Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.
10-15-2006, 09:09 PM
#286
Most sounds good to me But this here: 'Independent front suspension with double front A-arms that both move. Very low to fit the GTP bodies.'
So the front would just be spring loaded ? No shock? and the spring would mount below the upper arm and compress the lower arm with a spring seat on the arm and the rear side shocks will dampen the front ?
Do I have this right ?
See what I wanted to do is go with a Independent front suspension with double front A-arms that both move. Very low to fit the GTP bodies Because they would be micro shocks and mount like my F206F1 or like a real LMP car cantievered shocks .
So the front would just be spring loaded ? No shock? and the spring would mount below the upper arm and compress the lower arm with a spring seat on the arm and the rear side shocks will dampen the front ?
Do I have this right ?
See what I wanted to do is go with a Independent front suspension with double front A-arms that both move. Very low to fit the GTP bodies Because they would be micro shocks and mount like my F206F1 or like a real LMP car cantievered shocks .
10-15-2006, 09:38 PM
#287
A dampened front end would certainly help. Only spring loaded works, but we usually put a little gease on the kingpin to add a little dampening.
If it would fit the standard front end mounting positions, and be versatile for both 1/10th and 12th scale you would get a hot seller!
If it would fit the standard front end mounting positions, and be versatile for both 1/10th and 12th scale you would get a hot seller!
10-15-2006, 09:48 PM
#288
Marty-Here is what I think. The Associated front suspension that is found on the 1/12 pan car is almost good enough for me. It is almost just like you describe except that there is a tiny spring below the bottom fixed A-arm attached around the kingpin. The steering knuckle on bump pulls the kingpin up ( and the upper A-arm up) and compresses the spring. On a pan car the rear side shocks (if installed) are just front shocks mounted way back in my opinion. They dampen bumps from the front suspension all the way back there, but they also dampen a bouncing (twisting) pod. This is essential on a rough track to prevent spins. You probably don't need front shocks although they would add bling as they say.
A couple of problems with the associated front end on my track. The springs bite into the plastic ball seat creating play. A hard washer helps this. The tiny springs are really punished, and they compress in length as there is not quite enough travel. Almost enough. 3/16 would probably do it. They are just a little bit dainty for a rough outdoor track at the very high speeds I run it. It's nice to keep the front dam off the ground, but the dam really needs to be low enough to touch once in a while for good performance on the rough straight and the sweeper. The Associated suspension bottoms too hard on the bumps and sends the front of the car up and thus the car airborne if the aero package is not just right. Front shocks would help this, but the center shock does this task also. The problem is there is not enough travel for it to do its job.
I have not worked out any details on the front suspension with twin moving A-arms, but it could be just like the rear suspension on your Indi car. You would basically have to find room under the low bodies for the spring. The spring could be placed on an angled strut between the A-arms. One end of the strut inboard and high and the other end outboard and low.
A couple of problems with the associated front end on my track. The springs bite into the plastic ball seat creating play. A hard washer helps this. The tiny springs are really punished, and they compress in length as there is not quite enough travel. Almost enough. 3/16 would probably do it. They are just a little bit dainty for a rough outdoor track at the very high speeds I run it. It's nice to keep the front dam off the ground, but the dam really needs to be low enough to touch once in a while for good performance on the rough straight and the sweeper. The Associated suspension bottoms too hard on the bumps and sends the front of the car up and thus the car airborne if the aero package is not just right. Front shocks would help this, but the center shock does this task also. The problem is there is not enough travel for it to do its job.
I have not worked out any details on the front suspension with twin moving A-arms, but it could be just like the rear suspension on your Indi car. You would basically have to find room under the low bodies for the spring. The spring could be placed on an angled strut between the A-arms. One end of the strut inboard and high and the other end outboard and low.
10-16-2006, 09:16 AM
#290
I'm working on the following setup:
standard associated front lower suspension arm. Kingpin of a Asso T3 truck -> with a boll joint on top (longer for lower rollcentre, and less parts to wear out).
Standard 10th pancar lenght (longer than 12th scale) front springs.
Standard Associated upper suspension arm
0 degree caster decrease upper suspension arm mount, with mounting hole lowered as much as possible for maximum steering.
If only we could get some damping in there it would be perfect!
standard associated front lower suspension arm. Kingpin of a Asso T3 truck -> with a boll joint on top (longer for lower rollcentre, and less parts to wear out).
