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Old 12-08-2006, 01:43 PM   #661
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LOL everynow and then i take a break from work and i take a look at this page....im obsessed with 10th scale pan.....are there any prototype pics of the MLP car coming out???.....I want to wait to see the MLP if not I just might buy the CRC
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:34 PM   #662
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Track 50 F dry, a bit dusty to start then medium traction.

Caster
Pro ten Holland- I did the caster experiment again. First I tried 0 caster 0 reactive caster. I run my fastest laps when I use brakes into the hairpins. The 0 caster completely unsettles the car on corner entry to the hairpins. Too much turn in. Too much tire scrub. Not so bad without brakes, but this is not as fast for me. I had a new mid corner push now. I went back to 4 degree caster (0 reactive caster). This adds needed wedge to bring in the mid corner. The car felt good. I did not have too much steering with this chassis 2/3 of the way through the sweeper with this setting like I did with the old chassis. I can leave the reactive caster at 0. Now maybe the best setting for me would be 2 degrees caster. I'll try that later.
I opened the vents over the hood and a little more than half the vents over the tires (to save some body rigidity). I noticed little change in the corners, but manners on the straight were slightly improved. No front end lift. The front shocks are working very well.

Boomer-The sissy bar bit the dust. The tape saved my tire. The material in these RC10L nerf wings is just too brittle. If they were made of nylon or something just slightly harder than nylon they would probably work well. I put on the short solid graphite nerf bars from the Pantoura. I had a new set in the pit box. I mounted my body posts on their tips.

The RC 10L front bumper bit the dust. I had to remove some material behind the holes in the bumper to clear my front shocks. A hit on the flapper boards pivoted the bumper and broke it free from the screw. I'll mount a small graphite bumper or maybe just corner protectors that I see for the 1/12 scale if they will fit. I had 3 Nitro Sedans to spar with so we drove fairly hard.

OK maybe its best not to mount your body post on a crash part.

The car worked fastest today with dual batteries as they got through the dust better. Much better top speed on the straight with the dual batteries.

Jaco Pinks are more suited to this Novak 3.5 R motor than are the Jaco greens. There is more rip out of the corners which actually must have heated this tire a bit to make it work when previously it was too hard. The greens would probably work great with a 19 turn as they work with my 4.5R motor pretty well.

Slicvicpr87-Marty has some prototype wide pan pics in this thread. He also has an MLP GTP thread that is probably a page or two down at the moment.

New Pics of the New Wide Pantoura with Powell Chassis are on the previous page if you have not seen them.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-09-2006 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 12-09-2006, 12:42 AM   #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
Track 50 F dry, a bit dusty to start then medium traction.

Caster
Pro ten Holland- I did the caster experiment again. First I tried 0 caster 0 reactive caster. I run my fastest laps when I use brakes into the hairpins. The 0 caster completely unsettles the car on corner entry to the hairpins. Too much turn in. Too much tire scrub. Not so bad without brakes, but this is not as fast for me. I had a new mid corner push now. I went back to 4 degree caster (0 reactive caster). This adds needed wedge to bring in the mid corner. The car felt good. I did not have too much steering with this chassis 2/3 of the way through the sweeper with this setting like I did with the old chassis. I can leave the reactive caster at 0. Now maybe the best setting for me would be 2 degrees caster. I'll try that later.
I opened the vents over the hood and a little more than half the vents over the tires (to save some body rigidity). I noticed little change in the corners, but manners on the straight were slightly improved. No front end lift. The front shocks are working very well.

Boomer-The sissy bar bit the dust. The tape saved my tire. The material in these RC10L nerf wings is just too brittle. If they were made of nylon or something just slightly harder than nylon they would probably work well. I put on the short solid graphite nerf bars from the Pantoura. I had a new set in the pit box. I mounted my body posts on their tips.

The RC 10L front bumper bit the dust. I had to remove some material behind the holes in the bumper to clear my front shocks. A hit on the flapper boards pivoted the bumper and broke it free from the screw. I'll mount a small graphite bumper or maybe just corner protectors that I see for the 1/12 scale if they will fit. I had 3 Nitro Sedans to spar with so we drove fairly hard.

OK maybe its best not to mount your body post on a crash part.

The car worked fastest today with dual batteries as they got through the dust better. Much better top speed on the straight with the dual batteries.

