If you or anyone else believe they race "Chevy's, Fords and Dodges" you are 100% PROOF of the success of NASCAR's marketing. Ain't a single piece on ANY of those cars you can buy from Chevy, Ford, OR Dodge. To say nothing of RWD Taurus', etc. It's a silhouette series, has been for DECADES now. I don't care for NASCAR but their marketing cannot be faulted AT ALL. They provide the perception of close, competitive racing and make whatever rules adjustments it takes REGARDLESS of which team's toes are stepped on. Gary Nelson, their tech director for several years recently, said it isn't a successful season unless he's heard credible testimony from teams running all three mfr. cars that they're at an unfair disadvantage. Don't get me started on NASCAR's business practices though. And don't think they weren't HUGE instigators of the CART/IRL split...open wheelers feud, NASCAR was CLEARLY the victors.
No doubt NASCAR benifited for the CART/IRL split.
Originally Posted by Scottrik
If the race carries the NASCAR branding/sanction it is 100% to NASCAR rules for whatever class may be competing. The only class that complies with Nextel Cup rules is Nextel Cup. Busch, trucks, SW Tour, Modifieds...if it is a NASCAR sanctioned race the appropriate rules are SLAVISHLY complied with. That doesn't mean that individual tracks that host a NASCAR event or two durning the year don't also host non-NASCAR events as well--just like your local ROAR-affiliate club can't have local series and rules if they choose to do so. But NASCAR calls the shots at the national level, and ROAR should do likewise if it can be shown they are at least trying to act in the best interests of the hobby. In that regard ROAR's mission differs from NASCAR--NASCAR only has to act in their OWN best interest. If you take "stock car racing" as their "hobby" they are busily killing ARCA, ASA, etc as no one there can get sponsor money. So much for supporting diversity.
Agreed. You just said it much better than I did. If you go to the ROAR Nats, but all means, you should follow ROAR rules. There are plenty of other non-ROAR national events that people can run.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not against ROAR. I just think a club race should be able to ammend the ROAR rules for local club races. Especially if it increases participation.
Originally Posted by Scottrik
Agreed. As long as the classes make sense and work toward promoting particiapation AND growth.
Scottrik
Scottrik
I think we are saying pretty much the same thing. You are just saying better than I.
Lack of participation is due to lack of visibility (marketing) and, to some degree, cost. Following ROAR rules to the letter will not increase participation, and clubs allowing a 4300 LiPo class is not hurting participation. But ROAR rules need to be used as a guide line.
11-29-2006, 09:44 AM
#122
Originally Posted by David Alberico
Stewartfan: You are right but I feel that you missed my point. You don't see any of those guys say that they feel racing would be better with a less horse power motor made the same people. In KC you are either running stock or 4300 and that's it, the problem with it is that it is closed class, at least in stock you can any stock motor, 4300 isn't that way, plus there is no brushed equal. I see Lipos being the future and with minium weight rules it doesn't give an advantage. I could see ROAR coming out and saying "in 2 years brushless stock will be legal" and start legalizing motors. But I see no future for the 4300 class because it is closed to other manufactures in the motor dept. and it is not equal to anything else. I really don't know what a 4300 is or what makes a brushless a 4300, now if there were a set of specs that were adopted and manufactures made 4300 motors based on those I think the 4300 class would then become a class.
In the meantime, what do I think would increase racer turnout? promote a novice class, run what you brought off-road/onroad, stock motors and must be clean, stock sedan rubber tires ONLY, keep 4300 but find a brushed equal. and 12th scale...blah blah blah.
In the meantime, what do I think would increase racer turnout? promote a novice class, run what you brought off-road/onroad, stock motors and must be clean, stock sedan rubber tires ONLY, keep 4300 but find a brushed equal. and 12th scale...blah blah blah.
11-29-2006, 10:05 AM
#123
muahdib4 - yes you are right. But again, does anybody know the specs of a 4300? what makes it a 4300? I can see ROAR say " in X years 4300 will be a class here are the specs for the motors and speedo's" and companies put their motors/batteries in to ROAR, then I could see 4300 getting popular for good reason. You are right about the classes, and that actually isn't really a good thing.
11-29-2006, 10:12 AM
#124
Originally Posted by David Alberico
Stewartfan: You are right but I feel that you missed my point. You don't see any of those guys say that they feel racing would be better with a less horse power motor made the same people. In KC you are either running stock or 4300 and that's it, the problem with it is that it is closed class, at least in stock you can any stock motor, 4300 isn't that way, plus there is no brushed equal. I see Lipos being the future and with minium weight rules it doesn't give an advantage. I could see ROAR coming out and saying "in 2 years brushless stock will be legal" and start legalizing motors. But I see no future for the 4300 class because it is closed to other manufactures in the motor dept. and it is not equal to anything else. I really don't know what a 4300 is or what makes a brushless a 4300, now if there were a set of specs that were adopted and manufactures made 4300 motors based on those I think the 4300 class would then become a class.
In the meantime, what do I think would increase racer turnout? promote a novice class, run what you brought off-road/onroad, stock motors and must be clean, stock sedan rubber tires ONLY, keep 4300 but find a brushed equal. and 12th scale...blah blah blah.
In the meantime, what do I think would increase racer turnout? promote a novice class, run what you brought off-road/onroad, stock motors and must be clean, stock sedan rubber tires ONLY, keep 4300 but find a brushed equal. and 12th scale...blah blah blah.
Stock and 4300 are the most popular right now. That doesn't mean they are the only classes, there are a couple of guys that would put in 5.5s and run mod if enought people showed up. But, no one really want to run mod. Same with 19t. If enough people showed up.
We tried the rubber only thing this past summer. At least two guys tuked tail and ran because they did not like the lower traction.
