View Poll Results: Do we need a Controlled Motor/ESC for Racing?
Yes for 21.5 Only
30
15.31%
Yes for 13.5 Only
3
1.53%
Yes for 21.5 and 13.5
76
38.78%
No, leave it open and as it is.
59
30.10%
I have no opinion
5
2.55%
I'm sponsored / own a store, my wallet says NO!
2
1.02%
13.5 Motor Only
6
3.06%
21.5 Motor Only
15
7.65%
Voters: 196. You may not vote on this poll
Controlled Motor and Gearing for Stock Classes
10-19-2015, 11:42 PM
#346
Desanctioning 21.5 class where a lot of people have already shelled out significant $$ isn't going to be popular.
From where I see it Mod TC is dying (or dead) we have problems getting new people in the main opposition to a controlled motor / esc for 13.5 or 21.5 is distributorship and that with so many snouts in the rc trough If company A gets the deal then you have companies B and C bad mouthing the whole process and trying to push racers away from electric and toward Nitro because that retains their customer and their profit margin.
So why not introduce 25.5 as a CONTROLLED MOTOR sanctioned class aimed at beginners? The motors are out there (US VTA) and the uptake here hasn't been such that it will put a lot of people out. I race 21.5 I don't consider myself a new racer but I have never won anything in that class, as with state titles etc some sponsored mod drivers usually borrow a car and run only the trophy events essentially hijacking the class. I don't run stock because I'm old and with night racing I struggle to follow the car around the track at it's size. GTe I am fine as it's a bit bigger.
Control the classes as well by stopping Charlie trophy hunter from screwing the field up for the rest of us that to me is a bigger problem
From where I see it Mod TC is dying (or dead) we have problems getting new people in the main opposition to a controlled motor / esc for 13.5 or 21.5 is distributorship and that with so many snouts in the rc trough If company A gets the deal then you have companies B and C bad mouthing the whole process and trying to push racers away from electric and toward Nitro because that retains their customer and their profit margin.
So why not introduce 25.5 as a CONTROLLED MOTOR sanctioned class aimed at beginners? The motors are out there (US VTA) and the uptake here hasn't been such that it will put a lot of people out. I race 21.5 I don't consider myself a new racer but I have never won anything in that class, as with state titles etc some sponsored mod drivers usually borrow a car and run only the trophy events essentially hijacking the class. I don't run stock because I'm old and with night racing I struggle to follow the car around the track at it's size. GTe I am fine as it's a bit bigger.
Control the classes as well by stopping Charlie trophy hunter from screwing the field up for the rest of us that to me is a bigger problem
Bradd Vercoe did some testing with a 25.5 a few years back. He was rather despondent when he discovered the performance was in fact very similar to 21.5. So maybe 25.5 would be better, or maybe something radical like 1S racing with a 13.5 makes more sense for the slowest class. Something to think about anyway.
10-19-2015, 11:54 PM
#347
21.5 has gotten a lot faster in the last few yrs, I think there would be a wider gap now if you get people accustomed to 1s racing then it's a whole new set of batteries at least to move up with 25.5 There isn't that issue.
As for too many classes? Still FAR less than off road
2wd Stock
2wd Mod
4wd Stock
4wd Mod
Truck
2wd SCT
4wd SCT
1/8 Light
Vintage
etc etc
I heard a suggestion of a local store owner (employee) that for novice it should be entirely controlled (they used an example of a TC4 Club RTR which they of course happened to sell note my cynicism here) My son is 6 and wants to race and at the moment I have him in a 21.5 but I think that's a bit quick so have turned down his EPA. 25.5 seems perfect to me. We don't step on any toes it gives new drivers a set guideline without being too overbearing and it maintains the status quo in the other classes.
As for too many classes? Still FAR less than off road
2wd Stock
2wd Mod
4wd Stock
4wd Mod
Truck
2wd SCT
4wd SCT
1/8 Light
Vintage
etc etc
I heard a suggestion of a local store owner (employee) that for novice it should be entirely controlled (they used an example of a TC4 Club RTR which they of course happened to sell note my cynicism here) My son is 6 and wants to race and at the moment I have him in a 21.5 but I think that's a bit quick so have turned down his EPA. 25.5 seems perfect to me. We don't step on any toes it gives new drivers a set guideline without being too overbearing and it maintains the status quo in the other classes.
10-19-2015, 11:59 PM
#348
Well, that is what I said would happen originally, so I'm not too surprised. You're the type of person who will change their mind if the evidence is there.
The fix for this is fairly simple:
1. A preamble needs to be added to the Sportsman TC rule set that outlines that the idea of the class is to be a learning ground for new racers with the aim of progressing them to Stock where the majority should race.
2. We change the rules to have the class always offered at sanctioned events as a support class. Specify that it is not to be called a National/State Championship, but instead the 'Sportsman Cup supporting [insert sanctioned event name here]'
That would be the first thing I'd do.
The fix for this is fairly simple:
1. A preamble needs to be added to the Sportsman TC rule set that outlines that the idea of the class is to be a learning ground for new racers with the aim of progressing them to Stock where the majority should race.
2. We change the rules to have the class always offered at sanctioned events as a support class. Specify that it is not to be called a National/State Championship, but instead the 'Sportsman Cup supporting [insert sanctioned event name here]'
That would be the first thing I'd do.
While I consider myself a competitive 21.5 driver I can't ever see myself moving up to stock because, its something that I can not afford & I don't have the reflex's reqired. (Age catching up with me)
Maybe the other suggestion of having a true novice class is a more viable option for clubs and drivers, although there is the risk of diluting the field with too many classes.