Jaco Pinks are more suited to this Novak 3.5 R motor than are the Jaco greens. There is more rip out of the corners which actually must have heated this tire a bit to make it work when previously it was too hard. The greens would probably work great with a 19 turn as they work with my 4.5R motor pretty well.

Slicvicpr87-Marty has some prototype wide pan pics in this thread. He also has an MLP GTP thread that is probably a page or two down at the moment.

New Pics of the New Wide Pantoura with Powell Chassis are on the previous page if you have not seen them.
My local track has no real hairpins, all are flowing corners. So if you drive conservatively the 0 degree setup really works here. I also use a jap-soft front tire, which has less traction than a purple.
Do you use the inline front axles?

I also found greens are not suited for a dusty track. On a clean track they work well. On dusty tracks nothing beats a pink-family rear tire.

Could you try a setup with one battery and extra weight on the rear-most section of your main chassis?

I also ditched the wide 10L bumper and L2 nerf wings a long time ago. Now I run without any nerf wing or front bumper. Works just as well for me.
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:22 AM   #664
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man life would be easier fro us starting out if tire colors were standardized from brand to brand...
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Old 12-09-2006, 08:43 AM   #665
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Pro-ten Holland- I had planned to run that light Orion Avionics LiPo at the next session with about 3 ounces of lead toward the back. I'll give you a report. My axles are inline now. There is an improvement late in the sweeper which might be due to them. I can use more power. I think the old outside axle was oscillating some around the kingpin on the sweeper which would toss the rear out with too much power. My evidence is increased wear of the pivots on that side and the need for the reactive caster block to reduce caster late in the corner. Corner entry seems about the same with the same caster values for these inline axles.

I checked to see if Amp Max saddle packs would fit my car. They seem to be very tall and very narrow for some reason. Not a good fit to my car. If they were sized more like 3 NiMH cells, I could use them. I can investigate a more rearward weight bias now as the front is more stable at high speed with the front shocks.

TallyRC-I totally agree. I assume they make some effort to match, but if the foam is not exactly from the same supplier there are bound to be differences.
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Old 12-09-2006, 02:40 PM   #666
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Ok this is what I did. I added 2.7 ounces of lead under the rear of the Orion LiPo battery (6.6 oz is the battery weight). I moved the front body posts back to the #8 screws at the corner of the chassis and removed the two screws and nuts that were holding on the bumper. I trimmed the ends off the bumper but kept the center section, as I think it aids the aerodynamics on the straight. The car is at 42 ounces now. The rear weighs 6 ounces more than the front with the body on. This compares to the rear weighing 3 ounces more than the front with the body on before the changes with the same battery. I have a tiny Spektrum receiver coming. Hope the car does not start flying again. Test tomorrow unless it rains.

Pro-ten-Holland If you get near a pair of scales sometime put a beam on each one and give me the front and rear weight on your car ready to run with transponder.

John
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:06 PM   #667
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Parts list for the wide Pantoura pan car
Pics of the New Wide Pantoura

Powell
Custom Wide 2.5 mm Wide Pantoura Chassis $65
Custom Wide 2.5 mm Wide Pantoura Bottom Plate $16.00
Consider getting a spare bottom plate
3314 10L2 Tri-Shock Top Plate $14.00

Calandra Racing Concepts (CRC)
1 CRC 1109 Battery Top brace
1 CRC 1370 Cross Plate-Knife V3, Pantoura
1 CRC 1380One Piece Links for CK V3 (2)
1 CRC 1346-Antenna/shock mount-plastic
1 CRC 420-low roll center kit CK
1 CRC 1240 Complete Front End
1 CRC 4096 Belleville washers
1103 Pantoura Nerf Wings (optional, these are too short for a wide pan car but I mount my body post on their tips.
1-CRC 1384 2x56 ball studs and ball cups. These ballstuds are to mount the front shocks to the upper A-arm. you need to drill a 1/16 inch hole to install them.

