ROAR blinky rule for 2012?
12-06-2011 | 07:50 PM
#31
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,855
From: Chicago, IL
We all drive $1000+ racing vehicles and we're complaining about a $30 USB interface? Really?
Here's my side of the story:
Our local track runs mostly stock because it's too small for mod to be a benefit. Fine and dandy, but I went to my first big national event last year (Columbus) and even though I had 3 perfect heats within .4 seconds of each other, I still only qualified 22nd out of 55 cars. Between my ESC (which didn't have boost options) and my motor (which could only go up to 15 degrees of timing), I was at a pretty big power disadvantage versus the guys running 60 degrees of motor timing and boost through the roof. Tebo, Cav and the top guys in mod buggy were running 21.0's - the fastest stock buggy time I saw all weekend was 21.9, and a heat time that would have put him high in the B-main for mod buggy. Oh, and this was a high-speed, super fast track where RPM and power did make a difference. After that race, I vowed to never run stock again anywhere other than my local track, where we pretty much have to.
With this new update, and maybe mandating a locked motor like Trinity/Epic has come out with, stock racing MAY become fun again, and with good batteries at a decent price, it may actually make things more fair than we've seen in a long time.
Here's my side of the story:
Our local track runs mostly stock because it's too small for mod to be a benefit. Fine and dandy, but I went to my first big national event last year (Columbus) and even though I had 3 perfect heats within .4 seconds of each other, I still only qualified 22nd out of 55 cars. Between my ESC (which didn't have boost options) and my motor (which could only go up to 15 degrees of timing), I was at a pretty big power disadvantage versus the guys running 60 degrees of motor timing and boost through the roof. Tebo, Cav and the top guys in mod buggy were running 21.0's - the fastest stock buggy time I saw all weekend was 21.9, and a heat time that would have put him high in the B-main for mod buggy. Oh, and this was a high-speed, super fast track where RPM and power did make a difference. After that race, I vowed to never run stock again anywhere other than my local track, where we pretty much have to.
With this new update, and maybe mandating a locked motor like Trinity/Epic has come out with, stock racing MAY become fun again, and with good batteries at a decent price, it may actually make things more fair than we've seen in a long time.
12-06-2011 | 08:02 PM
#32
If it's to change for different tracks then you are really not being inconvenienced- I can adjust via hotwire in less than 5 minutes, and inbetween race weekends 5 minutes to set my esc pales in comparison to the other time I spend to keep everything running the way I want it to.
As for the rule change, I have recently had a change of heart. For the entire length of this debate (basically ever since Tekin gave the masses timing adjustments in the esc- I could never justify $400 for the Advanced unit...) I was against blinky mode. I like the extra speed without running mod class (and still do), but after racing a few weekends at Trackside where that's what they run, I'm all for it because the racing is better. I do firmly believe that my motor costs will go up because they will see more temperature and wear out faster, but if it makes the competition better while also making it easier for beginners to enter the class then I'll gladly buy an extra motor or two without complaint.
As for the rule change, I have recently had a change of heart. For the entire length of this debate (basically ever since Tekin gave the masses timing adjustments in the esc- I could never justify $400 for the Advanced unit...) I was against blinky mode. I like the extra speed without running mod class (and still do), but after racing a few weekends at Trackside where that's what they run, I'm all for it because the racing is better. I do firmly believe that my motor costs will go up because they will see more temperature and wear out faster, but if it makes the competition better while also making it easier for beginners to enter the class then I'll gladly buy an extra motor or two without complaint.
Trackside runs an awesome program that racers have embraced. Having a "solid and defined" class structure is one of the many reasons that the Stock classes have grown legs at Trakside. To race blinky or to not race blinky is and always will be up to the racer. What Tekin did, with releasing a "locked blinky" option is genius. Tekin is giving the customers and promoters/directors what they want. Which is a clear and defined Stock setting. I watched and listened as the Spektrum race got underway, as many did with Liverc.com I listened to Scotty say over and over again to make sure the stock class was in blinky mode. He called people by name that could help in setting up ESC's in blinky mode. Not saying most people couldn't figure out how to get into blinky mode. But what if Mr. Pillars wasn't there from Orion to setup blinky on the new Orion ESC? I heard Scotty call his name several times. (as well as others) It's stressful for the racer and the promoter/director when things don't run smoothly. Tekin went an extra mile and made it simple for promoters/dircetors.....lock it up and cross it off the list! Nice job Tekin.
