IFMAR AGM in Collegno - Future of ISTC
07-14-2006, 02:07 PM
#376
the differnce between onroad and offroad, is that in offroad you can easily exceed the mechanical capabilites of the car meaning you can only go so fast due to limited traction so you can easily over power the car.. that is why i suggested limiting the mechanical traction of the onroad cars via making 32 or 36 tires the new standard... they would force drivers to be easier on the car and last longer to boot..
07-14-2006, 02:10 PM
#377
Tech Regular
ohh and use stand up instead of laydown brushes you dont need that much brush wrap it would make the motors run cooler.
07-14-2006, 02:34 PM
#378
I like to point out how respectful everyone has been, attitudes have been great.
Nice to see people sharing their view points and have a debate without drama.
Another note you all have some good ideas.
Josh i am not talking about locked timing. Perfect example is put a notch in the can that is longer then whats designed for stock and 19t so you still can adust the timing but are limited. Plus if they swap out arms it dont matter, your still limited. As far as cranking the motors so what design then to fall apart if tamperd with. Sure there are chances that a none locked arm can get in but I am sure someone will notice and protest.
Also why wouldnt restricting number of winds work? F1 and cart as do numerous
racing organizations regulate displacement per class!
There shouldnt be a problem with designing motors for this, even if we go four cell they are still going to design motors to run on 4 cells.
Also understand I am not against four cell I do run it in 12scale and oval, I just enjoy the rip when I pull the trigger!
Plus why do I want to be slower then nitro! Electric racers dont want to loose the argument!
Seriously alot of racers would leave electric if the cars slow down!
Nice to see people sharing their view points and have a debate without drama.
Another note you all have some good ideas.
Josh i am not talking about locked timing. Perfect example is put a notch in the can that is longer then whats designed for stock and 19t so you still can adust the timing but are limited. Plus if they swap out arms it dont matter, your still limited. As far as cranking the motors so what design then to fall apart if tamperd with. Sure there are chances that a none locked arm can get in but I am sure someone will notice and protest.
Also why wouldnt restricting number of winds work? F1 and cart as do numerous
racing organizations regulate displacement per class!
There shouldnt be a problem with designing motors for this, even if we go four cell they are still going to design motors to run on 4 cells.
Also understand I am not against four cell I do run it in 12scale and oval, I just enjoy the rip when I pull the trigger!
Plus why do I want to be slower then nitro! Electric racers dont want to loose the argument!
Seriously alot of racers would leave electric if the cars slow down!
Last edited by speedxl; 07-14-2006 at 02:53 PM.
07-14-2006, 02:37 PM
#379
Originally Posted by tallyrc
the differnce between onroad and offroad, is that in offroad you can easily exceed the mechanical capabilites of the car meaning you can only go so fast due to limited traction so you can easily over power the car.. that is why i suggested limiting the mechanical traction of the onroad cars via making 32 or 36 tires the new standard... they would force drivers to be easier on the car and last longer to boot..
07-14-2006, 02:37 PM
#380
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Yeah we agree.
I just want to make sure that thorough testing is done before any changes are made. My impression at the meeting was that "we need to change to 4-cells, then figure it out as we go" rather than doing extensive testing first to be sure that 4-cells is the correct decision.
There will possibly be some very serious consequences of a change at the hobby shop level. Sport packs are 6-cells. They need to be as the cheap cells to not provide a lot of power. An IB4200 4-cell pack will probably run faster than a $20.00 sport pack. A 4 cell cheap pack will be totally inadequate. And what about off-road? We know people can be fast with fewer than 6-cells, but must fewer be mandated? Can they run 4-cell too?
With different rules for the two major electric classes, and separate specs for entry level batteries, hobby shops will have to stock more items. They can barely stock the right stuff now. Crossover participation will also be more difficult and costly.
From the business end of things, I truly belive the health of the r/c racing hobby lies in the 6-cell standard. I also think slowing electric cars down will make nitro more appealing (to newcomers) than ever.
I just want to make sure that thorough testing is done before any changes are made. My impression at the meeting was that "we need to change to 4-cells, then figure it out as we go" rather than doing extensive testing first to be sure that 4-cells is the correct decision.
There will possibly be some very serious consequences of a change at the hobby shop level. Sport packs are 6-cells. They need to be as the cheap cells to not provide a lot of power. An IB4200 4-cell pack will probably run faster than a $20.00 sport pack. A 4 cell cheap pack will be totally inadequate. And what about off-road? We know people can be fast with fewer than 6-cells, but must fewer be mandated? Can they run 4-cell too?
With different rules for the two major electric classes, and separate specs for entry level batteries, hobby shops will have to stock more items. They can barely stock the right stuff now. Crossover participation will also be more difficult and costly.
From the business end of things, I truly belive the health of the r/c racing hobby lies in the 6-cell standard. I also think slowing electric cars down will make nitro more appealing (to newcomers) than ever.
