RogerM

Sadly the answer to how we deal with it is the one you really don't want to hear, we throw tyres at it. It is a HUGE topic of discussion here in the UK, with a lot of fast drivers being sponsored directly by Schumacher or their sponsors having an account with Schumacher for tyres it is not uncommon to see those drivers doing a single run on a set of tyres per race day! Remember in the UK most series are run on Schumacher tyres as control tyres due to sponsorship of the series.

Not saying this is true of everyone but the majority of people do something along the lines of this;

A new set of tyres every run (two runs maximum) at a major event, if that is practice, 4 rounds of qualifying and then a final that will be typically 3+ sets of tyres per meeting.
Those tyres will then go on to be used for a minor event like a club meeting (1 or 2 more runs each)
Then they carry on being used on practice sessions until they give no grip at all.

This means that we do get quite a lot of running out of tyres, just not at "racing" pace, typically the 3rd run on a set of yellow MininDarts is about 0.5s/lap slower on a 30s laptime.

EOS / CRC carpet is about the same.
For example I have a "winter series" round this weekend and as it is a points series race I'll use my normal indoor tyre routine;

Practice on used tyres (from last round of the series)
Round 1 I'll use a full new set of tyres (set 1)
Round 2 I'll use another new set of tyres (set 2)
Round 3 will see set 1 used again
Round 4 will see set 2 used again

The reason for doing this is that as the day goes on the line cleans up and thus the grip increases, that means I find it better to have the fresh rubber earlier in the day and staggering the sets as above means that the feeling as the tyres wear and the track grip comes up pretty much balances out.
In the finals it will either be another set of tyres (if I think I'm on for a podium I will definitely do this) or more typically it will be the least worn set from qualifying, the other set being the practice set for the next series round.
If anybody thinks I'm one of the guys with a tyre deal I am not, although Model-Car-Racer do help me out a little bit.

RogerM

Here is the national round from my "local" club in the UK, Kidderminster. Really bumpy, lots of different grip levels around the lap and plenty of gradient (although built before the current generation of big jumps)

RogerM

Here is an example of a layout of the (now worn) EOS carpet venue the series race I mentioned above is held at

Devin

I overlooked where you said front. Are you stuffing front tires of 2wd, 4wd or both?

RC*PHREAK

iTrader: (146)

all these euro videos, didn't see a single holeshot start hero. must be a dickhead american thing...

Roadburn

iTrader: (1)

lol ya must mean the guy who tries to gain three positions off the start and then wrecks 2 laps later.

RC*PHREAK

iTrader: (146)

2 laps? more like 2 turns.

m3rcfh

iTrader: (4)

I going to give Schumachers another try at my local astro track using this routine. If I can get a night of club racing and some practice with 2 sets of Schumachers, that's about the same I'm spending on Prolines.

What is the best Schumacher tire for indoor astro at the moment? I got a pair of Cactus, but it looks more like a carpet tire to me than an astro tire (most people go with bigger studs like the Proline Pyramid at my local track. Prisms do good too, but seemingly slower)

Pistol123

I really like the Cactus tire on astro, lots of predictable grip and I find they last 4 or 5 meetings.

RogerM

The Schumacher equivalent tyre would be the MiniDart, that is what we run on astro.
Having said that a few of the clubs who have high wear surfaces are looking at the Proline Pyramid as a control tyre choice as they seem to work a bit longer than the Schumacher tyres.

All the Schumacher tyres live of the leading edge of the spike, as soon as that is even slightly rounded they drop lap time where as the Prolines seem to maintain a better leading edge to the spike as they wear. My only advise is to try both and see what works at your track.

RogerM

I don't mean to be rude but I really don't see how this is possible based on extensive testing and racing in the UK.
The Cactus tyre (any Schumacher actually) wears the leading edge of it's spike quite quickly, it is this edge that allows you to get on the gas hard and when it rounds off it is the reason the lap times start to fall away hard even though they feel like they are still giving good grip the clock tells you otherwise.
Typically 2-3 runs on a Schumacher tyre and the lap times will be quite a lot lower than for a fresh set.

I'll use the past weekend as an example (small but fast indoor carpet track)...
First run I was able to do 13.9s hot laps with an average of 14.2s (so 98% consistency), the fastest guy was doing a 13.7s lap, averaging about 13.9s (I'm old now and he is a multiple national A finalist).
Second run on the same tyres was 14.2s with 14.4 average, hero superstar was 13.7s / 13.9s again as he was on new tyres.
Third run on the tyres was the final (I was alternating 2 sets of tyres) 14.5s with 15.1 average (never very consistent in finals sadly, too much going on for my old brain to process), the superstar driver was on 2nd run tyres and was doing 14.0s with a 14.3s average.

