RC10Nick

iTrader: (9)

I did. When I bought my dex210 back in 2012 I bought it specifically because I could try mid motor. I ran a week or two in rear motor, switched to mid motor, and was instantly faster. Not a huge margin faster, but it did show up in the lap times.

I think over time rear motor will just fade away completely. I've ran mid motor on many different tracks and never felt like I was at a disadvantage (and that was even running a 3 gear transmission on a blown out 1/8 scale track).

ray_munday

iTrader: (4)

RM is easier to accelerate in a straight line, especially in lower traction and / or with worn tyres. You need better throttle control with a MM car. But if you are pushing the car harder in corners, MM tends to be easier to drive.

It also has a lot to do with track layout. If your layout has lots of hairpins and point & shoot sections, or jumps close to the exit of a tight corner, RM is still fast and is easy to accelerate. If your track has a lot of sweeping corners, MM will feel smoother to drive.

You will notice a difference in driving style, but I dont think its big enough to need to 'relearn' how to drive.

Ray

Wanderer77

iTrader: (2)

For me...RM is definitely not dead. My general feelings are this...

On groomed, smooth, high-grip tracks the mid-motor setup is very difficult to beat. However as the traction goes away, most mid-motor setups need weight added to the rear to help with traction. At some point you add too much weight and the vehicle drives like a fat pig. Rear-motor is where it's at here.

For me, overall, it's easier to drive rear motor at race pace in a wider variety of conditions. MM seemed much more sensitive to small changes in conditions. I'm a weekend club racer, with a life and family...I don't have the time to be converting my car back and forth constantly and/or spending tons of time at the track during the week to test. I liked my mid-motor setups, but I won't be going back.

Again, for me it's about consistency and ability to drive the same car/setup in a wider variety of track conditions and be competitive.

-W

fredswain

iTrader: (1)

I actually find this discussion quite amusing. It was 3 or so years ago that people here were arguing over whether or not mid motor was a viable setup. I remember one particular person, who shall remain nameless but is in this thread btw, asked "If mid motor is so good, why aren't the pro's running it?" and then a year and a half later stating, "If rear motor is so good, why aren't the pro's using it anymore?". I remember people insulting X Factory back then saying that mid motor was tried in the 90's and didn't work so they were dumb for doing it and then some of the same people later taking shots at X Factory saying they didn't really do anything special in regards to 4 gear, which everyone later copied and have yet again reverted back to the 3 gear setup first tried in the late 80's and early 90's. This much is humorous. Many people will follow the herd.

The big question about whether or not rear motor is gone for good or still has a place is really centered on track design. More specifically, track surface. Why didn't mid motor work that well 25 years ago? The simple answer is that the tracks were soft and loamy. Mid motor didn't place enough weight over the drive wheels to get good forward traction. No one really understood why it didn't work at the time. They just understood that is wasn't as good. X Factory believed in the idea of mid motor and found an interim solution of using the motor to artificially shift weight onto the rear of the car through a 4 gear system. It's not a setup that I personally like to drive but it did start a trend. Many tracks were still lower grip at the time. Schumacher was first to copy them after an X Factory driver left for Schumacher. It took awhile, but the others started to come on board once the 22 came out and reinvigorated 2wd. Durango followed, then the rest over a couple of years.

As tracks got to be higher and higher in grip, more people switched over to mid motor due to the amount of corner speed capability. Durango was the first to go back to the 3 gear option for mid motor but only because their gearbox was so versatile in setup. People thought they were stupid for it. Once Associated came out with a 3 gear, everyone and their dog believed that it could work. Some people just need to be told what to do and what to believe.

As long as tracks maintain high grip, mid motor will probably be the way to go. Whether it's 3 or 4 gear will probably remain a debate. If tracks ever go back to low grip, rear motor will become more relevant again, especially in lower power classes. I know some will say that mid motor will always displace rear moving forward even on low grip. What's interesting is that in dirt oval, on looser tracks, rear motor is still dominant over mid. Remember, those guys do nothing but turn. If rear motor couldn't turn well, they wouldn't be using it. That's a different topic but something to think about.

carcrazy699

iTrader: (49)

Very good explanation. I remember the same thing when people were talking down on the MM cars. I think it's once A.E comes out with it a lot of people think since they came out with it that it must be best then. Not hating on them at all I have B5M lite and love it just seems if the big companies don't come out with it and only the smaller ones do then its no good but once it's reversed it's the way to go.

Mudcat981

iTrader: (4)

To answer your question. What kind of track do you race on? Outdoor stay with RM, Indoor switch to MM.

I have been racing since the 80s, (tried MM then and it didnt work because of track conditions). I now race on a well groomed indoor track and was a die hard RM racer, but decided to switch (April 2015) because I wasnt staying with the leaders or even mid pack. After switching to MM i was instantly 1 lap faster and after a couple of runs to get aquainted with MM I am now 2 full laps faster than with RM. Finally grabbed a couple of 3rd places.

But when I go to the Reedy Outdoor Champs in November, it will be an outdoor and a wet track. I have to decide if adding rear weight will work or should I switch back to RM.

So again it depends on track type to determine which is better. There are people who are still competitive with RM on indoor tracks but they have been racing a long time and probably could win with a Tamiya Grasshopper.

carcrazy699

iTrader: (49)

I agree that RM works better for outdoor. I run outdoor and have a MM and it is a whole different beast than what I am used to. I was almost thinking of getting a B5 RM for outdoor but thought if I can wheel the MM around the track really good outdoors then I should be even better indoor

JatoTheRipper

iTrader: (11)

Never. It will always have its place.

