6LikesTire compounds, which one, when, why, and does it REALLY matter?
05-01-2018 | 09:27 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 59
From: Clayton North Carolina
Tire compounds, which one, when, why, and does it REALLY matter?
After a 6 yr break, I'm back at rc racing since last summer, and I've yet to really stress over what compound was available in the hobby shop but now that all the tire manufacturers are offering everything from "super-duper crazy insane soft" to "just as soft but with EXTRA LONG WEAR" (which I'm HIGHLY skeptical of), I'm thinking I might better look into this a little more since I'm now racing 1/8 Ebuggy class with its reputation for eating tires.
I do have this one set of Proline (?medium pin, soft I think) and they're still looking good but want to be as economical as possible, while still being competitive.
My local track is typical club-track style well kept and made of North Carolina medium pack clay with a very slight (natural) sand mix, that blue groove's nicely but typically some dust especially outside corners.
Thanks to rctech, I've read that a good way to help your tires go farther is to go harder in compound the more the track blue groove's which I assume is also a good way to maintain a similar "feel" as the track changes / gains grip....(?) I'm thinking example of; track being dusty and very slick but (tire -X- ) is really sticking good, then later in the day the track grooves up nice and those nice (X tires) are now traction rolling and causing you to have to drastically change your driving line and style. (that may be wrong, I'm just throwing it out there).
What I'm hoping to learn here is;
1) just how much faster can a lap be with just a better COMPOUND choice of the same tread?
2) what would be a reason to run harder compounds on an outdoor track (to cut through a dusty track surface or maybe a sugar'ed track?)
3) is saucing/doping worth it at club level 1/8 scale? (guys at my local track have fresh sauce on the tires BETWEEN rounds!)
**** And the big question..... If a tire company makes a "super soft" compound but also offers a "super soft LONG WEAR" (extra life, long life, etc.) can it really be the same sticky soft feel as the "non" long wear version? If it's true, why would you ever run the "regular wear" and buy ($) tires more often?
This is what I'm wrestling with at the moment while trying to decide between the EIGHT (I think) compounds offered by Sweep tires!
I do have this one set of Proline (?medium pin, soft I think) and they're still looking good but want to be as economical as possible, while still being competitive.
My local track is typical club-track style well kept and made of North Carolina medium pack clay with a very slight (natural) sand mix, that blue groove's nicely but typically some dust especially outside corners.
Thanks to rctech, I've read that a good way to help your tires go farther is to go harder in compound the more the track blue groove's which I assume is also a good way to maintain a similar "feel" as the track changes / gains grip....(?) I'm thinking example of; track being dusty and very slick but (tire -X- ) is really sticking good, then later in the day the track grooves up nice and those nice (X tires) are now traction rolling and causing you to have to drastically change your driving line and style. (that may be wrong, I'm just throwing it out there).
What I'm hoping to learn here is;
1) just how much faster can a lap be with just a better COMPOUND choice of the same tread?
2) what would be a reason to run harder compounds on an outdoor track (to cut through a dusty track surface or maybe a sugar'ed track?)
3) is saucing/doping worth it at club level 1/8 scale? (guys at my local track have fresh sauce on the tires BETWEEN rounds!)
**** And the big question..... If a tire company makes a "super soft" compound but also offers a "super soft LONG WEAR" (extra life, long life, etc.) can it really be the same sticky soft feel as the "non" long wear version? If it's true, why would you ever run the "regular wear" and buy ($) tires more often?
This is what I'm wrestling with at the moment while trying to decide between the EIGHT (I think) compounds offered by Sweep tires!
Last edited by XLosiguy; 05-01-2018 at 09:43 PM.
05-02-2018 | 07:52 AM
#2
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,719
From: At dirt tracks in Michigan!
There is an ideal compound for the most traction. Softer doesn't always equal more traction. A tire that is too hard will slide across the surface more readily. A tire that is too soft will shear rubber and more easily fold the carcass as it slides across the surface and feel 'squirmy'. Temperature and how abrasive the track is plays the largest role in picking a compound. For example, the temp drops 20-30 degrees, go from medium to soft or soft to super soft. Also, if the track goes from having some moisture on the surface to dry/blue groove, go up from super soft to soft or soft to medium. These are just rules of thumb for me. Many companies now have specific wet clay and dry clay compounds.