Associated, Duratrax, Ghandini, Corally
2 DTX CTX 1433 Bearing 1/4 x 3/8 Flanged (2) Duratrax
1 COR 13779 TC2 Jack the Gripper Traction Compound CoRallyUSA
2 ASC4442 Chassis Standoff Blue 2 pair for a Wide Pantoura
1 ASC3323 Thick #8 washers to set ride height
1 ASC 8321 Rear axle spacers Aluminum (2)
1 ASC C0082 4 mm ballstud set RC18T
1 ASCC2139 front shock set plastic RC18T
1 ASC31111 TC4 Servo Mount You need to drill and countersink holes to mount these front shocks
1 ASC2123 Rear Gold Spring RC18T
1 ASCC2127 Rear Aluminum Shock Kit RC18T Loosen the ballcups 2 full turns to get the right length
2 ASC2082 Steel Pivot Ball 12 L for center pivot
1 ASC2095 Bearing height adaptor #1 offset (IRS sells a set of these also)
1 ASC2096 Bearing height adaptor #2 offset
1 ASCC2094 Bearing height adaptor no offset
1 ASC 4617 4-40 x 3/8 button head screws
1 ASC4511 Antenna Shock mount
1 ASC2249 Aluminum 4-40 locknut
1 ASCC5185 Rear Body Mount 10L
1 ASCC8114 4-40 thin nut (for football)
1 Ganc1810 GRP Purple mounted front foam tire
1 Ganc 1860 GRP Pink Rear Mounted foam tire
1 large touring car shock for the center shock
You will also need 4-40 flathead screws in 5/16, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8. 8 Socket head screws 4-40 3/8 for rear tires. 5/8 x 4-40 Long button head screws to mount rear body posts

Losi
2 LOSA6009 female ball studs
1 LOSA3078 Diff Screw with Bellville washers I used these washers under all the chassis mounted ball studs to reinforce the area.

Kimbrough
2 C1189 Kimbrough 48 pitch 90 tooth spur gear
1 KIM201 Mid size servo saver, black

Irrgang Racing Service (I.R.S.)
1-IRS215BL left side clamping hub 3/4 inch blue aluminum
1-IRS2121BL Right side D-drive Hube Aluminum blue for Wide Road Pan Car
1 IRS160BL Pod side plates Aluminum Blue Anodized
1- IRS2101 Wide Pan Graphite axle.
1- IRS528BL long diff cone spacer blue
Stormer had the blue pieces.
1 IRS207 Ceramic Diff Balls ( you will never go back to standard steel balls) These are $20 from IRS and possibly misspriced at Stormer.
1 IRS 221 Silicone Diff Lube
1 IRS 511D 10 D-drive diff rings
I bought a set of 10 but they really last a long time with ceramic balls

Protoform
PFM 140722 Peugeot 505B .030 body

MurdockRC
WT3200B Thin Blue Spring Buckets
WT2703 1/8 x5/16 flanged ceramic bearing
Ultra Front End Kit WT3151 (or use the stock trailing axles and buy a set of non progressive large diameter springs and long king pins (1 3/8 inch hinge pins) from Murdock)

Links to all these items are on my first post. Your hobby shop may be albe to order most of these items or they may not want to. Tower and Stormer carry a lot of these parts as well.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 07-31-2007 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:04 PM   #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slicvicpr87
LOL everynow and then i take a break from work and i take a look at this page....im obsessed with 10th scale pan.....are there any prototype pics of the MLP car coming out???.....I want to wait to see the MLP if not I just might buy the CRC

Well if you go with the CRC Pantoura ( I would start here like the rest of us )
You can upgrade to the Powell or MLP later down the road.

MLP will fill all orders to date and then shut down for 15 to 30 days and in mid Jan 2007 to Feb 1st 2007 we will be back with a full line of cars and our New Pan car as well in 190mm 200mm and 235mm for the New Year!

All cars will be made and waiting for orders! we will have 5 of each car in stock at a time! Then as they sell we will make more. I will post here our New Pan car and front suspension ok.
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:46 PM   #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slicvicpr87
LOL everynow and then i take a break from work and i take a look at this page....im obsessed with 10th scale pan.....are there any prototype pics of the MLP car coming out???.....I want to wait to see the MLP if not I just might buy the CRC
There are a few of us at Willis who still have pan cars... I have both a wide and a narrow... I may show up next weekend and run my narrow on 4 cells...
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Old 12-09-2006, 08:11 PM   #670
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hmm...maybe after x-mas i will get my hands on one....just a little confused on things......the CRC Pantoura comes with a CF chassis? in the CRC pic it looks like a fiberglass kinda material (like a micro RS4) ...but the Powel is a chassis upgrade that will give you 230mm width? and what about this MLP is it a add on kit to the pantoura ? or is it a entirely new Pan car kit?....I saw some touring car adapters for the 10th scale corally pan car....you guys think these will fit the Pantoura?....
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Old 12-09-2006, 08:18 PM   #671
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john, your either the worlds most organized person, your bored, or you don't really work for a living... but with posts like that last one, i feel that someone really needs to commend you on all that you are doing for the hobby... truely outstanding work, and if nobody else has said it, we all really appreciate it.. i certainly look forward too new posts every day.. frankly in all my time combing pages and pages of rc websites and forums, this continues to be the single most informative thread i have ever encountered.. between yourself, and the countless contributions by several of the others like proten, marty, doug, vtl, everyone.... the wealth of information here is unmatched.. thanks
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Old 12-09-2006, 08:24 PM   #672
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the pantoura is a CF cahssis, but 190mm. the powel conversion makes it a ~235mm chassis, but you will need a new axel and hubbs yet. MLP is still prototyping, but generally he provides complete cars.. if you simply want upgrades he can do that too, but yo can "one stop shop" from him if you want.. mlp is producing 3 new versions of pan car kits 190mm 200mm 235mm some with full suspension and some more traditional, some belt drive some direct drive..
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Old 12-09-2006, 10:47 PM   #673
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TallyRC- Thanks. Well I would rather be practicing today but the off-road race on Saturday shuts down the on-road track to prevent frequency conflict. Not everybody has the Spektrum yet.