12-06-2011 | 10:18 PM
#34
True, but busting out a netbook, hotwire, pulling the throttle plug, starting the netbook, starting the program, plugging everything in, navigating to the setting, changing it, applying it, shutting down, disconnecting, connecting the throttle back up, then swapping pinions vs. just swapping pinions and pushing a couple buttons a few times... Big difference.
12-06-2011 | 11:24 PM
#35
Tech Adept
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 193
I think perhaps a lot of people here are missing the point. I dont think its about the cost, its the user experience. To be able to easily set blinky mode on the speed control directly without the use of extra interfaces is just easy and simple. And thats not to say you cant still have an interface option to do stuff like update the firmware. Its important to listen to race organizers but more critical to make sure the user experience is not sacrificed.
12-07-2011 | 04:07 AM
#36
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 80
From: Dillsburg, PA
The only way that this is gonna change is if ROAR picks a ESC and motor and mandated those only in stock. With so many choices in "blinky" mode, there is just too many variables. This may not be a hugh issue in off-road, but it was an issue in dirt oval racing.
Unfortunately, the only problem with this, is the folks that choose to run a stock class will now have to buy new equipment...which I feel that most folks would not be willing to do.
Unfortunately, the only problem with this, is the folks that choose to run a stock class will now have to buy new equipment...which I feel that most folks would not be willing to do.
Frankly, it's easier and faster to me than fussing with little buttons on the esc. Man o man, people love to complain.
12-07-2011 | 09:17 AM
#38
Company Representative
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,891
From: SoCal
The only way that this is gonna change is if ROAR picks a ESC and motor and mandated those only in stock. With so many choices in "blinky" mode, there is just too many variables. This may not be a hugh issue in off-road, but it was an issue in dirt oval racing.
Unfortunately, the only problem with this, is the folks that choose to run a stock class will now have to buy new equipment...which I feel that most folks would not be willing to do.
Unfortunately, the only problem with this, is the folks that choose to run a stock class will now have to buy new equipment...which I feel that most folks would not be willing to do.
Purpose-built, spec controllers would be guaranteed by the esc manufacturer as non-timing/boost and the manufacturer/importer would be held accountable for any irregularities----not the customer or race director. Cheating would not be possible. This would be far easier to monitor by the racing organizations. We all know what can, and has been done to circumvent the current guidelines.
We currently have 2 controllers for less than $100 street price ideally suited to the parameters I outlined above.
12-07-2011 | 09:36 AM
#39
Tech Addict
iTrader: (16)
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 638
From: Franklin, Indiana
I have not used novak products for a while but in my experience Novak forced us to buy new products to keep up with their technology. Where as the tekin and other programmable units have a much longer useful life to the user. So what really cost more, three different specs of ESCs to meet standards or a unified ESC that can do it all? Mod racing for the win...
12-07-2011 | 09:40 AM
#40
Tech Legend
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 22,595
From: TRCR Modified Driver
TeamNovak's opinion is that stock/spec escs should be stand-alone controllers---no PC interface, no firmware update-ability by the user, no external programming devices. This has been our position since the introduction of timing/boost, PC programmable escs.
Purpose-built, spec controllers would be guaranteed by the esc manufacturer as non-timing/boost and the manufacturer/importer would be held accountable for any irregularities----not the customer or race director. Cheating would not be possible. This would be far easier to monitor by the racing organizations. We all know what can, and has been done to circumvent the current guidelines.
We currently have 2 controllers for less than $100 street price ideally suited to the parameters I outlined above.
Purpose-built, spec controllers would be guaranteed by the esc manufacturer as non-timing/boost and the manufacturer/importer would be held accountable for any irregularities----not the customer or race director. Cheating would not be possible. This would be far easier to monitor by the racing organizations. We all know what can, and has been done to circumvent the current guidelines.
We currently have 2 controllers for less than $100 street price ideally suited to the parameters I outlined above.
Would work great and need's to be done like yesterday ....
I see guys in club racing using the ban boost everyday in stock , it makes stock racing a joke when its so easy to cheat ....
12-07-2011 | 09:45 AM
#41
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 80
From: Dillsburg, PA
TeamNovak's opinion is that stock/spec escs should be stand-alone controllers---no PC interface, no firmware update-ability by the user, no external programming devices. This has been our position since the introduction of timing/boost, PC programmable escs.