As far as the "long wear" compounds, they are harder than whatever they claim to be a long wear version of. Watch what the pros do: they use the regular compound (lets say Proline M3 in this case) for the qualifiers and then jump to the X3 long wear for the hour long main. Their lap times are usually off a bit from their qualifiers and that is part of the reason.
Personally, for 8th scale I usually stick to the long wear compounds just to keep the cost reasonable. For tracks with some loose dirt on the surface, I'll have the super soft and soft compounds on hand. For blue groove/high wear tracks, I'll have to soft and medium compounds on hand. Usually the medium get used during the day and then if the race runs long and the mains in the evening after it has cooled off 20 degrees, the softer compound goes on.
As far as the "long wear" compounds, they are harder than whatever they claim to be a long wear version of. Watch what the pros do: they use the regular compound (lets say Proline M3 in this case) for the qualifiers and then jump to the X3 long wear for the hour long main. Their lap times are usually off a bit from their qualifiers and that is part of the reason.
Personally, for 8th scale I usually stick to the long wear compounds just to keep the cost reasonable. For tracks with some loose dirt on the surface, I'll have the super soft and soft compounds on hand. For blue groove/high wear tracks, I'll have to soft and medium compounds on hand. Usually the medium get used during the day and then if the race runs long and the mains in the evening after it has cooled off 20 degrees, the softer compound goes on.
05-02-2018 | 11:24 AM
#4
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,410
From: Austin,TX
+1 to Krios advice
Pretty much all brands of tires will perform comparable and tread pattern selection is close enough to where it comes down to pin selection, then compound.
For dry blue groove, I do better with a block style pin and depending on temperature I might go with a thicker/thinner pin depending on how much I need the pins to fold over or not.
I typically run only Super Soft or Soft compounds in electric classes that are limited to 10 min mains and I never run Medium compound tires no matter how hot it gets here in Texas. Super Soft does well with a thicker pin when temps drop below 50°. I might go with a thinner pin soft compound tire as temps approach the 60° range then go back to a thicker pin as temps go above 80°.
Brands like ProLine offer sub-compounds, like M,S,X series which is nice to use the same pin style but only switch sub-compound based on temps.
I currently run James tires and will switch between "Dot Evo" and "Wasper" tires when I'm referring to pin size, and I will use Sticky Kicks Yellow tire sauce if I need to get my tires to soften to a "sub-compound" to get similar effects of what ProLine offers. I don't always sauce my tires, it all depends on what the track is doing for me that day... weather is the biggest factor in my tire/sauce selection.
I have tried pretty much most tread patterns from brands like AKA, JConcepts, ProLine as well as budget brands like James and 6MIK... for the most part they all perform about the same provided you select a proper pin/compound. Each brand is slightly different in compound so on any given day, one brand might do better than another depending on track condition and ambient temps.
It wouldn't hurt to keep a couple different brands of tires to see which is doing better on a given day.
I've grown to trust James soft compound lately but also keep some ProLine M3 and S3 compounds just in case.
The club in my area changes layouts fairly often so it can be a challenge to keep track of which tire is running fast for a given day, on a fresh layout I will run a different compound every qual until I figure out which one is the fastest to run in the mains, but like I said, lately the James Wasper Soft has been my tire of choice for blue groove in my area
As a bonus, James also sells the tires separately to help keep costs down... I will cut off the old treads and re-use the inserts about 2-3 times before they are junked... I'll soak the wheels in acetone for a couple days to dissolve the glue and effortlessly remove the rubber beads and recycle the wheels indefinitely. Over time I might crack/damage a wheel and then I'll elevate the wheel above acetone fumes in a sealed container for a week and that dissolves the glue without damaging the rubber or inserts so I can re-mount the tire on a replacement wheel.
Pretty much all brands of tires will perform comparable and tread pattern selection is close enough to where it comes down to pin selection, then compound.
For dry blue groove, I do better with a block style pin and depending on temperature I might go with a thicker/thinner pin depending on how much I need the pins to fold over or not.
I typically run only Super Soft or Soft compounds in electric classes that are limited to 10 min mains and I never run Medium compound tires no matter how hot it gets here in Texas. Super Soft does well with a thicker pin when temps drop below 50°. I might go with a thinner pin soft compound tire as temps approach the 60° range then go back to a thicker pin as temps go above 80°.
