66LikesHot Bodies D413 1/10 4WD Buggy
07-29-2013, 01:09 PM
#1
Most of this information is copied from Torrance Deguzman, HPI/HB Mechanical Engineer, and Ty Tessmann, HPI/HB Professional Driver. Thank you both! I think it is great to have not only company representatives, but the designer and National Champion online to help us get the most out of the kit. I have no affiliation with HPI.
4/12/2015 update - Added Traxxas X-Ring info
Shock Caps
Aluminum HB caps are slowly trickling into the states, still on backorder in most places. They seem to be easily available overseas. West coast dock strikes... Before these were available, there are multiple reports of people having good luck with the plastic caps from the Team Associated B5 #91445 (Standoffs) and #91449 (Composite Caps).
The proper installation is like the 8th scale shocks -
Ty's Aluminum Shock Caps
the PL caps were designed by me but produced by PL as a favor. they were made for the Worlds just for extra insurance. the plastic caps work well but i suppose for heavy crashers it may pose problems. HB will release aluminum caps that work in conjunction with new shock upper mounts. the PL ones that Ty is currently using is made to fit over Kyosho mounts…
| + YouTube Video | |
Quick Links
Ty Tessmann's site with setup sheets
HPI Product Page
Shock Rebuild Tips
Traxxas X-Rings are a good cheap alternative that reduce stiction and are very rugged. They are part of kit TRA2362.
Build Tips From Torrance
Build Tip #1
Ty uses Kyosho x-rings which adds smoothness. During testing after the Cactus the AE guys gave us some of their new x-rings to try. They claim theirs work as well without the Kyo price. Haven't tried them yet though.
I do the poor-man method... I use the stock o-rings but replace the spacer between them with a 1.5mm ballstud washer instead (the standard spacer is 2mm). Smoothens the shock action without leaks.
Build Tip #2
The shock can be built bladder style or emulsion style. I think the manuals shows it being built with a bladder. If you choose to build it emulsion style you'll have to trim the bladder and drill the hole through the cap for the bleeder screw. 1.5mm or #55 drill bit (see picture)
There's also a small dimple on the shock cap that you can ream out. If you build it bladder style this helps the excess oil escape when screwing on the cap. 1/8 guys should be familiar with this feature.
Build Tip #3
I made the spring collar o-rings a little on the tight side in case if some drivers like them tight. If you want to loosen the collar action you can cut off a portion of the o-ring before stuffing it into the collar. For me I use a 3/4 ring (cut off 1/4).
Build Tip #4
During the initial build you pop the shock onto the tower ball stud. However in order to prevent the fit from getting sloppy over time, do not pop it off the ball when removing the shock. Instead used the supplied stamped wrench and undo the nut instead.
Build Tip #5
You can adjust your droop by threading the shock eyelet in and out. The shafts and eyelets were designed for this so you don't run out of thread. The shock shafts already have markings on them.
Ty uses Kyosho x-rings which adds smoothness. During testing after the Cactus the AE guys gave us some of their new x-rings to try. They claim theirs work as well without the Kyo price. Haven't tried them yet though.
I do the poor-man method... I use the stock o-rings but replace the spacer between them with a 1.5mm ballstud washer instead (the standard spacer is 2mm). Smoothens the shock action without leaks.
Build Tip #2
The shock can be built bladder style or emulsion style. I think the manuals shows it being built with a bladder. If you choose to build it emulsion style you'll have to trim the bladder and drill the hole through the cap for the bleeder screw. 1.5mm or #55 drill bit (see picture)
There's also a small dimple on the shock cap that you can ream out. If you build it bladder style this helps the excess oil escape when screwing on the cap. 1/8 guys should be familiar with this feature.
Build Tip #3
I made the spring collar o-rings a little on the tight side in case if some drivers like them tight. If you want to loosen the collar action you can cut off a portion of the o-ring before stuffing it into the collar. For me I use a 3/4 ring (cut off 1/4).
Build Tip #4
During the initial build you pop the shock onto the tower ball stud. However in order to prevent the fit from getting sloppy over time, do not pop it off the ball when removing the shock. Instead used the supplied stamped wrench and undo the nut instead.
