1/10th Off-road. Dirt, Carpet, or Astro?
04-21-2016, 05:04 AM
#31
Im not sure about many others but i never started racing as you are putting it "Offroad" because of the dirt characteristic. But more for the jumps, wheelies and open wheel racing.
Track grooming is getting a little out of hand as Milza mentioned,
and as far as i know in Melbourne its often also left to a very few die hards, and once there gone it will most likely turn to S**t!
Everyone is expecting more and more grip, and i saw this when i raced onroad. People get spoiled at big events then expect it all the time, and if or when a track isnt producing what racers want, then they move elsewhere.
At the end of the day we tend to get dictated by what is happening overseas, so once they stop producing tyres and cars suited to lower grip conditions there will be no choice but to adapt.
Track grooming is getting a little out of hand as Milza mentioned,
and as far as i know in Melbourne its often also left to a very few die hards, and once there gone it will most likely turn to S**t!
Everyone is expecting more and more grip, and i saw this when i raced onroad. People get spoiled at big events then expect it all the time, and if or when a track isnt producing what racers want, then they move elsewhere.
At the end of the day we tend to get dictated by what is happening overseas, so once they stop producing tyres and cars suited to lower grip conditions there will be no choice but to adapt.
04-21-2016, 05:47 PM
#32
I started RC in offroad almost 20yrs ago (yikes!) at the Albion park track, so to me Offroad racing should be on dirt. If the track starts to break up/blue groove during the day, deal with it.
I still remember people having a good old whinge because the track had some ruts, ummmm, this is offroad racing, the track is meant to be rough, haha.
I still remember people having a good old whinge because the track had some ruts, ummmm, this is offroad racing, the track is meant to be rough, haha.
04-21-2016, 07:13 PM
#33
Tech Apprentice
Everything in life is progressive, if it wasn't we'd still be running silver can and ni-cads.
04-21-2016, 07:18 PM
#34
I can't see clay disappearing especially when there's tracks like we currently have in Victoria. What's good about Knox's track is it's traction, smooth surface, free flowing, great jumps and challenging but drive-able for all nature. BUT It's covered in carpet on non racing days to protect it and without that it will deteriorate over time without the proper maintenance as will all tracks. I practice on the carpet and still enjoy it which led me to wonder what a lower maintenance track like astro would be like....Outdoors. Whether good or bad it seems like the change has already started around the world. Through the years the resistance to change and evolution has been fruitless and old school simply gets left behind as better ideas are taken up and improvements are made. That is the nature of things. No one will need to "do" anything as over time the RC community will demand to be up to date and things will change as has the nature of clay tracks improved dramatically even over the short four years I have been in RC. I do not think bad ideas will be taken up long term and should be objected to but this is not one of them, I am pretty sure but only time will tell.
04-21-2016, 08:08 PM
#35
But, personally it would be a shame to see dirt tracks phase out. Racing off road on carpet/astro doesnt really apeal to me. I've never understood having glass smooth off road tracks.
Ease of maintenance with carpet/astro I can understand though.
04-21-2016, 09:27 PM
#36
Progress without reference to what makes a thing great just results in that thing dying.
The focus and demand for ultra-high grip smooth tracks has resulted in a disconnect between major events and clubs. As always sales of buggies and trucks to bashers are many orders of magnitude greater than race car sales. Bashers don't race on groomed surfaces, they drive in their neighbour's yard or down at the park. The increasing refinement of racing tracks has resulted in racing diverging from what bashers are doing. This is one of the reasons for lower numbers/fewer clubs than in the past – a failure to appeal to bashers and bring them across to racing.
If we want the sport to have a future the answer lies in rediscovering our roots. Racing on dirt and grass will enable us to reconnect with the bashers and what they love about running their buggies and trucks. Otherwise what we have in continually refining high grip offroad tracks is like specialised dog breeding where you breed in recessive genes so much that the organism becomes prone to disease.
The focus and demand for ultra-high grip smooth tracks has resulted in a disconnect between major events and clubs. As always sales of buggies and trucks to bashers are many orders of magnitude greater than race car sales. Bashers don't race on groomed surfaces, they drive in their neighbour's yard or down at the park. The increasing refinement of racing tracks has resulted in racing diverging from what bashers are doing. This is one of the reasons for lower numbers/fewer clubs than in the past – a failure to appeal to bashers and bring them across to racing.