Brands like ProLine offer sub-compounds, like M,S,X series which is nice to use the same pin style but only switch sub-compound based on temps.
I currently run James tires and will switch between "Dot Evo" and "Wasper" tires when I'm referring to pin size, and I will use Sticky Kicks Yellow tire sauce if I need to get my tires to soften to a "sub-compound" to get similar effects of what ProLine offers. I don't always sauce my tires, it all depends on what the track is doing for me that day... weather is the biggest factor in my tire/sauce selection.
I have tried pretty much most tread patterns from brands like AKA, JConcepts, ProLine as well as budget brands like James and 6MIK... for the most part they all perform about the same provided you select a proper pin/compound. Each brand is slightly different in compound so on any given day, one brand might do better than another depending on track condition and ambient temps.
It wouldn't hurt to keep a couple different brands of tires to see which is doing better on a given day.
I've grown to trust James soft compound lately but also keep some ProLine M3 and S3 compounds just in case.
The club in my area changes layouts fairly often so it can be a challenge to keep track of which tire is running fast for a given day, on a fresh layout I will run a different compound every qual until I figure out which one is the fastest to run in the mains, but like I said, lately the James Wasper Soft has been my tire of choice for blue groove in my area
As a bonus, James also sells the tires separately to help keep costs down... I will cut off the old treads and re-use the inserts about 2-3 times before they are junked... I'll soak the wheels in acetone for a couple days to dissolve the glue and effortlessly remove the rubber beads and recycle the wheels indefinitely. Over time I might crack/damage a wheel and then I'll elevate the wheel above acetone fumes in a sealed container for a week and that dissolves the glue without damaging the rubber or inserts so I can re-mount the tire on a replacement wheel.
05-02-2018 | 12:21 PM
#5
I am a new racer, I learned how off pace you can be if you are way off on tire and compound. I thought the track was super slick this weekend, until I saw my competition was GLUED to the track and driving like a maniac. I got destroyed trying to drive smooth and no mistakes.... The leader was off the track several times and still managed to get a lap on me. I couldn't believe how well he was sticking to the track.
05-02-2018 | 08:08 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 59
From: Clayton North Carolina
There is an ideal compound for the most traction. Softer doesn't always equal more traction. A tire that is too hard will slide across the surface more readily. A tire that is too soft will shear rubber and more easily fold the carcass as it slides across the surface and feel 'squirmy'. Temperature and how abrasive the track is plays the largest role in picking a compound. For example, the temp drops 20-30 degrees, go from medium to soft or soft to super soft. Also, if the track goes from having some moisture on the surface to dry/blue groove, go up from super soft to soft or soft to medium. These are just rules of thumb for me. Many companies now have specific wet clay and dry clay compounds.
As far as the "long wear" compounds, they are harder than whatever they claim to be a long wear version of. Watch what the pros do: they use the regular compound (lets say Proline M3 in this case) for the qualifiers and then jump to the X3 long wear for the hour long main. Their lap times are usually off a bit from their qualifiers and that is part of the reason.
Personally, for 8th scale I usually stick to the long wear compounds just to keep the cost reasonable. For tracks with some loose dirt on the surface, I'll have the super soft and soft compounds on hand. For blue groove/high wear tracks, I'll have to soft and medium compounds on hand. Usually the medium get used during the day and then if the race runs long and the mains in the evening after it has cooled off 20 degrees, the softer compound goes on.
As far as the "long wear" compounds, they are harder than whatever they claim to be a long wear version of. Watch what the pros do: they use the regular compound (lets say Proline M3 in this case) for the qualifiers and then jump to the X3 long wear for the hour long main. Their lap times are usually off a bit from their qualifiers and that is part of the reason.
Personally, for 8th scale I usually stick to the long wear compounds just to keep the cost reasonable. For tracks with some loose dirt on the surface, I'll have the super soft and soft compounds on hand. For blue groove/high wear tracks, I'll have to soft and medium compounds on hand. Usually the medium get used during the day and then if the race runs long and the mains in the evening after it has cooled off 20 degrees, the softer compound goes on.
That was a great post, thank you! I can't believe I raced Truggy five years straight never once considering tire compounds... but I have four trophy's 😎
I like the idea of just using long wear, I'll bet the difference is negligible. It may even have a psychological effect knowing you're not going to smoke $50 in one or two races.....?
