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Old 06-08-2006, 09:53 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by billjacobs
All of these reasons come down to time, competition, and money, your time and your or someone else's money.
Doesn't everything?

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If you want to draw more people, I would do the following:
1) have a true spec class and encourage it:
This is the one I feel the most passionately about. Call it SPEC, call it stock, call it what you will but yes yes yes! We might differ a little on details, but the basic point is if you can modify the hell out of the car, open motors, or muck with batteries, it's ain't "stock" and it sure ain't "specified"...

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2) designate a racer to help the newbie's each week.
Dude, if you need to do this though, there's something wrong at the track, for real. Every place I've been to, the old guys are bigtime into helping out the newbies whenever possible. Only one place I've ever been were the good old boys spiteful towards newcomers, throwing towels over their cars if you got close and giving snippy "figure it out yourself" responses like they worked in IT tech support or something. Easy to guess, my friends and I never went back there!
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Old 06-08-2006, 09:57 AM   #107
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Radio control toys is a big chunk of the toy biz. It wont die out as new generations are introduced to the hobby. Its just like video games. We outgrow them but new kids get into them.

As for racing, in my country a typical person earns around $10 to $20 a day. With the cost of equipment, car kit, battery, that would probably total one months pay. That's just to start, there's the cost of maintaining tires, batts, parts for racing.
Racing fee is equally expensive. Its around $10 per race day. So if you are an employee you just lost more than half a days pay.
Someone mentioned $20 race fee to be expensive, my brother in the US earns $25 an hour. I think the ratio is not as steep compared to my country.
So in my country only the one's with deep pockets get to race regularly and be competitive OR the really geeky, fat ass guys with nothing to spend their money elsewhere(no wife, no social life, nothing).
Even with a spec class for the tt01 here there's less than 5 people joining the race and half of them are veterans. Its not so enticing for the newbies I know to race against veterans when a lot of money will be spent.
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Old 06-08-2006, 10:01 AM   #108
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i left for over 12 months mainly because of the time spent at the track on race day, no other reason.Arrive at 8.30 and leave at 3.30 pm, thats one long day.
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Old 06-08-2006, 10:20 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by khyron
Doesn't everything?
Dude, if you need to do this though, there's something wrong at the track, for real. Every place I've been to, the old guys are bigtime into helping out the newbies whenever possible. Only one place I've ever been were the good old boys spiteful towards newcomers, throwing towels over their cars if you got close and giving snippy "figure it out yourself" responses like they worked in IT tech support or something. Easy to guess, my friends and I never went back there!
In our case it is not the racers that are the problem, it is the track owners... What we really need to do in my area and form a club, which has one very big voice to the owners. Currently the owners are running the show and the show is not a good one... Racers in my area are very helpful. But when you show up to run on Sunday the owner forgot to bring the track out, and is on his jet ski, after the flyer with the schedule has been out for 3 weeks, this will piss you off. Or you get 8 people for TC, and half are novice and the other half are "the fast guys", you go the track owner, and ask to split them up, a stock class and 19T class, but they reply, ok, but what if one or two drop out, then you do have the 3 min requirement for my track... (and no these are two different tracks….)

So if you have a good track owner, please give them a hug... you could be in an area that is not so...... inviting....
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Old 06-08-2006, 10:20 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by firestang
i left for over 12 months mainly because of the time spent at the track on race day, no other reason.Arrive at 8.30 and leave at 3.30 pm, thats one long day.
firestang.. thats a short day. i try to help out at my local parking lot track. i usually arrive (last because i cant wake up) at around 630am.. help blow off the parking lot. think of a good layout that stock, 19T and mod will like and make for great racing. race two classes (if i remembered to prep my cars and have enough tires).... then try to help tear down.

630am... to 6pm. oh yah. i usually dont sleep the night before (or 2-3 hours because i was trying to do car prep) because im too excited to race.

something to help the hobby..a CLUB. a large group of guys (10-20) people to help out. TAOB Racing used to be like that.. but people moved on (house payments, kids... marriage, etc).
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Old 06-08-2006, 10:31 AM   #111
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I just got back into the sport, after a good 10ish year hiatus. When I quit I was racing 10th scale carpet oval and 1200->1400SCR switch was just about to happen. To go top of the line (10LSS, HI-IQ, Matched 1200s Cells, Motors, Lots of hop-ups, Tools, etc) you could spend $2k. I was on my way to college, and needed my money for that. So I sold my stuff and left.