Not everyone is a hardcore racer and whatever decision comes out of this will affect the entire hobby....
If you knock the cars down to 4 cell the next generation of TC's will be of no use to anyone but those who race... Do you think a newbie is going to pick up a 4 cell EP car with a stock motor to have it beaten by his buddies tyco car that cost 39.95???
I use my 6 cell race packs in more than just my TC's. My 4 cell packs are useless for anything else but my 12th scale. I have more 6 cell packs....
07-14-2006, 02:42 PM
#381
Originally Posted by AdrianM
FYI, This thread was started to report the fact that all motor builders said something needs to be done at the IFMAR AGM meeting last week.
But did the ESC manufacturers also say something needs to be done??
Originally Posted by Advil
FWIW I agree with Russ, MOST of us are not having these problems. Why should we HAVE to change to make the 40 or so at the Worlds happy?
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
I think everyone needs to take some responsibility. Drivers have to shoulder some of it as do manufacturers. How many brushed speedos and motors come with fans installed with proper air flow? Almost every pro drivers uses them, but none come with them. Why?
07-14-2006, 02:57 PM
#382
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
How would you enforce a tire compound rule?
07-14-2006, 02:59 PM
#383
Originally Posted by speedxl
Also why wouldnt restricting number of winds work?
07-14-2006, 03:13 PM
#384
Originally Posted by AdrianM
We tried this already. ROAR used 10T and the BRCA and EFRA ran 12T. We just ran more timing, more gear and went just as fast as we did with 8 turns. When we switched back to open motors we found thay lasted longer as we were running less timing. That was until 1.22V and 1.6IR batts became common.
Adrian your right 10t or 12t didnt work because timing was twisted to the point the motors would blow! So if you limit the amount of range you can advance to, you will just created a way to keep amperage down and no blow ups! sorta a rev limiter!
07-14-2006, 03:20 PM
#385
Terry - There are industry leaders and industry followers. The leaders were at the AGM.
...And yes...speedo manufacturers were there (Novak, LRP, GM). Reto has posted on this thread a few times alrewady. I can't speak for them as to wether they like the ideal of 4 cells or not but they were very much interested in finding a solution to our heat issues.
As far as speedo cooling and some not needing fans
. If you plat Russian roullette do you get shot every time...no. Sometimes you have no problems...sometimes you do. I have seen every brand of speedo shut down at one time or another.
Please understand that as a UK racer you are only seeing high temps on your tracks for 1-2 months out of the year tops. Those of us in the Med, South America, Southern US, South of Spain and Italy are in the heat 8 months out of the year.
...And yes...speedo manufacturers were there (Novak, LRP, GM). Reto has posted on this thread a few times alrewady. I can't speak for them as to wether they like the ideal of 4 cells or not but they were very much interested in finding a solution to our heat issues.
As far as speedo cooling and some not needing fans
. If you plat Russian roullette do you get shot every time...no. Sometimes you have no problems...sometimes you do. I have seen every brand of speedo shut down at one time or another.Please understand that as a UK racer you are only seeing high temps on your tracks for 1-2 months out of the year tops. Those of us in the Med, South America, Southern US, South of Spain and Italy are in the heat 8 months out of the year.
07-14-2006, 03:21 PM
#386
Originally Posted by AdrianM
We tried this already. ROAR used 10T and the BRCA and EFRA ran 12T. We just ran more timing, more gear and went just as fast as we did with 8 turns. When we switched back to open motors we found thay lasted longer as we were running less timing. That was until 1.22V and 1.6IR batts became common.
EA
This was just a joke of course!!
07-14-2006, 03:22 PM
#387
I have a couple questions.
First, people have suggested that racers should rely more on throttle control(or reduce the epa on your speed controller), but isn't the speed controller operating at max efficiantly when at full throttle(creating the least amount of heat)? If you restrict it, wont the speed controllers get even hotter than before?
Second, in a 4 cell 4200mah battery, you can pull (for example only) 40 amps for 330 seconds, that is an average of 40 amps x 4.8 volts = 192 watts correct? But in a 6 cell battery, you can only pull the same 40 amps for 330 seconds, that is an average of 40 amps x 7.2 volts = 288 watts correct. So from the given reduction of voltage to the motor, shouldn't the motor run cooler due to less watts running through them over the duration of the race, and not hotter?
I mean in order to produce the same watts from a 4 cell as a 6 cell can produce, you would have to pull on average of 60 amps for 330 seconds out of a 4 cell battery to equal the watts of a 6 cell and I can not see anyone being able to do that without dumping or hurting the performance of the motor throughout the entire RPM curve of the motor from gearing and becoming slow from it.
This is just something that I have questions about concerning the different view points from this thread.
First, people have suggested that racers should rely more on throttle control(or reduce the epa on your speed controller), but isn't the speed controller operating at max efficiantly when at full throttle(creating the least amount of heat)? If you restrict it, wont the speed controllers get even hotter than before?
