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Old 11-29-2006, 10:43 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Scottrik
CART was struggling with competitive balance issues, and since the team owners owned the series decisions were being made based strictly on self-interest.

Thanks for clarifying. They were sturggling becuase of competative balance issues, not because someone wanted to start a new 'class' or ammend the rules.



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The IRL split off came about 100% because CART teams told Tony George/Indianapolis Motor Speedway that there was NO way they were going to continue spending a month and 1/3 of their annual budgets to race there. The rationale for the creation of IRL were all PROVEN fictitious as time went on, some sooner than others. ANYONE could build a chassis as long as it met price max with trans. That max crept up to meet what a CART car cost VERY quickly. "American manufacturer involvement" was a joke from the outset--the "Olds Aurora" engine was a bespoke racing unit sharing only bore-spacing with it's name provider. ALL internal componentry was designed and manufactured in UK. All the chassis came from UK and Italy until R&S finally made the show several years later. "More American drivers"...look at the grid today, need I say more. Oh, and that real cost-containment strategy "teams own their own engines instead of those evil leases"...they even finally had to give up on that.

IRL would have failed VERY early on had George not funded several teams from his pocketbook and guaranteed starting positions to IRL regulars the first several years.

Hmmm....Very interesting, learn someting every day. I also realize that the cost-containment stratagies that they were promoting as the reason for the split have long since been gone. And eventhough it would have fail very early, it seems to be doing ok now. It may not be thriving like NASCAR, but they have been adding races the last few years. I've gone out to the Kansas Speedway since it opened and the IRL has been some of the best racing and the stands have been full. I'm actually supprised that the crowds have not gone done, especailly since they raced here over the 4th of July.




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Originally Posted by Scottrik
If you or anyone else believe they race "Chevy's, Fords and Dodges" you are 100% PROOF of the success of NASCAR's marketing. Ain't a single piece on ANY of those cars you can buy from Chevy, Ford, OR Dodge. To say nothing of RWD Taurus', etc. It's a silhouette series, has been for DECADES now. I don't care for NASCAR but their marketing cannot be faulted AT ALL. They provide the perception of close, competitive racing and make whatever rules adjustments it takes REGARDLESS of which team's toes are stepped on. Gary Nelson, their tech director for several years recently, said it isn't a successful season unless he's heard credible testimony from teams running all three mfr. cars that they're at an unfair disadvantage. Don't get me started on NASCAR's business practices though. And don't think they weren't HUGE instigators of the CART/IRL split...open wheelers feud, NASCAR was CLEARLY the victors.
I never said I believe nor do I belive that those are Chevy's, Fords and Dodges. Nor do I believe that they are in any way stock. I do know people who root for drivers because, in their eyes, they drive Chevy, Ford or Dodge. I was trying to point out one of the reasons the series is successful. By keeping the Chevy, Ford and Dodge logos, it creates more marketing opprotinities, the main reason NASCAR is successful. Like you say, it is proof of NASCARS marketing success.

No doubt NASCAR benifited for the CART/IRL split.



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Originally Posted by Scottrik
If the race carries the NASCAR branding/sanction it is 100% to NASCAR rules for whatever class may be competing. The only class that complies with Nextel Cup rules is Nextel Cup. Busch, trucks, SW Tour, Modifieds...if it is a NASCAR sanctioned race the appropriate rules are SLAVISHLY complied with. That doesn't mean that individual tracks that host a NASCAR event or two durning the year don't also host non-NASCAR events as well--just like your local ROAR-affiliate club can't have local series and rules if they choose to do so. But NASCAR calls the shots at the national level, and ROAR should do likewise if it can be shown they are at least trying to act in the best interests of the hobby. In that regard ROAR's mission differs from NASCAR--NASCAR only has to act in their OWN best interest. If you take "stock car racing" as their "hobby" they are busily killing ARCA, ASA, etc as no one there can get sponsor money. So much for supporting diversity.