05-02-2018 | 08:16 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 59
From: Clayton North Carolina
05-02-2018 | 08:57 PM
#8
Thread Starter
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 59
From: Clayton North Carolina
+1 to Krios advice
Pretty much all brands of tires will perform comparable and tread pattern selection is close enough to where it comes down to pin selection, then compound.
For dry blue groove, I do better with a block style pin and depending on temperature I might go with a thicker/thinner pin depending on how much I need the pins to fold over or not.
I typically run only Super Soft or Soft compounds in electric classes that are limited to 10 min mains and I never run Medium compound tires no matter how hot it gets here in Texas. Super Soft does well with a thicker pin when temps drop below 50°. I might go with a thinner pin soft compound tire as temps approach the 60° range then go back to a thicker pin as temps go above 80°.
Brands like ProLine offer sub-compounds, like M,S,X series which is nice to use the same pin style but only switch sub-compound based on temps.
I currently run James tires and will switch between "Dot Evo" and "Wasper" tires when I'm referring to pin size, and I will use Sticky Kicks Yellow tire sauce if I need to get my tires to soften to a "sub-compound" to get similar effects of what ProLine offers. I don't always sauce my tires, it all depends on what the track is doing for me that day... weather is the biggest factor in my tire/sauce selection.
I have tried pretty much most tread patterns from brands like AKA, JConcepts, ProLine as well as budget brands like James and 6MIK... for the most part they all perform about the same provided you select a proper pin/compound. Each brand is slightly different in compound so on any given day, one brand might do better than another depending on track condition and ambient temps.
It wouldn't hurt to keep a couple different brands of tires to see which is doing better on a given day.
I've grown to trust James soft compound lately but also keep some ProLine M3 and S3 compounds just in case.
The club in my area changes layouts fairly often so it can be a challenge to keep track of which tire is running fast for a given day, on a fresh layout I will run a different compound every qual until I figure out which one is the fastest to run in the mains, but like I said, lately the James Wasper Soft has been my tire of choice for blue groove in my area As a bonus, James also sells the tires separately to help keep costs down... I will cut off the old treads and re-use the inserts about 2-3 times before they are junked... I'll soak the wheels in acetone for a couple days to dissolve the glue and effortlessly remove the rubber beads and recycle the wheels indefinitely. Over time I might crack/damage a wheel and then I'll elevate the wheel above acetone fumes in a sealed container for a week and that dissolves the glue without damaging the rubber or inserts so I can re-mount the tire on a replacement wheel.
Pretty much all brands of tires will perform comparable and tread pattern selection is close enough to where it comes down to pin selection, then compound.
For dry blue groove, I do better with a block style pin and depending on temperature I might go with a thicker/thinner pin depending on how much I need the pins to fold over or not.
I typically run only Super Soft or Soft compounds in electric classes that are limited to 10 min mains and I never run Medium compound tires no matter how hot it gets here in Texas. Super Soft does well with a thicker pin when temps drop below 50°. I might go with a thinner pin soft compound tire as temps approach the 60° range then go back to a thicker pin as temps go above 80°.
Brands like ProLine offer sub-compounds, like M,S,X series which is nice to use the same pin style but only switch sub-compound based on temps.
I currently run James tires and will switch between "Dot Evo" and "Wasper" tires when I'm referring to pin size, and I will use Sticky Kicks Yellow tire sauce if I need to get my tires to soften to a "sub-compound" to get similar effects of what ProLine offers. I don't always sauce my tires, it all depends on what the track is doing for me that day... weather is the biggest factor in my tire/sauce selection.
I have tried pretty much most tread patterns from brands like AKA, JConcepts, ProLine as well as budget brands like James and 6MIK... for the most part they all perform about the same provided you select a proper pin/compound. Each brand is slightly different in compound so on any given day, one brand might do better than another depending on track condition and ambient temps.
It wouldn't hurt to keep a couple different brands of tires to see which is doing better on a given day.
I've grown to trust James soft compound lately but also keep some ProLine M3 and S3 compounds just in case.