Standard 10th pancar lenght (longer than 12th scale) front springs.
Standard Associated upper suspension arm
0 degree caster decrease upper suspension arm mount, with mounting hole lowered as much as possible for maximum steering.
If only we could get some damping in there it would be perfect!
10-16-2006, 10:27 AM
#291
Marty- I measured the actual wheel rate on the front of my pan car with the setup in the photo. I put the brass weight on the tire and measured the movement at the axle. It was 16.2 lb/in. This compares to about 6.5 lb/inch for a 4 wheel drive touring car on asphalt. The touring car used a blue Associated 17 lb spring to accomplish this.
Pro-ten Holland- I like your idea of lowering the front roll center. My car handled much better when it was more supple.
Pro-ten Holland- I like your idea of lowering the front roll center. My car handled much better when it was more supple.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-16-2006 at 02:11 PM.
10-16-2006, 02:13 PM
#292
how about good micro shocks like those of the rc18b? they could be mounted as john said across the hypotenuse of the lower and upper arms? obviosuly need stifer spring rates than available for the 18b/t, and to mechanically limit their travel....
___________________
\
..\
....\
......\
_____________________
hope that works.. obviously less inclined to get it in there, but the lower the angle, the higher the required spring rate...
___________________
\
..\
....\
......\
_____________________
hope that works.. obviously less inclined to get it in there, but the lower the angle, the higher the required spring rate...
10-16-2006, 03:37 PM
#294
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
Marty- I measured the actual wheel rate on the front of my pan car with the setup in the photo. I put the brass weight on the tire and measured the movement at the axle. It was 16.2 lb/in. This compares to about 6.5 lb/inch for a 4 wheel drive touring car on asphalt. The touring car used a blue Associated 17 lb spring to accomplish this.
Pro-ten Holland- I like your idea of lowering the front roll center. My car handled much better when it was more supple.
Pro-ten Holland- I like your idea of lowering the front roll center. My car handled much better when it was more supple.
This is Info I can use Thanks John.
I like the setup looks like my place here LOL.
10-16-2006, 03:39 PM
#295
If anyone is interested in a wide Pantoura, attached is a PDF of a wide chassis and bottom pod plate drawing. I have produced the chassis in 2.5 and 3mm carbon fiber. This allows you to build a 235mm car without adapter plates and spacers
Pictures of one of the actual cars can be found in the 1/10 pan car thread in the larger scales and oval forum.
D.P.
Pictures of one of the actual cars can be found in the 1/10 pan car thread in the larger scales and oval forum.
D.P.
10-16-2006, 03:49 PM
#296
Originally Posted by tallyrc
how about good micro shocks like those of the rc18b? they could be mounted as john said across the hypotenuse of the lower and upper arms? obviosuly need stifer spring rates than available for the 18b/t, and to mechanically limit their travel....
___________________
\
..\
....\
......\
_____________________
hope that works.. obviously less inclined to get it in there, but the lower the angle, the higher the required spring rate...
___________________
\
..\
....\
......\
_____________________
hope that works.. obviously less inclined to get it in there, but the lower the angle, the higher the required spring rate...
See the Travel on the front of the F206F1 car is only Max 5mm Mini 0mm
This has the same rear setup as your Pan cars and it is done so this will make a good test car.
Last edited by Marty Peterson; 08-03-2008 at 12:44 PM.
10-16-2006, 03:51 PM
#297
Originally Posted by DPowell
If anyone is interested in a wide Pantoura, attached is a PDF of a wide chassis and bottom pod plate drawing. I have produced the chassis in 2.5 and 3mm carbon fiber. This allows you to build a 235mm car without adapter plates and spacers
Pictures of one of the actual cars can be found in the 1/10 pan car thread in the larger scales and oval forum.
D.P.
Pictures of one of the actual cars can be found in the 1/10 pan car thread in the larger scales and oval forum.
D.P.
Do you sell this lower setup ?
Last edited by Marty Peterson; 10-16-2006 at 05:13 PM.
10-16-2006, 06:29 PM
#298
I thought that I would point out that when the Peugeot body was installed on my wide pan that the servo saver actually protrudes up into the forward part of the canopy. The flat top of the car is actually a 1/4 inch or so lower than the servo saver top. The wheelbase is 255 mm to accomodate current wide pan bodies. The servo is angled to fit the wheelbase and allow 6 cells, I guess.