Now I'm getting back in. Things have changed, I think for the better. We've gone from oval rockets to sedan twisties. Stock motors are far less disposable. The difference between a crappy battery and a superb one is much smaller with the 3300s and 3800s because you've got so much runtime you can vary your rollout widely. This game is far more skill dependent now than money dependant.

I find the cost obtain top of the line gear is pretty much the same, about $2k. However, thats $2k in 2006 dollars, which is far cheaper than $2k in 1998 dollars! I was in high school and managed (over time!) to come up with most of the actually useful high end gear. Not to mention, with ebay and the internet, you've got a far wider selection of quality used gear to choose from!

The biggest hit for me, in this area (Boston, MA) is travel time.

This is not a high profit hobby for the business owners. Real estate is hella expensive here. That means that all the tracks are way outside the city in the boonies. Include traffic, a reasonable race start time (7PM) and its difficult to make it TO the track in time for the first heat, let alone get everything set up.

I'm lucky that I have a well paid job and the flexibility to slip out a little early once a week. I can easily see other people without these 2 benefits having basically no chance to get into it.

I can also how this has driven interest in offroad so high. With offroad, if you want to tool around in the back yard, you can. Far easier to make a mini-track in your backyard and roll an old RC10T out there than it is to build a carpet track in your rec room! [Unless you have a REALLY big rec room!] I can see why interest in the mini cars is rising.
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Old 06-08-2006, 10:33 AM   #112
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Reading this whole thread, I noticed how quickly "we" continue to put the blame and responsibilties on the "other guy" and we have offered up our suggestions how to improve it, or say "oh well, people coming and going is a trend", not one individual has taken responsibility for themselves, even the newbie.

Its my attitude toward this hobby or any other endeavor ... period ... IF my investment, in money, time and ego is not rewarded according to my selfish needs I won't do it (whatever it is (unless someone makes me)). i.e.

I like this hobby, so what if I have to spend the $$$ and time to drive 90 miles to the nearest track. So what, that I pay $$$ for entry fees, pit table rental... Total time invested on my part for racing on Sat Nites is about 13 hours. Not counting practice, running 2 heats and a Main, total track time is 15 minutes; unless I run two or more classes.

I understand that I am going to be forking out $$$ to replace broken/worn parts or to buy an overpriced "got to have, help my car go fast gadget".

Sometimes I win, more often than naught, I am usually the first or second looser and even a DNF or two!

I have 7 complete right now ready to race electric cars; for on-road, off-road, and ovals, plus support equipment and extras I think necessary. I didn't lay out all the $$$ at once to purchase this stuff. When I look back on what I have spent, my knees get weak, light headed etc.

Somehow my investment, in money, time and ego is rewarding my selfish needs.

With all the stuff I have laid out here, some hereon share this attitude or they wouldn't still (or coming back to) be playing with toy cars. Take my opinion for what its worth and lets help the newbie get started. See you next Saturday Night!
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Old 06-08-2006, 10:44 AM   #113
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Racing entry fees are going to have to go up for club racing. Some land lords are charging hobby shops up to $1000 per event for the use of the parking lot. Then you have the cost of a computer, scoring software, house transponders, a guy to run the races, pipes, a driverstand, an event rider on your liability insurance, etc. It not cheap to put on a club race.

Permanent tracks are even bigger money.
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:08 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Racing entry fees are going to have to go up for club racing. Some land lords are charging hobby shops up to $1000 per event for the use of the parking lot. Then you have the cost of a computer, scoring software, house transponders, a guy to run the races, pipes, a driverstand, an event rider on your liability insurance, etc. It not cheap to put on a club race.

Permanent tracks are even bigger money.
I agree 100%. If you get half as mnay racers, but costs have gone up-the dedicated must share the burden if they want to keep there tracks.

I see our local racing dropping and the racers just arent coming in as fast as they are leaving. I do think this is more "on-road and Oval" related. I think offraod (especially tracks that support nitro) are doing just fine and growing.

So throwing around the $$ reason I think has an impact, but lets face it-my Touring car or my CRC doesnt gobble up cash like a $600 Truggy that gets more mega-bling every week or a faster $300 nitro motor in an 1/8th scale buggy.