The club in my area changes layouts fairly often so it can be a challenge to keep track of which tire is running fast for a given day, on a fresh layout I will run a different compound every qual until I figure out which one is the fastest to run in the mains, but like I said, lately the James Wasper Soft has been my tire of choice for blue groove in my area
As a bonus, James also sells the tires separately to help keep costs down... I will cut off the old treads and re-use the inserts about 2-3 times before they are junked... I'll soak the wheels in acetone for a couple days to dissolve the glue and effortlessly remove the rubber beads and recycle the wheels indefinitely. Over time I might crack/damage a wheel and then I'll elevate the wheel above acetone fumes in a sealed container for a week and that dissolves the glue without damaging the rubber or inserts so I can re-mount the tire on a replacement wheel.The Dot Evo and Wasper are the same treads I've decided to try from James (great minds....). I also noticed you could just get the tire without foam, but wondered if they were capable of several tire sets before dying, looks like they are.
When you combine reusing foams AND rims, you've significantly reduced your tire bill that's for sure. I've reused foams before, but haven't tried the acetone "fume" trick yet. In the Truggy days I once attempted to reuse some rims, but it was a mess. I'll do the fume release next time, seems to be a no brainer.
Thanks for all the advice, it'll come in handy this year.
Last edited by XLosiguy; 05-04-2018 at 04:48 AM.
05-03-2018 | 05:10 AM
#9
Thread Starter
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 59
From: Clayton North Carolina
I am a new racer, I learned how off pace you can be if you are way off on tire and compound. I thought the track was super slick this weekend, until I saw my competition was GLUED to the track and driving like a maniac. I got destroyed trying to drive smooth and no mistakes.... The leader was off the track several times and still managed to get a lap on me. I couldn't believe how well he was sticking to the track.
Well, I'd say if you're a new racer and managed to stay within ONE LAP of the leader, your doing very good my friend! (I'd love to know I was within one lap of OUR fastest guy, he's insane!) It sounds like your driving ability is not going to be a problem at all, and you just need to play with treads and compounds to find what you like.
Well done!
05-03-2018 | 07:56 AM
#10
Well thank you my friend! I do have many hours on VRC Pro to help me out. So, I have a set of soft, supersoft, and clay compounds (AKA) that should be here Friday to try out for my 1/10 scale buggy. I am excited to try them out. This past race I used a medium compound AKA tire on both my 1/10 and 1/8 scale, which will probably work better in the middle of the summer instead of now (75f). On my 1/8 scale, I bought two sets of barely used Proline M3 compound tires, but they were mounted incorrectly, which was fine, I did get a great deal on them. Them being mounted incorrectly caused the foams to get destroyed. So I used the vapor method and have been disassembling them. More details below.
I recently tried the vapor method, it worked pretty good, but you do have to leave them in the container for at least 24h, most of the time 48h or even longer worked best. A wide, sealed container works great as you can fit more in there. I purchased a big sealed cupcake tupperware thing as to keep the acetone sealed up full time. I eventually moved over to actually having one side submerged in about 1/2inch of acetone because I found out the foams were destroyed from the incorrect mounting anyways ( foams did not seem affected by the acetone, but, I just wanted the tires). The vapor method for sure won't mess the foams up. If you don't care about the tire, cut them right down the middle and remove the foam and fully submerge the rim and cut tire. The tires will fall off within 24h and the rim should be very clean. Maybe a wipe down with a rag to remove the last bit of glue. It worked awesome for me, especially when the tires could be cut.
Well, I'd say if you're a new racer and managed to stay within ONE LAP of the leader, your doing very good my friend! (I'd love to know I was within one lap of OUR fastest guy, he's insane!) It sounds like your driving ability is not going to be a problem at all, and you just need to play with treads and compounds to find what you like.
Well done!
Well done!
The Dot Evo and Wasper are the same treads I've decided to try from James (great minds....). I also noticed you could just get the tire without foam, but wondered if they were capable of several tire sets before dying, looks like they are.
When you combine reusing foams AND rims, you've significantly reduced your tire bill that's for sure. I've reused foams before, but haven't tried the acetone "fume" trick yet. In the Truggy days I once attempted to reuse some rims, but it was a mess. I'll do the fume release next time, seems to be a no brained.
Thanks for all the advice, it'll come in handy this year.
When you combine reusing foams AND rims, you've significantly reduced your tire bill that's for sure. I've reused foams before, but haven't tried the acetone "fume" trick yet. In the Truggy days I once attempted to reuse some rims, but it was a mess. I'll do the fume release next time, seems to be a no brained.