Agreed. You just said it much better than I did. If you go to the ROAR Nats, but all means, you should follow ROAR rules. There are plenty of other non-ROAR national events that people can run.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not against ROAR. I just think a club race should be able to ammend the ROAR rules for local club races. Especially if it increases participation.



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Originally Posted by Scottrik
Agreed. As long as the classes make sense and work toward promoting particiapation AND growth.

Scottrik
Yes, and I feel that is what our local track is doing this by having a 4300BL/LiPo class.


I think we are saying pretty much the same thing. You are just saying better than I.

Lack of participation is due to lack of visibility (marketing) and, to some degree, cost. Following ROAR rules to the letter will not increase participation, and clubs allowing a 4300 LiPo class is not hurting participation. But ROAR rules need to be used as a guide line.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:44 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by David Alberico
Stewartfan: You are right but I feel that you missed my point. You don't see any of those guys say that they feel racing would be better with a less horse power motor made the same people. In KC you are either running stock or 4300 and that's it, the problem with it is that it is closed class, at least in stock you can any stock motor, 4300 isn't that way, plus there is no brushed equal. I see Lipos being the future and with minium weight rules it doesn't give an advantage. I could see ROAR coming out and saying "in 2 years brushless stock will be legal" and start legalizing motors. But I see no future for the 4300 class because it is closed to other manufactures in the motor dept. and it is not equal to anything else. I really don't know what a 4300 is or what makes a brushless a 4300, now if there were a set of specs that were adopted and manufactures made 4300 motors based on those I think the 4300 class would then become a class.

In the meantime, what do I think would increase racer turnout? promote a novice class, run what you brought off-road/onroad, stock motors and must be clean, stock sedan rubber tires ONLY, keep 4300 but find a brushed equal. and 12th scale...blah blah blah.
I do believe that here in KC they will allow ANY class as long as there is 3-4 people wanting to run that class. Example...if 3-4 guys brought stock Tamiya Mini-Coopers then they'd open a Mini-Cooper class and if 3-4 people wanted to run 19T Spec Rubber or Foam then they would run that class. Heck, give me 6 months or so to learn how to race and I'll find a way to run a class with you or if you know other people wanting to run a particular class then help get them to the track and get them involved. It seems that people (like me just learning) want to run Stock Rubber/Stock Foam or the 4300 class. Both of which allow a brushless type motor. Brushless motors are drawing more and more people due to their lack of maintainance. That is nothing but a plus. Maybe I'm missing something since I've only been out there a couple times but I'll be back out there Sunday and can find out. My car is almost ready. New radio just got here today...YEAH!!!! Personally, I think brushless is the future. If you read the thread regarding ROAR to 4-cell, you'll see that they believe it's headed that route too. I think the future will be 13.5 brushless for stock, 4300s will replace 19T and then of course Mod will be completely open. Both ROAR and the motor companies will have to come up with the standards for the Brushless motor classes that are to come.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:05 AM   #123
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muahdib4 - yes you are right. But again, does anybody know the specs of a 4300? what makes it a 4300? I can see ROAR say " in X years 4300 will be a class here are the specs for the motors and speedo's" and companies put their motors/batteries in to ROAR, then I could see 4300 getting popular for good reason. You are right about the classes, and that actually isn't really a good thing.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:12 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Alberico
Stewartfan: You are right but I feel that you missed my point. You don't see any of those guys say that they feel racing would be better with a less horse power motor made the same people. In KC you are either running stock or 4300 and that's it, the problem with it is that it is closed class, at least in stock you can any stock motor, 4300 isn't that way, plus there is no brushed equal. I see Lipos being the future and with minium weight rules it doesn't give an advantage. I could see ROAR coming out and saying "in 2 years brushless stock will be legal" and start legalizing motors. But I see no future for the 4300 class because it is closed to other manufactures in the motor dept. and it is not equal to anything else. I really don't know what a 4300 is or what makes a brushless a 4300, now if there were a set of specs that were adopted and manufactures made 4300 motors based on those I think the 4300 class would then become a class.

In the meantime, what do I think would increase racer turnout? promote a novice class, run what you brought off-road/onroad, stock motors and must be clean, stock sedan rubber tires ONLY, keep 4300 but find a brushed equal. and 12th scale...blah blah blah.