Build Tip #5
You can adjust your droop by threading the shock eyelet in and out. The shafts and eyelets were designed for this so you don't run out of thread. The shock shafts already have markings on them.
Build Tip #6
When installing the motor, clock the solder tabs off to the side. If you have it vertically straight up and down the tabs and wires will interfere with the body.
Build Tip #7
This is more of a maintenance tip but it is useful to know when you are installing your electronics.
The center diff is a very useful tuning item for this car. To access it, remove the motor clamp, the 4 screws on the top plate, and the 4 screws at the bottom which holds the bulkheads.
Once those are off you can swing the motor out of the way then you can slide the diff/bulkhead assembly off to the side. When you mount your ESC and receiver make sure you leave room to do this.
Build Tip #8
Use scrap lexan to make 'L' shaped brackets to mount velcro for the body. There should be plenty of usable excess from trimming the wing. When you mount the brackets make sure you have enough room for the battery to be installed in the full forward position, just in case if you want to try that setup.
Build Tip #9
If you look at the battery straps for the saddle pack (the two shorter ones included in the kit) there are two holes on the straps that seem to have no purpose. The spacing between those holes is exactly the same as the servo mounting holes. You can use the strap as a servo centering jig so that it is easier to center the servo between the mounts before you mount the servo assembly onto the chassis. Hopefully that makes sense.
[I'll try to add a pic later.]
When installing the motor, clock the solder tabs off to the side. If you have it vertically straight up and down the tabs and wires will interfere with the body.
Build Tip #7
This is more of a maintenance tip but it is useful to know when you are installing your electronics.
The center diff is a very useful tuning item for this car. To access it, remove the motor clamp, the 4 screws on the top plate, and the 4 screws at the bottom which holds the bulkheads.
Once those are off you can swing the motor out of the way then you can slide the diff/bulkhead assembly off to the side. When you mount your ESC and receiver make sure you leave room to do this.
Build Tip #8
Use scrap lexan to make 'L' shaped brackets to mount velcro for the body. There should be plenty of usable excess from trimming the wing. When you mount the brackets make sure you have enough room for the battery to be installed in the full forward position, just in case if you want to try that setup.
Build Tip #9
If you look at the battery straps for the saddle pack (the two shorter ones included in the kit) there are two holes on the straps that seem to have no purpose. The spacing between those holes is exactly the same as the servo mounting holes. You can use the strap as a servo centering jig so that it is easier to center the servo between the mounts before you mount the servo assembly onto the chassis. Hopefully that makes sense.
[I'll try to add a pic later.]
…i put some black grease on the hex pin before installing it. the grease causes it to stick in place. i tried thread lock before and that works too but be very careful how much you put on - if you put too much it'll be extremely difficult to remove. if you opt with thread lock just put a tiny dab at the ends and make sure it doesn't come near the axle.
I mount my ESC in the rear because the wiring is cleaner. But to compensate I run the battery forward. Ty has his ESC up front but has his battery in the middle position.
I don't know if my ESC mounting makes the handling better or not but it works well enough for me. Granted I can't drive like Ty.
I don't know if my ESC mounting makes the handling better or not but it works well enough for me. Granted I can't drive like Ty.
Setup Tips from Ty
I personally don't use the servo saver I use the HB servo horn and go directly to my servo, I think with the super high torque and super strong servos that we have now you don't really need to use a servo saver, but if you are on a budget and you want to preserve your servo you just have to set it according to driveability.
As far as oils for the kit for the front I have used 20K, 15k and 10k diff oils, Losi makes all these oils, for the center you will need 100k and 300k, I have tested higher and lower but didn't really like them. For the rear you will need 10k and down depending on track conditions.
All my setups are posted on my website, I will be posting another setup today based on an indoor loose track, from these setups everyone should be able to get a setup for the conditions that they run on. If anyone needs additional setup tips, you can go on my website to the Ask Ty portion of the site and I will do my best to answer the questions as soon as possible.
There is also a diff building video on my site under the tips and tricks, this will be especially helpful for those of you that normally only run electric. Torrance has built an amazing diff, I would say that these diffs will last 4x as long as a ball diff before you need to change the oil.