Thanks for all the advice, it'll come in handy this year.
05-03-2018 | 05:54 PM
#11
Hi mate, tyres are a very tricky and complex subject but in general, compoundvis more important than tread and has a significant effect on lap time. And the optimum compound depends on a number of factors including temperature, surface abrasion, uv and vehicle setup.
Tyres generate grip from 3 sources:
- adhesion (how the tyre material sticks to the track). Typically important for a hard, smooth track. Softer compounds give more adhesion especially in cool conditions. High surface area also helps.
- deformation (how the tyre digs into the track, or how the track digs into the tyre). Soft / wet tracks need a pin shape to dig in to the track. Abrasive tracks need a rubber that lets the track push into the tyre without folding (slightly firmer compounds with more hysteresis help)
- destruction (it takes energy to rip rubber off a tyre). A very abrasive track can generate traction through wear of the tyre, but it's not the ideal way to generate grip.
Generally: cold / low abrasion / hard polished tracks need a very soft compound but dont generally wear tyres. Gooping helps soften a tyre. The tyres will have low wear. Hard tyres will feel very skaty.
Soft tracks need a pin type tyre to dig in. Typically a wet soft track still needs a softer compound to give grip. In the case of carpet and turf the surface is 'soft' but won't rip, so they use very hard tyres with pins to claw into the track.
In hotter / more abrasive conditions a soft tyre will fold around too much, have less grip and wear. Firmer compounds will give better grip and wear, but can take a few laps to get to temperature. The long life compounds ive used (jconcepts) work really well on hot / abrasive tracks and do last a long time in these conditions. When you do test tyres you need to put a few laps down to check you dont have a tyre that is too soft (feels great for a few laps then suddenly feels greasy), good for long runs (takes a lap or two to come in, then feels great) or too hard (feels skaty even after several laps).
The combination of tread pattern and compound work together, but in my experience correct compound / not ideal tread is almost always faster than ideal tread / wrong compound.
hope this helps.
Ray
Edit: it's for 10th scale but i put together a vid explaining some of the tyre choices we make at tracks we run on:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...96568894020064
Tyres generate grip from 3 sources:
- adhesion (how the tyre material sticks to the track). Typically important for a hard, smooth track. Softer compounds give more adhesion especially in cool conditions. High surface area also helps.
- deformation (how the tyre digs into the track, or how the track digs into the tyre). Soft / wet tracks need a pin shape to dig in to the track. Abrasive tracks need a rubber that lets the track push into the tyre without folding (slightly firmer compounds with more hysteresis help)
- destruction (it takes energy to rip rubber off a tyre). A very abrasive track can generate traction through wear of the tyre, but it's not the ideal way to generate grip.
Generally: cold / low abrasion / hard polished tracks need a very soft compound but dont generally wear tyres. Gooping helps soften a tyre. The tyres will have low wear. Hard tyres will feel very skaty.
Soft tracks need a pin type tyre to dig in. Typically a wet soft track still needs a softer compound to give grip. In the case of carpet and turf the surface is 'soft' but won't rip, so they use very hard tyres with pins to claw into the track.
In hotter / more abrasive conditions a soft tyre will fold around too much, have less grip and wear. Firmer compounds will give better grip and wear, but can take a few laps to get to temperature. The long life compounds ive used (jconcepts) work really well on hot / abrasive tracks and do last a long time in these conditions. When you do test tyres you need to put a few laps down to check you dont have a tyre that is too soft (feels great for a few laps then suddenly feels greasy), good for long runs (takes a lap or two to come in, then feels great) or too hard (feels skaty even after several laps).
The combination of tread pattern and compound work together, but in my experience correct compound / not ideal tread is almost always faster than ideal tread / wrong compound.
hope this helps.
Ray
Edit: it's for 10th scale but i put together a vid explaining some of the tyre choices we make at tracks we run on:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...96568894020064
After a 6 yr break, I'm back at rc racing since last summer, and I've yet to really stress over what compound was available in the hobby shop but now that all the tire manufacturers are offering everything from "super-duper crazy insane soft" to "just as soft but with EXTRA LONG WEAR" (which I'm HIGHLY skeptical of), I'm thinking I might better look into this a little more since I'm now racing 1/8 Ebuggy class with its reputation for eating tires.