Stock and 4300 are the most popular right now. That doesn't mean they are the only classes, there are a couple of guys that would put in 5.5s and run mod if enought people showed up. But, no one really want to run mod. Same with 19t. If enough people showed up.

We tried the rubber only thing this past summer. At least two guys tuked tail and ran because they did not like the lower traction.

We have a Novice class, we just don't call it a novice class. It is stock rubber. No LiPos.

The 4300 is a 10.5 turn brushless motor and I believe one other manufactuer is trying to make an equivilent (can't remember who though). Eventhough we all run 4300s, each motor is still different. I have to gear my 4300 a couple teath different than the next guy. I would agree having a 10.5 BL class would be better that limiting to the Novak 4300 and thay day will come, this stuff is just starting to become mainstream. I do, however, like the 4300/LiPo class because it take the battery and motor wars out of it. All the motors and batteries are so equal it puts more in the driver and the car setup (which is the part I enjoy the most).

With that being said, I don't think brushed should go away. Motor tuning is now and always has been part of motor sports. I actaully enjoyed trying to figure out how to make a brushed motor faster. But, I only have some much time to play with my car and I want to spend that time on car setup. (And driving since it seems like I stink lately)

LiPos and new NiMh are pretty even. Where the LiPo is an advantage is they don't loose punch after two months.

All I am saying is that 4300/LiPo has NOT killed sedan racing in our area like you say. If we got rid of that class, we would loose racers.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:39 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by David Alberico
You are right about the classes, and that actually isn't really a good thing.
Really??? So if 5 guys show up and all have Tamiya direct-drive cars with the same setups....the track should just tell them to either race in one of the predetermined "ROAR approved" classes or go home?!?!? Or were you referring to the Brushless classes being the future??? How do you think brushed motor tuners who tune their 27T Stock motors to the point of running faster than most 19T Spec motors make a novice feel? If I showed up to the track knowing that without years of experience tuning motors, I would NEVER be competitive....well then I just would leave. That's not good for the hobby or for the novice racer. Brushless helps level the playing field where becoming a better driver is more important then knowing who to push your motor to the very edge. When I lose, I'll know it's my driving, not my motor. You may not be in support of brushless motors but that's where the hobby is headed. You may not like the fact that people are running a 4300 class but that's what THEY choose to run. You're more than welcome to run whatever you like. I'm sure people will be more then willing to run with you. It's all about having fun and not exclusion. Like I said, the guys out there made me feel welcome and didn't make me feel like I needed to buy the latest hot-rod chassis and mod-motors. They pointed me in the direction of competitive, yet affordable options. All of which will help me get started and have fun without my wife leaving me or my child going hungry. Not that I would choose a hobby over feeding my family but..well, you get the idea.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:52 PM   #126
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Stewartfan: There is no mod, I believe Steve and Charlie tryied. I race everywhere and talk to everyone, with that said, you are right it has brought in some racers but since it is "the class" (most prestigous to win right now) it has turned racers away, again it is a good idea but just a little bit before it's time here (our area).

muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:14 PM   #127
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There is no mod, I believe Steve and Charlie tryied.
There were others from P-hill that ran mod too, And I ran 19 turn in their "MOD" class... and we have gone over this argument about why mod isn't benefical at our track....and it died....

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I race everywhere and talk to everyone,...
I haven't seen ya at any On-road races out of town or racing at your local track in the past year in half or even talking to me.....

Dirt is not the same as Carpet
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:25 PM   #128
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There were others from P-hill that ran mod too, And I ran 19 turn in their "MOD" class... and we have gone over this argument about why mod isn't benefical at our track....




I haven't seen ya at any On-road races out of town or racing at your local track in the past year in half or even talking to me.....

Dirt is not the same as Carpet
I remember coming out and watching one night, looked like you could have used a mod motor I would have loaned ya one.