I for one keep thinking about the time I can spend and the money I can spend back in the real world if I stopped racing RC cars for awhile. So its not the $$$ I spend on RC cars PER SE, but that at 40 years old and a wife and child in love with Disney World and myself sure thinking that two weeks on a sandy beach might be better than a week in a hotel smelling traction compound, RC racing just doesnt have to be the #1 thing in my life!! Did I also mention I have a my 100mph go kart sitting ready to race in the warhouse too? So, wife and child, cool toys non rc related....

Heres my short list of why people quit:

-getting butts kicked week in and week out by onroad gurus.

-too many distractions outside of RC

-wife, kids, life changes

-off road racing has more appeal (more fun to jump triples then hit boards and chunk tires).

-and of course cost of entry into this great hobby!!
It adds up fast, but if you love racing-then its worth it.
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:15 AM   #115
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what I don't understand and this is from a track owner and hobby shop is that I hear we want this and we want that also we hear this needs to be better but what I don't get is when we the track owner do what you want you don't show up.

we have a Permanent track and its open for FREE during business hours and most of the time its prep and ready to go. and just like Adrian said it cost money to keep the track up and get it ready. I am just glad that I have racers who help out with everything around the shop.

I like the idea for novice people to run stock motors,maybe 3000 batteries and spec tires but the problem with that is the rtr kits come with 15 turns and some cheap tire. so when someone comes in they see 245 for the kit then they have to buy motor,batteries,and different tires now there over 300 bucks and most will just walk away.

I think the rtr kits should come with stock motors and race tires and should come in around the 200 dollar price and then you will have more people wanting to race and if they don't like it there really not into for alot of money.

also the other thing that hurts the hobby is there so little mark up for the hobby shop so the margin is so small and if you don't sell enough your going to have to shut the doors .

also you got companys out there that help out non-sponser drivers all of the time so why do they need to come to the shop and buy something from us when they can go to that company and get it for the same cost of want I pay for it. Don't get me wrong some companys will help you out when your at a race which is ok but the ones I am talking about will do it all of the time. and that doesn't help out hobby shops at all.

the other thing is you have to have FUN if you can't have fun doing something you like why would you do it.The difference between on road guys and Oval guys that race with us there is way more relaxed with the oval guys than the on road guys.

thats my .02$
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:29 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by rayhuang
-off road racing has more appeal (more fun to jump triples then hit boards and chunk tires).
because you don't just drive an off-road car, you fly it.
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:30 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Racing entry fees are going to have to go up for club racing. Some land lords are charging hobby shops up to $1000 per event for the use of the parking lot. Then you have the cost of a computer, scoring software, house transponders, a guy to run the races, pipes, a driverstand, an event rider on your liability insurance, etc. It not cheap to put on a club race.

Permanent tracks are even bigger money.
Or just make the walls less forgiving and make it up on parts
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Old 06-08-2006, 12:58 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by khyron
I'll jump out there and say something that will probably get me flamed, but FWIW these are really my feelings and I'm not trolling...

What this hobby needs more than anything is for more clubs to put the "stock" back in "stock" racing. Why oh why did we ever open up that endbell? That was like pandora's box man. Today, if you're going by ROAR rules, stock is basically just modified with a couple armature rules! There's nothing "stock" about it, it's about as "stock" as NASCAR.

Some tracks offer "SPEC" classes which is a help. However in most cases you can still open the motor or use bizarre, expensive, destructive procedures to wrest more voltage out of what are supposed to be equal batteries. For me personally, it's when I see people break out the lathes and the hundreds-of-dollars zapping and cycling equipment, that's when I lose all interest in racing. Brushless is an awesome low maintenance option, but costs as much as brushed plus lathing equipment and plenty of places still won't even let you race.

There was a time when a stock motor was $20 or less and you weren't allowed to open it. You oiled the bushings (no bearings allowed) and you stuck comm sticks into the brush hoods and that was it dude, spray it out and get back on the track.

I think it would really benefit the hobby if more clubs started offering some truly "stock" classes. I've read of tracks in other places (makes me jealous) running "all the same kit" classes with sealed generic motors and stock tires and man it just makes me drool.

There's nothing wrong with balls-to-the-wall open modified, it's fun as hell to watch and it's enjoyable as hell to do if you have the money and time and obsession, more power to you. But there need to be classes for people who want to do other things with their life and/or have a more average income.

Modified with a weaker motor isn't stock, it's just slow modified, IMHO.