Second, in a 4 cell 4200mah battery, you can pull (for example only) 40 amps for 330 seconds, that is an average of 40 amps x 4.8 volts = 192 watts correct? But in a 6 cell battery, you can only pull the same 40 amps for 330 seconds, that is an average of 40 amps x 7.2 volts = 288 watts correct. So from the given reduction of voltage to the motor, shouldn't the motor run cooler due to less watts running through them over the duration of the race, and not hotter?
I mean in order to produce the same watts from a 4 cell as a 6 cell can produce, you would have to pull on average of 60 amps for 330 seconds out of a 4 cell battery to equal the watts of a 6 cell and I can not see anyone being able to do that without dumping or hurting the performance of the motor throughout the entire RPM curve of the motor from gearing and becoming slow from it.
This is just something that I have questions about concerning the different view points from this thread.
07-14-2006, 03:27 PM
#388
Originally Posted by speedxl
Adrian your right 10t or 12t didnt work because timing was twisted to the point the motors would blow! So if you limit the amount of range you can advance to, you will just created a way to keep amperage down and no blow ups! sorta a rev limiter!
Your suggestion is along the lines of reduce the amps (by limiting winds and timing) to save the motors. You say you want to keep your rip but if you cut timing and increase winds enough to reduce motor heat you will be down to the same wattage output levels as with 4 cell and the performance will be the same. No matter what we will lose some rip. The good think is that we have too much rip and can give some up without reducing the excitement of racing at all.
27T will be a novice class. 19t will be a little faster than stock is now. Mod will be faster than 19T and more drivers will be able to participate in Mod since the learning curve will not be as steep.
07-14-2006, 03:34 PM
#389
Tech Master
iTrader: (19)
Originally Posted by AdrianM
This requires more rules, more tech at races and can open the door to more cheating.
Your suggestion is along the lines of reduce the amps (by limiting winds and timing) to save the motors. You say you want to keep your rip but if you cut timing and increase winds enough to reduce motor heat you will be down to the same wattage output levels as with 4 cell and the performance will be the same. No matter what we will lose some rip. The good think is that we have too much rip and can give some up without reducing the excitement of racing at all.
27T will be a novice class. 19t will be a little faster than stock is now. Mod will be faster than 19T and more drivers will be able to participate in Mod since the learning curve will not be as steep.
Your suggestion is along the lines of reduce the amps (by limiting winds and timing) to save the motors. You say you want to keep your rip but if you cut timing and increase winds enough to reduce motor heat you will be down to the same wattage output levels as with 4 cell and the performance will be the same. No matter what we will lose some rip. The good think is that we have too much rip and can give some up without reducing the excitement of racing at all.
27T will be a novice class. 19t will be a little faster than stock is now. Mod will be faster than 19T and more drivers will be able to participate in Mod since the learning curve will not be as steep.
07-14-2006, 03:46 PM
#390
The newer batteries are not the problem and neither are the speed controls.
One important point here is efficiency, which magnet DC motors are not too good at.
The equipment is failing because it's being pushed beyond it's limits. The motors are demanding a lot of current, which the batteries happen to be able to supply. A big portion of this energy being wasted by the motor, again, efficiency. It's not the batteries fault, it only supplies what the motor asks of it to cope with the load it carries. The load is just too much for either the motor or speedo, so one of them goes poof! Speaking of load brings us also to weight, which TC have a lot of IMO.
Brushless motors are much more efficient, but are being overloaded and the speedo overheats. With these motors, the stress carried by the comm and brushes in brushed motors is now carried by the speed control. And we all know pretty these come out after a run.
Not to mention this brushless high load scenario doesn't have too much time under it's belt.
Brushed motors need to be more efficient, by a lot. This is easier said than done when you have to keep cost in mind.
Compared to brushed systems, Brushless systems...well they are only in diapers, they just need more time to develop.
One important point here is efficiency, which magnet DC motors are not too good at.
The equipment is failing because it's being pushed beyond it's limits. The motors are demanding a lot of current, which the batteries happen to be able to supply. A big portion of this energy being wasted by the motor, again, efficiency. It's not the batteries fault, it only supplies what the motor asks of it to cope with the load it carries. The load is just too much for either the motor or speedo, so one of them goes poof! Speaking of load brings us also to weight, which TC have a lot of IMO.
Brushless motors are much more efficient, but are being overloaded and the speedo overheats. With these motors, the stress carried by the comm and brushes in brushed motors is now carried by the speed control. And we all know pretty these come out after a run.
Not to mention this brushless high load scenario doesn't have too much time under it's belt.
Brushed motors need to be more efficient, by a lot. This is easier said than done when you have to keep cost in mind.
Compared to brushed systems, Brushless systems...well they are only in diapers, they just need more time to develop.