As far as oils for the kit for the front I have used 20K, 15k and 10k diff oils, Losi makes all these oils, for the center you will need 100k and 300k, I have tested higher and lower but didn't really like them. For the rear you will need 10k and down depending on track conditions.
All my setups are posted on my website, I will be posting another setup today based on an indoor loose track, from these setups everyone should be able to get a setup for the conditions that they run on. If anyone needs additional setup tips, you can go on my website to the Ask Ty portion of the site and I will do my best to answer the questions as soon as possible.
There is also a diff building video on my site under the tips and tricks, this will be especially helpful for those of you that normally only run electric. Torrance has built an amazing diff, I would say that these diffs will last 4x as long as a ball diff before you need to change the oil.
| + YouTube Video | |
Gearing
Code:
Motor 4wd FDR D413 pinion 4.5 12 19.8 5.5 11 21.7 6.5 10 23.8 7.5 9.5 25.1 8.5 9 26.5 10.5 8 29.8 13.5 7 34.0 17.5 6 39.7
With a shorty this buggy is going to be lighter than the average 4wd, you can probably get away with more aggressive gearing, but the data from Novak is a good place to start. If you want more speed and are still under 160 degrees Fahrenheit, go up a tooth. With new gearing, always check motor and ESC temperatures every couple laps. A cheap IR temp gun makes this task very painless.
currently the largest pinion that the car will accept is a 38T which will yield a final drive of 6.27. hopefully this can get you in the ballpark in the beginning. if a 4WD stock class does emerge then we'll make a smaller spur. for now however there hasn't been many tracks that run a 17.5 blinky 4WD.
(for reference the D413 comes with a 72T spur and the gearbox ratio is 43/13)
(for reference the D413 comes with a 72T spur and the gearbox ratio is 43/13)
Exotek now makes a spur kit with a separate spur and diff case piece, so replacing the spur is slightly easier (don't need to mess with the fluid). There is also a 68 tooth spur available for guys that are looking to run 17.5.
Springs
HPI/HB Part Number - Description/Rating (COLOR)
#113059 - 1/10 BUGGY FRONT SPRING 52.3 G/MM (GREEN)
#113060 - 1/10 BUGGY FRONT SPRING 54.4 G/MM (WHITE)
#113061 - 1/10 BUGGY FRONT SPRING 56.7 G/MM (BLUE)
#113062 - 1/10 BUGGY FRONT SPRING 59.1 G/MM (YELLOW)
#113063 - 1/10 BUGGY FRONT SPRING 61.8 G/MM (GOLD) (Standard)
#113064 - 1/10 BUGGY FRONT SPRING 64.8 G/MM (RED)
#113065 - 1/10 BUGGY REAR SPRING 32.9 G/MM (GREEN)
#113066 - 1/10 BUGGY REAR SPRING 34.0 G/MM (WHITE)
#113067 - 1/10 BUGGY REAR SPRING 35.2 G/MM (BLUE)
#113068 - 1/10 BUGGY REAR SPRING 36.4 G/MM (YELLOW) (Standard)
#113069 - 1/10 BUGGY REAR SPRING 37.8 G/MM (GOLD)
#113070 - 1/10 BUGGY REAR SPRING 39.2 G/MM (RED)
Ty was running Kyosho springs right away due to the familiarity with them and the lack of availability of the HB springs. Now the springs are in stock pretty much everywhere and most people are running them (including Ty). I haven't seen a setup with anything lighter than Yellow/Yellow.
Rims and Hex Rim Adapters
Kyosho, Associated, Losi, etc all have very similar offset for rears these days, and with the included 12mm hex, they should all work.
In the front, obviously D413 rims work, Losi 22 and 22-4 have the proper offset (22 rims are only 2mm narrower), and Associated 4WD fronts will work but end up in a slightly narrower width. Ty won the nationals with Associated offset rims, and has run 22 fronts since then. Kyosho 4WD fronts are very close and Yokomo 4WD fronts seem to work well too.
The 22 front wheel is slightly narrower. The yellow wheel shown is a TLR-22 front, the white wheel is an HB D413 front.