Okay, flame on I guess...
this is an excellent comment. i, too, would love to see a truly spec class. what i've seen over the years however, is when you use a sealed motor or the like, people just keep buying multiple motors until they find a great one. this type of 'spec' racing actually costs more. i've seen it happen.

the ironic thing is, with the rebuildable stock motors, you can re-cut the comm, install new brushes,etc which allows you to restore the motor to top performance as opposed to wearing the comm out and then going out to buy a brand new motor to keep up with everyone else who is doing that. i won't even get into the people who twist the stack to advance the timing. then you have to tech that?? compulsory tech for club races is not always practical.

spec racing is tricky to keep truly "spec", and its presents a not-so-black-and-white situation. yes a lathe is expensive, but back before the paradox came out, how many trinity midnights did racers have? people at my track had at least two or three, and then they were buying the special lathe that could fit through the brush hood to cut the comm. so then you had a lathe for stock and one for mod... how is that keeping the cost down?

i don't have a brilliant idea, but i think that to keep everything truly "spec" will require some honesty and participation from the racers to keep things even. if anyone has a better solution, i'm all ears!!!
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Old 06-08-2006, 01:10 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by khyron
I'll jump out there and say something that will probably get me flamed, but FWIW these are really my feelings and I'm not trolling...

What this hobby needs more than anything is for more clubs to put the "stock" back in "stock" racing. Why oh why did we ever open up that endbell? That was like pandora's box man. Today, if you're going by ROAR rules, stock is basically just modified with a couple armature rules! There's nothing "stock" about it, it's about as "stock" as NASCAR.

Some tracks offer "SPEC" classes which is a help. However in most cases you can still open the motor or use bizarre, expensive, destructive procedures to wrest more voltage out of what are supposed to be equal batteries. For me personally, it's when I see people break out the lathes and the hundreds-of-dollars zapping and cycling equipment, that's when I lose all interest in racing. Brushless is an awesome low maintenance option, but costs as much as brushed plus lathing equipment and plenty of places still won't even let you race.

There was a time when a stock motor was $20 or less and you weren't allowed to open it. You oiled the bushings (no bearings allowed) and you stuck comm sticks into the brush hoods and that was it dude, spray it out and get back on the track.

I think it would really benefit the hobby if more clubs started offering some truly "stock" classes. I've read of tracks in other places (makes me jealous) running "all the same kit" classes with sealed generic motors and stock tires and man it just makes me drool.

There's nothing wrong with balls-to-the-wall open modified, it's fun as hell to watch and it's enjoyable as hell to do if you have the money and time and obsession, more power to you. But there need to be classes for people who want to do other things with their life and/or have a more average income.

Modified with a weaker motor isn't stock, it's just slow modified, IMHO.

Okay, flame on I guess...
See, that isn't really true. While some people did choose to clean the motors old style (I remember the brown/yellow pairs that slide into the brush holes while you spun the comm with a big pinion!) that didnt' keep the cost down.

What that did was get the people with $ to buy a whole box of motors, dyno them all, and only run the best ones.

And it sure didn't stop people from opening the cans. People were doing that anyway. Now, the surface is levelled. Trueing an armature does not give any noticable advantage until it has taken some wear. And by then, in the 'old'
stock rules, you would have just tossed the motor out and bought a new one. Now, you open the endbell, true the armature, and toss it back in the car. This is one of the low cost changes to the sport, not one that makes it more expensive. You can pick up a used lathe with diamond bit for $75-125 by a good manufacturer. With that small investment you extend the life of your 'stock' motors significantly.
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Old 06-08-2006, 01:31 PM   #120
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If you really want to make this sport less expensive, you need to focus less on controlling equipment and more on controlling COST. SPEC was an attempt to control costs by restricting equipment types. As you can see, it didn't quite do the job. You still have people buying a case of motors or a case of batteries and keeping only the best. Only now they're buying different kinds.

The problem is (some) people find a way around most anything to give themselves a competitive edge. That will always be the case.

If you want to make this a TRULY cost controlled sport, you have to find a way to change it such that limitless money provides rapidly diminishing performance returns.

Changing from oval to on-road was good. It put more emphasis on driving skill, and less on maxed out electronics.

Technology advances like 3800s and 4200s mean we're running races with plenty of amps to spare and took emphasis off finding the highest capacity cells.

Rules changes like open endbells in stock mean we can worry less about disposable motors. When you find a good one you can run it a long time!
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