It is however good to see the rational discussion going on, with people voicing their thoughts & opinions on how to possibly improve the hobby and attendance numbers.
Cheers
Rob
10-20-2015, 12:14 AM
#349
+1 for the 25.5 entry level class. Perfect for beginners and people entering the sport. Then all they need to progress to 21.5 is the motor. Speedy would still do the job fine when moving up. I race 21.5 because all my close friends race that class. Maybe I should move to stock but then I don't think I would have as much fun as when I'm racing with my mates cause in the end that's why I do the hobby.
So, which way so we roll on this? Leave it how it is and see how things go, or introduce other classes/ideas hoping that they will have a positive outcome?
10-20-2015, 12:15 AM
#350
1S could be accomplished fairly cheaply by specifying the use of half a saddle type 2S pack. Then all you have to do is put the saddle back together again to go 2S racing. If you keep the motor the same between the 1S and 2S classes then progression cost is zero, which would be a huge positive.
The only real issue for me is the Voltage Booster. They only cost $8, but they're fiddly to install which is not really a plus for a beginner class.
It's a slightly different environment in offroad though. People there typically race 2WD Buggy plus either 4WD or Truck. Adding an extra TC class dilutes your pool of TC drivers. Whereas adding an extra novelty class offroad reduces the participation in people's secondary classes. 2WD is always strong in large part because there are only two motor classes: Mod and Stock.
10-20-2015, 12:16 AM
#351
I wouldn't state Mod TC is dead... in fact the Nationals currently has 23 entrants in Mod, 13.5 has 24, and 21.5 has 19. That's a suprising spread really, as you would expect the stock classes (note the plural) to have a far larger number of entrants...
10-20-2015, 12:44 AM
#352
It's a slightly different environment in offroad though. People there typically race 2WD Buggy plus either 4WD or Truck. Adding an extra TC class dilutes your pool of TC drivers. Whereas adding an extra novelty class offroad reduces the participation in people's secondary classes. 2WD is always strong in large part because there are only two motor classes: Mod and Stock.
One of our members suggested novices in on road using a 1 cell battery until they can progress to 2 cell.
As for esc's to be able to do this, I've read that some (not all) can do this without the need of a voltage regulator. There's a similar discussion going on in the US F1 thread about what motor/battery combinations should be used, they are also looking at leaving it as 2 cell 21.5, or 2cell 25.5 or 1 cell 13.5.
10-20-2015, 01:23 AM
#353
Yes its true that the numbers for Mod and stock at the nationals are quite high but, lets look at these numbers at a club level. Isn't this what this discussion is all about. In regards to the draining of the driver pool I do not believe this is true. The reason for adding the extra class would be to encourage NEW drivers (not pull drivers back out of current classes).
10-20-2015, 03:59 AM
#355
I was lucky enough to test a few months ago the new hobbywing fixed timing 21.5 juststock motor and it was slower by about 0.5s - 0.8s a lap at castle hill compared to the quick 21.5s. And this was me trying my hardest to push it to its limit.
Everyone is assuming we choose a controlled motor that is equivalent to the latest and greatest motors. And if we have a min fdr as well , this has slowed our 13.5 club stick class by a similar amount.
Remember we have been technology creeping in speed for some time now.
Just saying...
Everyone is assuming we choose a controlled motor that is equivalent to the latest and greatest motors. And if we have a min fdr as well , this has slowed our 13.5 club stick class by a similar amount.
Remember we have been technology creeping in speed for some time now.
Just saying...
10-20-2015, 02:24 PM
#356
I was lucky enough to test a few months ago the new hobbywing fixed timing 21.5 juststock motor and it was slower by about 0.5s - 0.8s a lap at castle hill compared to the quick 21.5s. And this was me trying my hardest to push it to its limit.
Everyone is assuming we choose a controlled motor that is equivalent to the latest and greatest motors. And if we have a min fdr as well , this has slowed our 13.5 club stick class by a similar amount.
Remember we have been technology creeping in speed for some time now.
Just saying...
Everyone is assuming we choose a controlled motor that is equivalent to the latest and greatest motors. And if we have a min fdr as well , this has slowed our 13.5 club stick class by a similar amount.
Remember we have been technology creeping in speed for some time now.
Just saying...
The ETS 13.5 class is actually pretty slow, in comparison to an open reg, more than anything because of the FDR limits in place. This also stops motors being run to the ragged edge of temperature, meaning they last longer as well... so a win win.
IMO, any control system would need to be implemented with a control/limited FDR (but not a spec one... a "down too" limit), a locked timing motor, as well as a unit limit for sanctioned events, to remove the possibility of people pushing control units to the max in an effort to eek more performance. As you guys have proved at the Hill, these are certainly not insurmountable issues, and make a fair bit of sense to also slow the Stock classes down, as well as make it an easier entry point for beginners...
"ok, you need that ESC, that motor, this pinion and spur, and your all set.. go have fun
"
10-20-2015, 08:11 PM
#357
A unit limit reduces the need for an FDR limit. This may be the way offroad goes, where motors are cooked less often. The unit limit should be 2 IMO. Anyone can be unlucky once. Twice in 9 races is poor management.
A unit limit is fairly easy to enforce as well. You simply have your first motor marked the same way as the chassis at the start of the event. If you need a second one, then you take that to scrutineering and they mark it the same way as the other, and put a mark against your name indicating you've reached your limit.
A unit limit is fairly easy to enforce as well. You simply have your first motor marked the same way as the chassis at the start of the event. If you need a second one, then you take that to scrutineering and they mark it the same way as the other, and put a mark against your name indicating you've reached your limit.