The last 3 races chillicothe had on their carpet I never saw you there??? or did I just miss you?
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:26 PM   #129
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:28 PM   #130
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get out of that race car Cole get out!......
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:29 PM   #131
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I was out of town at a much bigger race than Chilli....
And since when is Chilli your local track???
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:31 PM   #132
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get out of that race car Cole get out!......
You suck at movie trivia..

That was from Jerry Mcgwire. " Show me da money"
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:33 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Alberico
Stewartfan: There is no mod, I believe Steve and Charlie tryied. I race everywhere and talk to everyone, with that said, you are right it has brought in some racers but since it is "the class" (most prestigous to win right now) it has turned racers away, again it is a good idea but just a little bit before it's time here (our area).

muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.
So you want tracks to limit the classes but when one of the classes that the track is limited to is a brushless 4300 class ( by racers choice and that requires less maintainance and is easier to get involved in than Mod)...then that's a problem and you'd rather have everyone spend every dime and extra amount of time they have building motors and buying extra motors and brushes and springs and armatures rather than use a single motor that doesn't require all that. I know that ROAR does allow brushless in Mod and several of the guys there have 4.5 and 5.5 brushless motors. Also, at the speeds of the 4300s, I wouldn't have any idea how someone could control a super low turn motor on that track. It just seems like you'd run it into the boards and destroy the car every run...or back off on the throttle and run just as fast as the 4300 guys. Well, to each his own I guess. You're more than welcome to feel how you do but the people racing seem to be really enjoying themselves and I personally can't wait to get involved in the 4300 class which ROAR is already talking about making an official class anyway (also talking about 13.5s as a class all their own too). Would you be happy with racing in KC if it were limited to only 3 classes of TCs? What if they were 13.5, 4300s and Mod (open to brushed and brushless)? Many companies are currently working on equivalent motors for the 13.5 and 4300s now and by this time next year, there will be choices in motors for those classes. It really does look like that's the future....for both motors and for racing classes.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:24 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Alberico
Stewartfan: There is no mod, I believe Steve and Charlie tryied. I race everywhere and talk to everyone, with that said, you are right it has brought in some racers but since it is "the class" (most prestigous to win right now) it has turned racers away, again it is a good idea but just a little bit before it's time here (our area).

muahdib4: I love brushless, I have one in my mini dirt oval, it's cool, tons of power, I'm looking forward to getting the tekin brushless systems soon. But about the 5 guys that show up with something different? ok, if some guys just showed up and wanted to race but most likely it is 3 or 4 guys that want to start a new class and that goes with the 25 total racers and 10 different directions.

4300 didn't run them away, they ran them away. And that is all I am going to say about it.

MOD has never gone over in this area. Where were you when they were trying to start MOD.

4300 is benificial in this area. It may be in it's infantcy, but it's not premature.

The fact of the matter is there is not ONE reason racer participation is down. Unfortunatly is not a easy solution as you can tell by the discusstions. However, putting a blanket statement saying that participation will increase 5 fold by mandating ROAR only classes is obsurd.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:04 PM   #135
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Racing mod sedan on carpet is almost exclusively the domain of professional drivers. I can't think of a single carpet track in the country that I've heard people say they have a regular turnout for mod racing on the rug. It's just too fast for most people to handle. People don't want to race mod. Look no further than all the semi-pro drivers that are still racing stock and 19T at big events, and don't even glance toward mod. For this style of racing, love it or hate it, it's too much for all but a select few.

The Novak 4300 is a 10.5 turn brushless. It's ancient, and when Novak first released their motors, they used the kV rating as the naming scheme, which is why we've got the 4300 and 5800. I hope they rename them to the 10.5 and 8.5, as that would make more sense, and would fit into their naming scheme better. I imagine if another manufacturer comes out with a 10.5 turn brushless, we'll find a way to integrate it into the "4300" class, and then we can rename it the "10.5T Brushless Class." But, here we are 4 years later, and people are still struggling to get anything to market. And even then, nobody other than Novak has even attempted to bring a slower brushless to market. Should racers really sit around for 5 years and wait for these other companies to catch up before they move on? I think not.
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