That is a clear 0.5s per lap over a 14s lap .... that is a HUGE loss of time!

The longer the lap, well the more acceleration zones really, the bigger the gap worn to new is. This is why I can't see how you can get multiple meetings out of the tyres, I would really like to know as it would save us all a small fortune!
This is the big issue with Schumacher tyres, they look OK but as soon as that edge goes they are only good for club nights or practice. Equally sad but equally true is that there is no other tyre brand out there that has the ultimate pace of Schumacher's yellow compound on astro and carpet .... Proline are closing in but still not quite there.

robs101

Interesting post RogerM - as a returning UK racer after 20 plus years out, the subject of tyres has bveen very interesting and confusing for me.

I race at NEAM in the North East, and we are a carpet only indoors - the cactus I have on my car after a club night look fine, but the grip, braking performance and general driving is definitely worse than when they were fresh.

As someone who is not fast, but definitely budget minded, would i be better off running prolines if the grip levels were more consistent for longer? Or is the difference still substantial? (if so, what exact prolines are you referring to please, I would like to try a set)

m3rcfh

iTrader: (4)

That's impressive, being that consistent and only 0.2 off the pace from a national A main finalist on a lap that short is awesome. That must be some great driving.

I'm going to give mini darts a try too. I wonder if using a sanding paddle to lightly sand the tire rotating in the opposite running direction would create a new leading edge and improve the life a little bit. I will try that using the tools I have for clay tires.

Also, if you don't mind us picking your brain, watching the videos you shared I see a lot of corner speed on astro. I can't get my XB2 to turn that fast without flipping or breaking traction. What is the general tuning direction you guys use to get more corner speed?

Thanks again for all the great input

Pistol123

I know that astro can be very different at different venues. I race at Coastal and Southend and I am often trying to reduce rear grip - Coastal only has one heavy accelection zone so may be that helps. Southend the grip in the dry is unreal.

I would point out that I race at a slightly different level to you Roger and happy to defer to your greater knowledge.

RogerM

I used to be quick before being old LOL. Helps that I race in an area where we have 16 of the top tier drivers in the UK and a few others that have made the occasional National A final, if you want to be in the A or B finals you have to stay sharp

In days gone by when we ran tyres with taller spikes we'd sometimes trim down the spikes to just below the wear to give a flat top and sharp leading edge, with the shorter spikes on modern tyres there isn't much room to do that. If you find a way please post as lots of people would be very appreciative.

Getting good corner speed on astrofurf and carpet is a combination of being very precise with the driving and also setting the car up to be very forgiving.

Generally when people ask me to help them with traction rolling issues there are 4 things that I commonly find;

1) They are simply asking too much of the car, high grip demands that you get the braking done and the car settled before turning in. When I coach people I always say "higher the grip level the more important it is to be smooth on corner entry" and "you lose more time & risk more crashes by getting the entry wrong than the exit". That is kind of the opposite to what people used to lower grip conditions expect. On high grip if the car starts to slid it is already over as when the speed drops and it finds grip again it will be immediately overwhelmed & will dig in. This is what people mean by slip-grip.

2) Cars are often setup way too stiff in roll; too stiffly sprung, too higher roll centre (especially in the rear) and often under damped. You want the car to be able to roll fairly freely rather than push the tyres into the ground, that way the cars are more docile and easier to drive, you have enough grip most of the time just between tyre and surface. Typically damping looks quite stiff, this is to slow the rate of roll down. Another thing is adding a little extra negative camber does more than you'd expect.

3) Cars are often too high, getting a low centre of gravity is everything (which forces you to an even lower roll centre to allow the car to roll). Typically we run fairly heavy cars, around 1560g for a 2wd, but it is all down low. Low profile lipos with a big chunk of brass under it (typically 45g on astro, 70g on carpet) to really pull the centre of gravity down. Anything you can do to get ride weight from up high helps (light shells & wings, plastic shock caps etc.). Centre of mass really forwards helps too. Brass bulkheads, under servo weights and esc weights all help.

4) Rear too locked in. Always run the least toe you can get away with, most antisquat, axle height as high as you can, diff height high too, if you can get the driveshaft to be slightly sloping up to the diff end at ridehight you are really winning (not easy on most cars).

As you can see from above bumpy astroturf is going to be a serious challenge!

Setup wise one of my closest RC friends is the UK team manager for Xray but he's on holiday at the moment, this setup is one he created for Craig, made top 5 at the RHR national I believe.
http://site.petitrc.com/setup/xray/s...HR2019040607//