We have a Novice class, we just don't call it a novice class. It is stock rubber. No LiPos.
The 4300 is a 10.5 turn brushless motor and I believe one other manufactuer is trying to make an equivilent (can't remember who though). Eventhough we all run 4300s, each motor is still different. I have to gear my 4300 a couple teath different than the next guy. I would agree having a 10.5 BL class would be better that limiting to the Novak 4300 and thay day will come, this stuff is just starting to become mainstream. I do, however, like the 4300/LiPo class because it take the battery and motor wars out of it. All the motors and batteries are so equal it puts more in the driver and the car setup (which is the part I enjoy the most).
With that being said, I don't think brushed should go away. Motor tuning is now and always has been part of motor sports. I actaully enjoyed trying to figure out how to make a brushed motor faster. But, I only have some much time to play with my car and I want to spend that time on car setup. (And driving since it seems like I stink lately)
LiPos and new NiMh are pretty even. Where the LiPo is an advantage is they don't loose punch after two months.
All I am saying is that 4300/LiPo has NOT killed sedan racing in our area like you say. If we got rid of that class, we would loose racers.
11-29-2006, 10:39 AM
#125
Originally Posted by David Alberico
You are right about the classes, and that actually isn't really a good thing.
11-29-2006, 11:52 AM
#126
Stewartfan: There is no mod, I believe Steve and Charlie tryied. I race everywhere and talk to everyone, with that said, you are right it has brought in some racers but since it is "the class" (most prestigous to win right now) it has turned racers away, again it is a good idea but just a little bit before it's time here (our area).
muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.
muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.
11-29-2006, 12:14 PM
#127
Tech Addict
Originally Posted by David Alberico
There is no mod, I believe Steve and Charlie tryied.
Originally Posted by David Alberico
I race everywhere and talk to everyone,...
Dirt is not the same as Carpet
11-29-2006, 12:25 PM
#128
Originally Posted by BSYDOR
There were others from P-hill that ran mod too, And I ran 19 turn in their "MOD" class... and we have gone over this argument about why mod isn't benefical at our track....
I haven't seen ya at any On-road races out of town or racing at your local track in the past year in half or even talking to me.....
Dirt is not the same as Carpet
I haven't seen ya at any On-road races out of town or racing at your local track in the past year in half or even talking to me.....
Dirt is not the same as Carpet
I would have loaned ya one.The last 3 races chillicothe had on their carpet I never saw you there??? or did I just miss you?
11-29-2006, 12:26 PM
#129
Help me, help you. 
11-29-2006, 12:29 PM
#131
Tech Addict
I was out of town at a much bigger race than Chilli....
And since when is Chilli your local track???
And since when is Chilli your local track???
11-29-2006, 12:31 PM
#132
Originally Posted by David Alberico
get out of that race car Cole get out!......
That was from Jerry Mcgwire. " Show me da money"
11-29-2006, 12:33 PM
#133
Originally Posted by David Alberico
Stewartfan: There is no mod, I believe Steve and Charlie tryied. I race everywhere and talk to everyone, with that said, you are right it has brought in some racers but since it is "the class" (most prestigous to win right now) it has turned racers away, again it is a good idea but just a little bit before it's time here (our area).
muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.
muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.
11-29-2006, 01:24 PM
#134
Originally Posted by David Alberico
Stewartfan: There is no mod, I believe Steve and Charlie tryied. I race everywhere and talk to everyone, with that said, you are right it has brought in some racers but since it is "the class" (most prestigous to win right now) it has turned racers away, again it is a good idea but just a little bit before it's time here (our area).
muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.
muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.
4300 didn't run them away, they ran them away. And that is all I am going to say about it.
MOD has never gone over in this area. Where were you when they were trying to start MOD.
4300 is benificial in this area. It may be in it's infantcy, but it's not premature.
The fact of the matter is there is not ONE reason racer participation is down. Unfortunatly is not a easy solution as you can tell by the discusstions. However, putting a blanket statement saying that participation will increase 5 fold by mandating ROAR only classes is obsurd.
11-29-2006, 02:04 PM
#135
Racing mod sedan on carpet is almost exclusively the domain of professional drivers. I can't think of a single carpet track in the country that I've heard people say they have a regular turnout for mod racing on the rug. It's just too fast for most people to handle. People don't want to race mod. Look no further than all the semi-pro drivers that are still racing stock and 19T at big events, and don't even glance toward mod. For this style of racing, love it or hate it, it's too much for all but a select few.
The Novak 4300 is a 10.5 turn brushless. It's ancient, and when Novak first released their motors, they used the kV rating as the naming scheme, which is why we've got the 4300 and 5800. I hope they rename them to the 10.5 and 8.5, as that would make more sense, and would fit into their naming scheme better. I imagine if another manufacturer comes out with a 10.5 turn brushless, we'll find a way to integrate it into the "4300" class, and then we can rename it the "10.5T Brushless Class." But, here we are 4 years later, and people are still struggling to get anything to market. And even then, nobody other than Novak has even attempted to bring a slower brushless to market. Should racers really sit around for 5 years and wait for these other companies to catch up before they move on? I think not.
The Novak 4300 is a 10.5 turn brushless. It's ancient, and when Novak first released their motors, they used the kV rating as the naming scheme, which is why we've got the 4300 and 5800. I hope they rename them to the 10.5 and 8.5, as that would make more sense, and would fit into their naming scheme better. I imagine if another manufacturer comes out with a 10.5 turn brushless, we'll find a way to integrate it into the "4300" class, and then we can rename it the "10.5T Brushless Class." But, here we are 4 years later, and people are still struggling to get anything to market. And even then, nobody other than Novak has even attempted to bring a slower brushless to market. Should racers really sit around for 5 years and wait for these other companies to catch up before they move on? I think not.