Purpose-built, spec controllers would be guaranteed by the esc manufacturer as non-timing/boost and the manufacturer/importer would be held accountable for any irregularities----not the customer or race director. Cheating would not be possible. This would be far easier to monitor by the racing organizations. We all know what can, and has been done to circumvent the current guidelines.
We currently have 2 controllers for less than $100 street price ideally suited to the parameters I outlined above.
Purpose-built, spec controllers would be guaranteed by the esc manufacturer as non-timing/boost and the manufacturer/importer would be held accountable for any irregularities----not the customer or race director. Cheating would not be possible. This would be far easier to monitor by the racing organizations. We all know what can, and has been done to circumvent the current guidelines.
We currently have 2 controllers for less than $100 street price ideally suited to the parameters I outlined above.
Otherwise, just make it a Run what ya brung class, and have at it. This option would help vehicle counts at some smaller local events as well. For most of the indoor tracks, you really cannot tell a difference between stock and mod 2wd anyway, except for those places that make you run stock tires.
12-07-2011 | 09:53 AM
#42
Company Representative
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,891
From: SoCal
I have not used novak products for a while but in my experience Novak forced us to buy new products to keep up with their technology. Where as the tekin and other programmable units have a much longer useful life to the user. So what really cost more, three different specs of ESCs to meet standards or a unified ESC that can do it all? Mod racing for the win...
When you want a new, or different, Novak controller (motor), you can send in the old one and get something else--completely different. If you have a discontinued Novak item gathering dust in your toolbox, you can return it and upgrade to anything we currently manufacture. So allowing our customers to upgrade to our newly-designed electronics is part of our system.
12-07-2011 | 10:10 AM
#43
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,766
From: Houston
Some of you kids are little spoiled lazy entitled brats! In the 80's we had 2 classes, stock and modified. Stock class used a 27 turn sealed can brushed motor. You couldn't adjust timing. Our speed controls didn't have boost. Our batteries were all nicads and stock class was limited to 6 cells. Those classes all came down to car setup and driver. There was a huge difference in speed between them and modified. Keep in mind 25 years ago, those 4-5 minute runtime batteries were around $35 and stock motors were also around $30-$35. We had to clean our motors out after every run and replace brushes from time to time. The trick back then was partially luck over how strong the motor was you bought, how carefully you broke in it and how well you geared it. We had a couple of brush options, one of which would advance your timing by 6 degrees by cutting half of the brush surface off. Anther brush option gave you more low end at the expense of top end. They all had their trade offs and none of them was a huge difference. Maybe a pinion tooth or so. If you wanted to spend even more money you could buy a battery pack with matched cells and then build it yourself. We had SC, SCR's and SCE cells. The SC was the standard everyday crap battery. The SCR was the higher punch battery and the SCE with it's whopping 1400 mah rating was the endurance battery. To help with runtime we got our cars as light as possible. No added weight to help traction. No difference in tire compounds and no tire inserts were used.
Modified class allowed any motor that wasn't a stock motor which means any turn motor you felt worked for you. Batteries were 7 cell nicads. You didn't just install the fastest motor you could because you might not finish the race. You also had to work out if you preferred a single wind, double, triple, or potentially quad turn motor for your track. Brushes wore out even faster. Speed controls didn't have timing control. Motors back then were anywhere from $45 for a "slow" modified to around an average of $60 and well above for the serious racer. Keep in mind I'm talking about mid to late 80's dollars here.
You guys have it good now so don't expect any sympathy from me when it comes to who should pay a few extra dollars so they won't be allowed to cheat anymore. Do it like we used to do it and pay an equivalent amount for it all accounting for today's dollar values and see how different it is. One thing applies today that applied back then too. If you don't agree with it, don't do it. Keep in mind I'm still leaving out other things such as radio crystals, and frequency conflicts, not to mention the fact that my radio cost me $115 in 1986!
Modified class allowed any motor that wasn't a stock motor which means any turn motor you felt worked for you. Batteries were 7 cell nicads. You didn't just install the fastest motor you could because you might not finish the race. You also had to work out if you preferred a single wind, double, triple, or potentially quad turn motor for your track. Brushes wore out even faster. Speed controls didn't have timing control. Motors back then were anywhere from $45 for a "slow" modified to around an average of $60 and well above for the serious racer. Keep in mind I'm talking about mid to late 80's dollars here.