I do have this one set of Proline (?medium pin, soft I think) and they're still looking good but want to be as economical as possible, while still being competitive.
My local track is typical club-track style well kept and made of North Carolina medium pack clay with a very slight (natural) sand mix, that blue groove's nicely but typically some dust especially outside corners.
Thanks to rctech, I've read that a good way to help your tires go farther is to go harder in compound the more the track blue groove's which I assume is also a good way to maintain a similar "feel" as the track changes / gains grip....(?) I'm thinking example of; track being dusty and very slick but (tire -X- ) is really sticking good, then later in the day the track grooves up nice and those nice (X tires) are now traction rolling and causing you to have to drastically change your driving line and style. (that may be wrong, I'm just throwing it out there).
What I'm hoping to learn here is;
1) just how much faster can a lap be with just a better COMPOUND choice of the same tread?
2) what would be a reason to run harder compounds on an outdoor track (to cut through a dusty track surface or maybe a sugar'ed track?)
3) is saucing/doping worth it at club level 1/8 scale? (guys at my local track have fresh sauce on the tires BETWEEN rounds!)
**** And the big question..... If a tire company makes a "super soft" compound but also offers a "super soft LONG WEAR" (extra life, long life, etc.) can it really be the same sticky soft feel as the "non" long wear version? If it's true, why would you ever run the "regular wear" and buy ($) tires more often?
This is what I'm wrestling with at the moment while trying to decide between the EIGHT (I think) compounds offered by Sweep tires!
I do have this one set of Proline (?medium pin, soft I think) and they're still looking good but want to be as economical as possible, while still being competitive.
My local track is typical club-track style well kept and made of North Carolina medium pack clay with a very slight (natural) sand mix, that blue groove's nicely but typically some dust especially outside corners.
Thanks to rctech, I've read that a good way to help your tires go farther is to go harder in compound the more the track blue groove's which I assume is also a good way to maintain a similar "feel" as the track changes / gains grip....(?) I'm thinking example of; track being dusty and very slick but (tire -X- ) is really sticking good, then later in the day the track grooves up nice and those nice (X tires) are now traction rolling and causing you to have to drastically change your driving line and style. (that may be wrong, I'm just throwing it out there).
What I'm hoping to learn here is;
1) just how much faster can a lap be with just a better COMPOUND choice of the same tread?
2) what would be a reason to run harder compounds on an outdoor track (to cut through a dusty track surface or maybe a sugar'ed track?)
3) is saucing/doping worth it at club level 1/8 scale? (guys at my local track have fresh sauce on the tires BETWEEN rounds!)
**** And the big question..... If a tire company makes a "super soft" compound but also offers a "super soft LONG WEAR" (extra life, long life, etc.) can it really be the same sticky soft feel as the "non" long wear version? If it's true, why would you ever run the "regular wear" and buy ($) tires more often?
This is what I'm wrestling with at the moment while trying to decide between the EIGHT (I think) compounds offered by Sweep tires!
Last edited by ray_munday; 05-03-2018 at 11:23 PM.
05-04-2018 | 05:05 AM
#12
Thread Starter
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 59
From: Clayton North Carolina
Hi mate, tyres are a very tricky and complex subject but in general, compoundvis more important than tread and has a significant effect on lap time. And the optimum compound depends on a number of factors including temperature, surface abrasion, uv and vehicle setup.
Tyres generate grip from 3 sources:
- adhesion (how the tyre material sticks to the track). Typically important for a hard, smooth track. Softer compounds give more adhesion especially in cool conditions. High surface area also helps.
- deformation (how the tyre digs into the track, or how the track digs into the tyre). Soft / wet tracks need a pin shape to dig in to the track. Abrasive tracks need a rubber that lets the track push into the tyre without folding (slightly firmer compounds with more hysteresis help)
- destruction (it takes energy to rip rubber off a tyre). A very abrasive track can generate traction through wear of the tyre, but it's not the ideal way to generate grip.
Generally: cold / low abrasion / hard polished tracks need a very soft compound but dont generally wear tyres. Gooping helps soften a tyre. The tyres will have low wear. Hard tyres will feel very skaty.
Soft tracks need a pin type tyre to dig in. Typically a wet soft track still needs a softer compound to give grip. In the case of carpet and turf the surface is 'soft' but won't rip, so they use very hard tyres with pins to claw into the track.