Wedge

Wedge is something they talk about adding during Nascar races. I talk about it when I discuss caster. Here is how it works. The right front tire on an oval car which always turns left is highly loaded reducing the front axles cornering efficiency. When you wedge the chassis you increase the preload on the right rear or the left front. Now the left front is more heavily loaded as a result of the wedge. This load comes off the right front. You get more steering traction as a result of the increased front axle cornering efficiency. You can also subtract wedge to loose some steering traction.

Now using some caster adds wedge to the chassis, but only when you turn. I wanted to make sure I was not blowing smoke with the pan car, when I say this, because the chassis is not rigidly connected front to back (it pivots in the middle back) and the rear side springs are generally on the wimpy side. I put the pan car (turned on) on the scales, gave it full left lock with the transmitter. The left front gained an ounce the right front (the heavily loaded tire on the oval left hand turns ) lost weight. Each front tire was on a scale. So this is what I expected, but wanted to make sure. When you turn the dual rate wheel down you are reducing steering throw but also reducing this wedge effect. You might wonder if 1 ounce is significant, but it is a good percent of the total car weight.
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Old 12-10-2006, 01:13 PM   #674
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john, can you double check your part number on the "complete kit" axle setup? you have IRS-2123bl, and i think it may be IRS-2134BL maybe? i'm just doing some early shoping around to get my ducks in a row and want to get it all right. thanks..
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Old 12-10-2006, 03:13 PM   #675
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IRS 2134 is for an offset pod. I believe that would be oval. No good for a road car. The pod is offset to move weight left on the oval cars.

2133BL is for a wide pan car with non offset pod. This would be like for the Powell chassis with wide rear pod plates. I corrected my post. IRS may be out of the BL (blue parts). Stormer has some.

Now this is what I ordered to convert my narrow pod Pantoura car to a wide car (no Powell chassis, custom front adaptors, kept the narrow rear pod)
IRS2101 Wide Pan graphite axle
IRS2121 Wide Pan (non offset pod) right hand hub
IRS220 1 1/4 inch double clamp hub
Photos in the thread.

I bought this instead of an axle kit because you then can use a short spacer on the left side. You could stack the Associated Supespeedway axle spacers (about 1/8 inch wide each) plus some Associated 1/4 inch I.D. shims to get the left and right width the same. This would avoid having to custom machine a spacer for the left side. You could stack spacers on the right side as well.

If you plan to make spacers to convert a narrow pod car to wide and keep the narrow rear pod, you could use a very long spacer on the left side and just order the 2133 axle kit with short left hub. I believe this is the setup on Pro-Ten Holland's car. This would have less rotating mass than having a long left side hub.

You avoid the need for custom spacers and extended pinions with the wide pod Powell chassis.

http://rcvehicles.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.teamirsrc.com

Narrow Pantoura
I have my original Pantoura converted back to narrow. It is still in racing shape in case Marty sends me a front end to test. I will have front shocks mounted on it soon along with the Novak GTB 4.5 R motor and Novak controller. I put the Sphere comp back on the wide car as it is .4 ounces lighter (but without the fan which quit on me. I don't need the fan in winter). I'll give it a test soon with the HPI stilletto body that is pictured early in the thread. I should be faster with it now from practice.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-10-2006 at 10:01 PM.
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