You guys have it good now so don't expect any sympathy from me when it comes to who should pay a few extra dollars so they won't be allowed to cheat anymore. Do it like we used to do it and pay an equivalent amount for it all accounting for today's dollar values and see how different it is. One thing applies today that applied back then too. If you don't agree with it, don't do it. Keep in mind I'm still leaving out other things such as radio crystals, and frequency conflicts, not to mention the fact that my radio cost me $115 in 1986!
12-07-2011 | 10:19 AM
#44
Jason races stock classes. Even at tracks that allow ESCs with timing advance he still races with zero timing. He is not always happy about it, but at the end of the day or season or year, he is a better driver because of it. Setup, tires, tire prep, gearing, motor timing are all important and you are forced to learn them and how they relate to your driving. You learn to drive clean and steady, NO mistakes. Thats what wins races. Everything has to fall into place. It makes for great racing and great drivers in my opinion.
The easier it is to tech the better off the racers and track owners will be.
Keith.
The easier it is to tech the better off the racers and track owners will be.
Keith.
12-07-2011 | 10:27 AM
#45
Some of you kids are little spoiled lazy entitled brats! In the 80's we had 2 classes, stock and modified. Stock class used a 27 turn sealed can brushed motor. You couldn't adjust timing. Our speed controls didn't have boost. Our batteries were all nicads and stock class was limited to 6 cells. Those classes all came down to car setup and driver. There was a huge difference in speed between them and modified. Keep in mind 25 years ago, those 4-5 minute runtime batteries were around $35 and stock motors were also around $30-$35. We had to clean our motors out after every run and replace brushes from time to time. The trick back then was partially luck over how strong the motor was you bought, how carefully you broke in it and how well you geared it. We had a couple of brush options, one of which would advance your timing by 6 degrees by cutting half of the brush surface off. Anther brush option gave you more low end at the expense of top end. They all had their trade offs and none of them was a huge difference. Maybe a pinion tooth or so. If you wanted to spend even more money you could buy a battery pack with matched cells and then build it yourself. We had SC, SCR's and SCE cells. The SC was the standard everyday crap battery. The SCR was the higher punch battery and the SCE with it's whopping 1400 mah rating was the endurance battery. To help with runtime we got our cars as light as possible. No added weight to help traction. No difference in tire compounds and no tire inserts were used.
Modified class allowed any motor that wasn't a stock motor which means any turn motor you felt worked for you. Batteries were 7 cell nicads. You didn't just install the fastest motor you could because you might not finish the race. You also had to work out if you preferred a single wind, double, triple, or potentially quad turn motor for your track. Brushes wore out even faster. Speed controls didn't have timing control. Motors back then were anywhere from $45 for a "slow" modified to around an average of $60 and well above for the serious racer. Keep in mind I'm talking about mid to late 80's dollars here.
You guys have it good now so don't expect any sympathy from me when it comes to who should pay a few extra dollars so they won't be allowed to cheat anymore. Do it like we used to do it and pay an equivalent amount for it all accounting for today's dollar values and see how different it is. One thing applies today that applied back then too. If you don't agree with it, don't do it. Keep in mind I'm still leaving out other things such as radio crystals, and frequency conflicts, not to mention the fact that my radio cost me $115 in 1986!
Modified class allowed any motor that wasn't a stock motor which means any turn motor you felt worked for you. Batteries were 7 cell nicads. You didn't just install the fastest motor you could because you might not finish the race. You also had to work out if you preferred a single wind, double, triple, or potentially quad turn motor for your track. Brushes wore out even faster. Speed controls didn't have timing control. Motors back then were anywhere from $45 for a "slow" modified to around an average of $60 and well above for the serious racer. Keep in mind I'm talking about mid to late 80's dollars here.
You guys have it good now so don't expect any sympathy from me when it comes to who should pay a few extra dollars so they won't be allowed to cheat anymore. Do it like we used to do it and pay an equivalent amount for it all accounting for today's dollar values and see how different it is. One thing applies today that applied back then too. If you don't agree with it, don't do it. Keep in mind I'm still leaving out other things such as radio crystals, and frequency conflicts, not to mention the fact that my radio cost me $115 in 1986!