In hotter / more abrasive conditions a soft tyre will fold around too much, have less grip and wear. Firmer compounds will give better grip and wear, but can take a few laps to get to temperature. The long life compounds ive used (jconcepts) work really well on hot / abrasive tracks and do last a long time in these conditions. When you do test tyres you need to put a few laps down to check you dont have a tyre that is too soft (feels great for a few laps then suddenly feels greasy), good for long runs (takes a lap or two to come in, then feels great) or too hard (feels skaty even after several laps).
The combination of tread pattern and compound work together, but in my experience correct compound / not ideal tread is almost always faster than ideal tread / wrong compound.
hope this helps.
Ray
Edit: it's for 10th scale but i put together a vid explaining some of the tyre choices we make at tracks we run on:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...96568894020064
Tyres generate grip from 3 sources:
- adhesion (how the tyre material sticks to the track). Typically important for a hard, smooth track. Softer compounds give more adhesion especially in cool conditions. High surface area also helps.
- deformation (how the tyre digs into the track, or how the track digs into the tyre). Soft / wet tracks need a pin shape to dig in to the track. Abrasive tracks need a rubber that lets the track push into the tyre without folding (slightly firmer compounds with more hysteresis help)
- destruction (it takes energy to rip rubber off a tyre). A very abrasive track can generate traction through wear of the tyre, but it's not the ideal way to generate grip.
Generally: cold / low abrasion / hard polished tracks need a very soft compound but dont generally wear tyres. Gooping helps soften a tyre. The tyres will have low wear. Hard tyres will feel very skaty.
Soft tracks need a pin type tyre to dig in. Typically a wet soft track still needs a softer compound to give grip. In the case of carpet and turf the surface is 'soft' but won't rip, so they use very hard tyres with pins to claw into the track.
In hotter / more abrasive conditions a soft tyre will fold around too much, have less grip and wear. Firmer compounds will give better grip and wear, but can take a few laps to get to temperature. The long life compounds ive used (jconcepts) work really well on hot / abrasive tracks and do last a long time in these conditions. When you do test tyres you need to put a few laps down to check you dont have a tyre that is too soft (feels great for a few laps then suddenly feels greasy), good for long runs (takes a lap or two to come in, then feels great) or too hard (feels skaty even after several laps).
The combination of tread pattern and compound work together, but in my experience correct compound / not ideal tread is almost always faster than ideal tread / wrong compound.
hope this helps.
Ray
Edit: it's for 10th scale but i put together a vid explaining some of the tyre choices we make at tracks we run on:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...96568894020064
YES! This is EXACTLY what I was looking for!
I especially like the last part where you gave the analysis of a given tire feeling good, then falling off, or not so good for the first couple laps, then being great from them on, etc. This is very valuable information when you can't afford to up buy up every possible tread/compound just for testing.
I'm sending your post to my wife at her work place and have her print and laminate it, so I'll have it for reference at the track during the next few weeks of practice and testing tires, until I have a good idea of just what I need for the conditions of a given race day. Thanks again!
05-04-2018 | 02:29 PM
#14
YES! This is EXACTLY what I was looking for!
I especially like the last part where you gave the analysis of a given tire feeling good, then falling off, or not so good for the first couple laps, then being great from them on, etc. This is very valuable information when you can't afford to up buy up every possible tread/compound just for testing.
I'm sending your post to my wife at her work place and have her print and laminate it, so I'll have it for reference at the track during the next few weeks of practice and testing tires, until I have a good idea of just what I need for the conditions of a given race day. Thanks again!
I especially like the last part where you gave the analysis of a given tire feeling good, then falling off, or not so good for the first couple laps, then being great from them on, etc. This is very valuable information when you can't afford to up buy up every possible tread/compound just for testing.
I'm sending your post to my wife at her work place and have her print and laminate it, so I'll have it for reference at the track during the next few weeks of practice and testing tires, until I have a good idea of just what I need for the conditions of a given race day. Thanks again!
https://www.facebook.com/AskRayMundayRC/
I also put together a tyre chart a few years ago (for 1/10) showing the conditions i use each tyre in. It needs updating for newer treads but the direction is still the same.
Ask Ray Munday - JConcepts, Reedy, Associated Aussie Support Thread
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