If we want the sport to have a future the answer lies in rediscovering our roots. Racing on dirt and grass will enable us to reconnect with the bashers and what they love about running their buggies and trucks. Otherwise what we have in continually refining high grip offroad tracks is like specialised dog breeding where you breed in recessive genes so much that the organism becomes prone to disease.
04-22-2016, 02:27 AM
#37
To the OP, I think they already answered the question.
Everyone's experience is different but I'll speak for myself who's been doing carpet for the last half year. I started Rc in early 2014 at my local dirt off road track with an entry Tamiya. A year later moved onto 4wd mod buggy. Gave it a good 100 cycles in outdoor and loved it. Then came a point where I wanted a bigger challenge. I got over bashing, and the timing for racing outdoors was out of the question, took too much of the day. We then had our first child and thought racing indoors on a Friday night was perfect, baby is sleeping and I get to race Rc during "off" hours.
Cut a long story short I think the attraction to indoor was already mentioned by the OP. The facilities at an indoor track, power (even on non race nights), pit tables, general feel and ability to get to know everyone.
Other bonuses include not having to churn through outdoor tyres, indoor fees make this cheaper where indoor tyres last longer. No need to worry about weather
Though I don't think outdoor will be overtaken by indoor racing as mentioned earlier such as high rent costs etc.
Everyone's experience is different but I'll speak for myself who's been doing carpet for the last half year. I started Rc in early 2014 at my local dirt off road track with an entry Tamiya. A year later moved onto 4wd mod buggy. Gave it a good 100 cycles in outdoor and loved it. Then came a point where I wanted a bigger challenge. I got over bashing, and the timing for racing outdoors was out of the question, took too much of the day. We then had our first child and thought racing indoors on a Friday night was perfect, baby is sleeping and I get to race Rc during "off" hours.
Cut a long story short I think the attraction to indoor was already mentioned by the OP. The facilities at an indoor track, power (even on non race nights), pit tables, general feel and ability to get to know everyone.
Other bonuses include not having to churn through outdoor tyres, indoor fees make this cheaper where indoor tyres last longer. No need to worry about weather
Though I don't think outdoor will be overtaken by indoor racing as mentioned earlier such as high rent costs etc.
04-22-2016, 06:02 PM
#39
Tech Apprentice
Exactly, a consistent low maintenance track that provides driver's a similar surface all year round.
04-22-2016, 07:42 PM
#41
I asked our club committee if we should put astro/ carpet over our clay track before recent rebuild.
Reasons: Less track maintenance. Less tyre wear.
Rebuilding a clay track costs time and money.
I could get lots of used astro for free.
Many beginners complained to me of the cost of having to run a new set of tyres each race day. If you have 1-2 kids and yourself racing then tyre bill for day out is getting around $50. Plus race entries.
The surface would be far from smooth with existing jumps etc. along with the natural ruts, dips etc. of the clay surface. Then you would get the accumulation of dust etc. with time. Not sure how much grip this would be.
Carpet tyres seem to wear much less. I have not raced on carpet but have run many hours of practise at local indoor carpet track and only bought one set of fronts and one set of rears (now worn out).
Getting help to prep and repair and maintain a track is very difficult.
It was given consideration but was maybe too early for such a drastic change.
Thommo
Reasons: Less track maintenance. Less tyre wear.
Rebuilding a clay track costs time and money.
I could get lots of used astro for free.
Many beginners complained to me of the cost of having to run a new set of tyres each race day. If you have 1-2 kids and yourself racing then tyre bill for day out is getting around $50. Plus race entries.
The surface would be far from smooth with existing jumps etc. along with the natural ruts, dips etc. of the clay surface. Then you would get the accumulation of dust etc. with time. Not sure how much grip this would be.
Carpet tyres seem to wear much less. I have not raced on carpet but have run many hours of practise at local indoor carpet track and only bought one set of fronts and one set of rears (now worn out).
Getting help to prep and repair and maintain a track is very difficult.
It was given consideration but was maybe too early for such a drastic change.