I believe everything is cyclical so it will be back, especially if the current "off-road" tracks become real off-road tracks again.

Fast Little Car

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I certainly do not agree with that assessment at all.

In my opinion, the MM's ability to accelerate in a straight line is a major plus over the RM platform.

the incubus

iTrader: (17)

What I've seen throughout this development is that MM was a means to an end for manufacturers trying to sell more/new product and the only reason they didn't take the initiative to start the movement was because of the risks involved in doing so. Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to design, engineer and manufacture something that might end up being an astronomical flop is a huge risk the bigger companies shy away from because their business model has worked well enough for them that continuing on with the same trend means the steady stream of revenue is virtually safe.

However, once the smaller guys ventured out and made it work about as well as the RM stuff, they waited to see if it was just an overnight "Here Today, Gone Tomorrow" fad or if it would catch on enough for them to invest the time and money to develop their own.

Once that decision was reached, they began strategically supply their "Factory" Drivers with MM Kits and it is THEN these once mocked concepts go from being such to being all the rage and must haves for competitive hobbyists. And while there are some advantages to each configuration, the Rig Kits (ones with the swappable vertical transmissions), while offering some advantages in certain conditions were not purposely engineered for the task and do not offer enough of an improvement in any one way that it would be a night and day difference to RM.

Having said that, well engineered MM designs like the YZ-2 aren't perfect either, but then again, neither is any other kit. However, these types of kits move the weight forward but not so much so that it removes the weight over the rear axles but it is the attention paid to lowering the Center of Gravity which is one of the most important goals when designing racing machines. This would also make RM cars better in most, if not all scenarios.

It's been my experience that a well set up car will perform well on any type of track and the driver is the limiting factor. Any top pro would do just as well today running RM. I'd just like to see them driving dirt cars on of all things… Dirt.

Dave H

After many years of being fortunate to watch some of the X-Factory family on a wide variety of tracks what surprises me a bit is the mid motor success on medium grip tracks. On some of the loose, rough and loamy 'real' dirt tracks that I suspect most vintage fans would approve of, I always thought they looked great, seemed to be less of a handful and easier to keep pointed. Seemed to be less difference on mid traction tracks.

Sure has changed from way back when others were trying it, when it never seemed to work, even on similar if not same dirt. Tire evolution is probably a big variable, more overall grip, but seems that would be largely offset by the increased power on tap now?

fredswain

iTrader: (1)

I started out with a XXX that had an Atomic Carbon CR2 mid motor conversion. First it had a 3 gear with an external idler and later a true 4 gear. Next I had an X6^2. Against Chaz's advice I tried the original X6, 3 gear and then later put the standard 4 gear on it. After those cars, I bought a DEX-210. A convertible car if you will. I absolutely, positively 100% disagree with the notion that it is somehow disadvantaged due to "not being engineered for the task". It is a very capable mid motor car. The biggest problem that people have with it and the 22 is that when they change from rear motor to mid motor, they don't change anything else in setup. That's a huge mistake and a very large reason why people didn't like switching them around. If your suspension is properly tuned for balance, you'll do it around the car's ready to run orientation. That means that it is necessary to retune entirely when you swap from mid motor to rear motor. Others may disagree but that's their choice. I've kept this car far longer than my other 2 mid motor cars. Yes, there were a couple of flaws with the 210 but the fact that it was both mid or rear motor capable was not one of them. That's it's best feature. I've had it setup in 3 gear mid motor for around 2 years now btw, far longer than most people who have only just gotten into 3 gear with the availability of the 3 gear for the B5M. No one believed in it before that.

ray_munday

iTrader: (4)

It all depends on which part of acceleration. From a standing start on a loose track, Ive never seen an MM car put the initial power down better than RM. But if you are exiting a corner and trying to get on power, a rear biased MM car will have less exit oversteer and put the power down straighter.

I think a lot of different experiences on this thread are from the definition of low and high grip. What some consider low, others will consider high. What some consider flowing, others consider tight.

When we first went to MM a few years ago, I was skeptical about the performance in lower grip but was really surprised at the lap times. The B4.2 was an awesome buggy that was optimised to within an inch of its life, and I loved driving it, yet immediately the MM conversion was faster on tracks I wasnt expecting it to work at.

This is a short video from my local track showing the variation in track conditions within a day. We start on flip outs and end up on pins. We often start with brass rear blocks but take them off as the grip comes up. (Please ignore the commentary!!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhT-cRi4m5g

Ray

skeasor

I switched from running MM to RM just this year...Our track has low - med grip at best and it gets even worse in the winter when the temps drop...I went tonight to race but ended up leaving early because I was exhausted from work today but the top 3 guys when I left were running RM cars...the rest were B5M lites with mod motors. I don't think RM is dead. As stated before, it has it's place and any well tuned car has a chance...The top elite drivers could beat me if they were running a cheap toys r us car just because they're that good...well, maybe that's a little far fetched but I'm sure you get the idea.

Davidka

iTrader: (86)

Funny thing in my region, the stable indoor track's grip have all dropped significantly. Up until 2007-8, we had tracks with dirt that had the consistency of modeling clay and we ran slicks and the slipper clutch was used for wheelie control and/or transmission protection. Today the same tracks are solidly "medium traction", yet mid motor has proliferated anyway.