Ty uses PL #2734-04
http://prolineracing.com/wheels/velo...hite-wheels-22
The reason I chose the 22's offset is because it has a flat dish compared to the typical 4WD wheel which has a convex dish. The convex dish makes the wheel nut stick out further past the tire making it more prone to getting snagged on track pipes/borders. Also when going through tech the max width includes the wheel nuts so with the convex shaped dish you end up with a narrower front track width (center line distance between the two front tires) from the same maximum width (wheel nut to wheel nut).
Ty uses PL #2734-04
http://prolineracing.com/wheels/velo...hite-wheels-22
The reason I chose the 22's offset is because it has a flat dish compared to the typical 4WD wheel which has a convex dish. The convex dish makes the wheel nut stick out further past the tire making it more prone to getting snagged on track pipes/borders. Also when going through tech the max width includes the wheel nuts so with the convex shaped dish you end up with a narrower front track width (center line distance between the two front tires) from the same maximum width (wheel nut to wheel nut).
Pistons
The kit comes with four sets of pistons, one set is blank, the other three are 4 hole: 1.2mm, 1.3mm, and 1.4mm. Multiple companies are making pistons with reeds (RCShox, VRP) and 2 hole 1.6mm and 1.7mm are popular.
Diff Fluid Choice
I have multiple diffs pre-built so that I can make changes quickly. For the front I have a 10k and a 15k; center I have a 50k, 100k, and a 300k; rear I have a 5k and a 3k. For the most part I've left the 15k up front, for the center 90% of the time I have the 100k in but on a loose fresh track I put in the 50k, and when I'm feeling lucky about setting the car up to clear a giant quad I'd put in the 300k. The rear has been changing a lot. At the nats Ty ran 10k but it's been getting lower and lower the more we refine the setup. Currently I have 3k in the rear but at the Reedy Race Ty ran 2k.
10/100/10 was the ROAR Nats setup which was a high grip track. That's what was published as the kit build setup because at the time the manual was being written that's what we knew. Later the setup evolved to a heavier front and lighter rear. The feel isn't drastically different, the 15/100/3 is just a bit more stable all around. For this car the center diff is the main component that changes the character of the car. As you can see the center diff stayed at 100 on both setups.
Steering Slop and Geometry Adjustments
the +/- raises and lowers the rack 0.5mm for bump steer adjustment. if the + is facing up it is higher, with the - facing up the rack sits lower. you can also put shims under the rack if you need more than 0.5mm.
the dots are for ackermann adjustment. if you have the dot facing forward it pushes the ballstud further forward, giving you less ackermann and vice versa. similarly you can also use shims. i designed it this way in case if you want to run the ballstud far forward you don't have to use huge stack of shims and possibly run out of thread engagement.
the dots are for ackermann adjustment. if you have the dot facing forward it pushes the ballstud further forward, giving you less ackermann and vice versa. similarly you can also use shims. i designed it this way in case if you want to run the ballstud far forward you don't have to use huge stack of shims and possibly run out of thread engagement.
What Else Do You Need With The Kit
Different Shock Towers Explanation
the front shock towers have two options. they're basically the same but the option tower offers 'in between' hole locations.
the rear tower is a little more complex... if you notice the rear arms have two shock mounting holes that are not inline - the outer one is inline with the plane of the arm while the inner one is underslung providing a 'gullwing' geometry. the 'A' rear tower is optimized for the outer shock mount on the arm while the 'C' rear tower is optimized for the inner shock mount. the kit is supplied with the 'B' tower which in between the A & C towers.
the rear tower is a little more complex... if you notice the rear arms have two shock mounting holes that are not inline - the outer one is inline with the plane of the arm while the inner one is underslung providing a 'gullwing' geometry. the 'A' rear tower is optimized for the outer shock mount on the arm while the 'C' rear tower is optimized for the inner shock mount. the kit is supplied with the 'B' tower which in between the A & C towers.
What Parts Break
it's not the hinge pins that bend, it's the mounting screws that bend and absorb the impacts. these are just M3x20 flat head screws. you can get a bag of them cheap.
so far on my car the things I've broken are the steering rack from repeatedly clipping a pipe coupler at high speed, a rear tower (the carbon piece) when somebody jumped the track and hit me full speed at the end of the straight, and a front shock shaft from a heavy head-on collision.