I'll describe another springing system that I have described in posts on this web site that has been used some in formula one and avoids some of the stiction in the front suspension. This stiction is very important in our small touring cars. I find that a slight increase (very slightly bent hinge pin) really reduces cornering traction. It makes the tires bounce over the high spots; it reduces tire compliance.
"The flexure-pivot bearing for the inboard mounting of wishbones is also gaining popularity. Offering zero friction and free play, and lighter and stiffer than a rod-end, they are formed unto the ends of wishbones as a continuous extension of the carbon fibres from which the wishbones are made (steel wishbones have welded-in high tensile steel flexure pivots). Pioneered by John Barnard on the 1994 Ferrari, they offer a small gain in suspension performance, but are an extremely elegant design detail."
In other words the lower arm could actually be fixed but flexible giving most of the suspension spring rate. Thin graphite sheet (blade). An upper A-arm would provide camber control. Then a tiny spring over shock could be added to make it tuneable. The Associated fixed lower arm is a flexure to some extent, but the stiction on this suspension when the kingpin needs to move is huge from the king pins sliding through the plastic bushings and having to rotate the pivot bushing balls as the suspension goes into bump. The wide pan seems to need more steering. My narrow pan has plenty of steering.
I'll describe another springing system that I have described in posts on this web site that has been used some in formula one and avoids some of the stiction in the front suspension. This stiction is very important in our small touring cars. I find that a slight increase (very slightly bent hinge pin) really reduces cornering traction. It makes the tires bounce over the high spots; it reduces tire compliance.
"The flexure-pivot bearing for the inboard mounting of wishbones is also gaining popularity. Offering zero friction and free play, and lighter and stiffer than a rod-end, they are formed unto the ends of wishbones as a continuous extension of the carbon fibres from which the wishbones are made (steel wishbones have welded-in high tensile steel flexure pivots). Pioneered by John Barnard on the 1994 Ferrari, they offer a small gain in suspension performance, but are an extremely elegant design detail."
In other words the lower arm could actually be fixed but flexible giving most of the suspension spring rate. Thin graphite sheet (blade). An upper A-arm would provide camber control. Then a tiny spring over shock could be added to make it tuneable. The Associated fixed lower arm is a flexure to some extent, but the stiction on this suspension when the kingpin needs to move is huge from the king pins sliding through the plastic bushings and having to rotate the pivot bushing balls as the suspension goes into bump. The wide pan seems to need more steering. My narrow pan has plenty of steering.
10-16-2006, 06:41 PM
#299
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
I'll describe another springing system that I have described in posts on this web site that has been used some in formula one and avoids some of the stiction in the front suspension. This stiction is very important in our small touring cars. I find that a slight increase (very slightly bent hinge pin) really reduces cornering traction. It makes the tires bounce over the high spots; it reduces tire compliance.
"The flexure-pivot bearing for the inboard mounting of wishbones is also gaining popularity. Offering zero friction and free play, and lighter and stiffer than a rod-end, they are formed unto the ends of wishbones as a continuous extension of the carbon fibres from which the wishbones are made (steel wishbones have welded-in high tensile steel flexure pivots). Pioneered by John Barnard on the 1994 Ferrari, they offer a small gain in suspension performance, but are an extremely elegant design detail."
In other words the lower arm could actually be fixed but flexible giving most of the suspension spring rate. Thin graphite sheet (blade). An upper A-arm would provide camber control. Then a tiny spring over shock could be added to make it tuneable. The Associated fixed lower arm is a flexure to some extent, but the stiction on this suspension when the kingpin needs to move is huge from the king pins sliding through the plastic bushings and having to rotate the pivot bushing balls as the suspension goes into bump. The wide pan seems to need more steering. My narrow pan has plenty of steering.
Only problem I could see with a flexure is the longevity and consistancy of the part, we have trouble with t-bars going soft and or tweaking on the rear and I imagine the same would be true using flexures for the front suspension.
10-16-2006, 07:45 PM
#300
heck it might change radically as the sun comes up and down from heat in some parts of some countries...personally i'd rather tune with springs than replaing arms and blades.. has to be more consistent, right? the little associated shocks aren't perfect, but they are good, light, readily available, and cheap...