Thommo
04-22-2016, 09:38 PM
#42
A consistent low maintenance track is what you get from onroad racing. If you race on carpet tyre wear is non-existant too. If those are the things you're looking for, why not race onroad?
There's the added advantage that if you're looking to race in a comfortable indoor environment a rollout carpet track will provide you with a satisfying layout in a smaller area if you race 12th scale.
It's true the UK has some outdoor astro tracks. They exist because the appalling weather conditions in the UK make dirt running really difficult. They also do a lot of racing on grass in the UK – which has most of the advantages you're asking for from astro but does actually develop like a proper offroad surface. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbHH9DUwjIA It also has the advantage of being easier to come to grips with for a beginner and being very low outlay.
The same weather conditions that result in some outdoor astro tracks in the UK, also produce ~100 indoor rollout carpet clubs. The 12th GT class is booming in the UK right now, some there even reckon it's saved RC from a slow decline in the UK.
The point is there are already track conditions (grass) and classes (indoor onroad classes) that do everything you guys are saying you want from offroad astro, and do it better. Given that, why insist on something that doesn't have what a large portion of offroad racers say is fundamental to their enjoyment of the discipline?
There's the added advantage that if you're looking to race in a comfortable indoor environment a rollout carpet track will provide you with a satisfying layout in a smaller area if you race 12th scale.
It's true the UK has some outdoor astro tracks. They exist because the appalling weather conditions in the UK make dirt running really difficult. They also do a lot of racing on grass in the UK – which has most of the advantages you're asking for from astro but does actually develop like a proper offroad surface. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbHH9DUwjIA It also has the advantage of being easier to come to grips with for a beginner and being very low outlay.
The same weather conditions that result in some outdoor astro tracks in the UK, also produce ~100 indoor rollout carpet clubs. The 12th GT class is booming in the UK right now, some there even reckon it's saved RC from a slow decline in the UK.
The point is there are already track conditions (grass) and classes (indoor onroad classes) that do everything you guys are saying you want from offroad astro, and do it better. Given that, why insist on something that doesn't have what a large portion of offroad racers say is fundamental to their enjoyment of the discipline?
04-22-2016, 10:34 PM
#43
Tech Adept
iTrader: (13)
A consistent low maintenance track is what you get from onroad racing. If you race on carpet tyre wear is non-existant too. If those are the things you're looking for, why not race onroad?
There's the added advantage that if you're looking to race in a comfortable indoor environment a rollout carpet track will provide you with a satisfying layout in a smaller area if you race 12th scale.
It's true the UK has some outdoor astro tracks. They exist because the appalling weather conditions in the UK make dirt running really difficult. They also do a lot of racing on grass in the UK – which has most of the advantages you're asking for from astro but does actually develop like a proper offroad surface. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbHH9DUwjIA It also has the advantage of being easier to come to grips with for a beginner and being very low outlay.
The same weather conditions that result in some outdoor astro tracks in the UK, also produce ~100 indoor rollout carpet clubs. The 12th GT class is booming in the UK right now, some there even reckon it's saved RC from a slow decline in the UK.
The point is there are already track conditions (grass) and classes (indoor onroad classes) that do everything you guys are saying you want from offroad astro, and do it better. Given that, why insist on something that doesn't have what a large portion of offroad racers say is fundamental to their enjoyment of the discipline?
There's the added advantage that if you're looking to race in a comfortable indoor environment a rollout carpet track will provide you with a satisfying layout in a smaller area if you race 12th scale.
It's true the UK has some outdoor astro tracks. They exist because the appalling weather conditions in the UK make dirt running really difficult. They also do a lot of racing on grass in the UK – which has most of the advantages you're asking for from astro but does actually develop like a proper offroad surface. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbHH9DUwjIA It also has the advantage of being easier to come to grips with for a beginner and being very low outlay.
The same weather conditions that result in some outdoor astro tracks in the UK, also produce ~100 indoor rollout carpet clubs. The 12th GT class is booming in the UK right now, some there even reckon it's saved RC from a slow decline in the UK.
The point is there are already track conditions (grass) and classes (indoor onroad classes) that do everything you guys are saying you want from offroad astro, and do it better. Given that, why insist on something that doesn't have what a large portion of offroad racers say is fundamental to their enjoyment of the discipline?