I think on Ty's car he finally broke the shock towers (plastic part) on his practice car at the Cactus. but these parts though were from the original sample batch we got a year ago and we think that the cold and dry climate of Canada's winters made the parts slightly brittle after sitting all these months. the arm mounts have been replaced after wear from running on an abrasive surface. other than those I don't think anything else needed to be replaced on Ty's car.
so far on my car the things I've broken are the steering rack from repeatedly clipping a pipe coupler at high speed, a rear tower (the carbon piece) when somebody jumped the track and hit me full speed at the end of the straight, and a front shock shaft from a heavy head-on collision.
I think on Ty's car he finally broke the shock towers (plastic part) on his practice car at the Cactus. but these parts though were from the original sample batch we got a year ago and we think that the cold and dry climate of Canada's winters made the parts slightly brittle after sitting all these months. the arm mounts have been replaced after wear from running on an abrasive surface. other than those I don't think anything else needed to be replaced on Ty's car.
Increasing Arms Stiffness
We know the D413 has "Signature HB Monocoque suspension arms for stiffness, strength and adjustability" but you can increase the stiffness without buying the carbon fiber plates.
Wing Mounts
and.... each wing mount is held by an upper screw and a lower screw. you can adjust the wing angle by adding shims to one of the screw locations. you probably can't see it in the pictures by Ty has a 0.5mm shim on the lower screw to give the wing a little more angle of attack.
Weight with Shorty Pack
I don't think I traded off any performance to gain durability. Definitely didn't sacrifice anything on suspension geometry or drivetrain. The one target I didn't quite hit was the minimum weight - the rules allow as low as 1613g but the D413 with a shorty weighs in around 1720g give or take. I tried to get it as close to minimum as I can but I would've had to skimp out on some strength to achieve it. Still though most of the competition weighs in close to 1800g and still has durability issues.
Maximum Battery Height
Hey Torrance, (I'm sorry if I'm repeating a question)
Just looking around at the different options for battery packs at the moment...
I clearly know and understand that it will fit a shorty, or a saddle...
But could you maybe tell us what the measurement is from the chassis to the topdeck is.
I've got some packs(that aren't roar approved.) That I'm curious to see if they are going to fit.
They measure 69x46x31!!! They're thick little bricks.... 5700mAh (2s3p)
By the looks of the pics it's going to be close. But I think the issue with fitting them in there is going to be the front mount of the rear triangulated tower brace....
Thanks again.
Just looking around at the different options for battery packs at the moment...
I clearly know and understand that it will fit a shorty, or a saddle...
But could you maybe tell us what the measurement is from the chassis to the topdeck is.
I've got some packs(that aren't roar approved.) That I'm curious to see if they are going to fit.
They measure 69x46x31!!! They're thick little bricks.... 5700mAh (2s3p)
By the looks of the pics it's going to be close. But I think the issue with fitting them in there is going to be the front mount of the rear triangulated tower brace....
Thanks again.
Richard Lowe Euro Setup
Setup from HPI Test Day, med-high grip astro
D413 & Ty Tessmann Race Results
Cactus Classic March 13-16 2014 2nd Place
RedRC's Recap
Videos for A1 A2 A3
Reedy Race January 29th 2014 3rd Place (results based on points with 2wd and 4wd combined)
RedRC's Recap
IFMAR Worlds September 13-29 2013 3rd Place
NeoBuggy's Recap
4wd Recap Video
Practice Day
ROAR Nationals August 8-11 2013 1st Place
NeoBuggy's Recap
TQ run Video
Often mentioned "Durability Testing" at the IFMAR World's
Ty's interview at 5:55 and the incident at 6:15
| + YouTube Video | |
Last edited by Jakesterama; 04-12-2015 at 05:46 PM.
07-29-2013, 01:20 PM
#2
07-29-2013, 01:30 PM
#4
Seems like no other info has been given yet from HPI. Photo and info above were from HPI Racing.
07-29-2013, 01:41 PM
#5
Tech Master
Interested to see what they have in store. 
07-29-2013, 03:19 PM
#8
07-29-2013, 11:48 PM
#11
Tech Regular
Almost looks like the same length shocks front and rear.
07-30-2013, 06:47 AM
#13
the body looks like the cyber 10b body..
07-31-2013, 02:46 PM
#15
Hope we see a little better support than we are currently