1. You can't keep the track open for practice if you intend on keeping the same layout as the tyres that work best destroy it over a weekend. It's all well and good if the layout is changed on a weekly basis and you have enough grassed area to rotate track area around, allowing for the used areas to recover - You'd probably need, as an absolute minimum, an area four times the area of the track to allow the grass to recover.
2. For the above reason you almost certainly need council land and the track marking materials and obstacles can't be left out during the week for practice either.
3. drainage can be poor, so if it rains too much, even a day or so prior to a race, it can stop the event. Astro, if installed well, can withstand a reasonable shower and be ready for racing in minutes. It's slippery when wet and as it drys through the day the grip comes up. Plenty of challenge in terms of tuning and driving.
If you convert an existing facility to Astro, then you don't have the wear issue, so people can practice as much as they like and you can make it adaptable, so layouts can change more easily should the club wish (all within the original track area). Major obstacles have to stay but it still keeps the racing fresh. You could even have say 2 or 3 layouts that are rotated on a race meeting by race meeting basis. This would help the club member adapt to new layouts when racing elsewhere.
04-22-2016, 11:07 PM
#44
Build it and they will come!
Even a half track just to trial it out!
How many meets do we lose due to being rained out....heaps!
Bump up membership costs to cover the expense of Astro. If I had a track or two I could practice on which reflects race day conditions, I will gladly pay 10 fold. (Currently both melb tracks carpet entire track non race days)
Why not race onroad as some suggest? Jumps are fun
To everyone else with opposing comments, you simply won't understand unless you live in Melbourne.
Even a half track just to trial it out!
How many meets do we lose due to being rained out....heaps!
Bump up membership costs to cover the expense of Astro. If I had a track or two I could practice on which reflects race day conditions, I will gladly pay 10 fold. (Currently both melb tracks carpet entire track non race days)
Why not race onroad as some suggest? Jumps are fun
To everyone else with opposing comments, you simply won't understand unless you live in Melbourne.
04-22-2016, 11:57 PM
#45
I raced on grass in the late 80's and early 90's in the summer in the uk. It was great but there are a few issues:
1. You can't keep the track open for practice if you intend on keeping the same layout as the tyres that work best destroy it over a weekend. It's all well and good if the layout is changed on a weekly basis and you have enough grassed area to rotate track area around, allowing for the used areas to recover - You'd probably need, as an absolute minimum, an area four times the area of the track to allow the grass to recover.
2. For the above reason you almost certainly need council land and the track marking materials and obstacles can't be left out during the week for practice either.
3. drainage can be poor, so if it rains too much, even a day or so prior to a race, it can stop the event. Astro, if installed well, can withstand a reasonable shower and be ready for racing in minutes. It's slippery when wet and as it drys through the day the grip comes up. Plenty of challenge in terms of tuning and driving.
If you convert an existing facility to Astro, then you don't have the wear issue, so people can practice as much as they like and you can make it adaptable, so layouts can change more easily should the club wish (all within the original track area). Major obstacles have to stay but it still keeps the racing fresh. You could even have say 2 or 3 layouts that are rotated on a race meeting by race meeting basis. This would help the club member adapt to new layouts when racing elsewhere.
1. You can't keep the track open for practice if you intend on keeping the same layout as the tyres that work best destroy it over a weekend. It's all well and good if the layout is changed on a weekly basis and you have enough grassed area to rotate track area around, allowing for the used areas to recover - You'd probably need, as an absolute minimum, an area four times the area of the track to allow the grass to recover.
2. For the above reason you almost certainly need council land and the track marking materials and obstacles can't be left out during the week for practice either.
3. drainage can be poor, so if it rains too much, even a day or so prior to a race, it can stop the event. Astro, if installed well, can withstand a reasonable shower and be ready for racing in minutes. It's slippery when wet and as it drys through the day the grip comes up. Plenty of challenge in terms of tuning and driving.
If you convert an existing facility to Astro, then you don't have the wear issue, so people can practice as much as they like and you can make it adaptable, so layouts can change more easily should the club wish (all within the original track area). Major obstacles have to stay but it still keeps the racing fresh. You could even have say 2 or 3 layouts that are rotated on a race meeting by race meeting basis. This would help the club member adapt to new layouts when racing elsewhere.