NickM

iTrader: (11)

I'm willing to concede the lipo argument for now; there simply hasn't been enough people supporting it (and you all know how keen I am for everyone to run them). I believe there is an advantage in running a lipo pack
/me shrugs into flame suit, preparing for the barrage of abuse from people I beat using a lipo (not that I ever ran one in a points score event).

However, I believe that SMA is a progressive club, and we should join the other clubs that have accepted brushless 13.5 motors in stock. It seems to me that we (the broader Australian rc community) have an unprecedented window of opportunity to assist the growth of our sport by embracing the newer technology.

We now I feel are approaching critical mass with this, and should have an informed debate about it. This is our opportunity, and we should take it. Our sport has lost numbers in the last 12 months - let's help reverse that trend, shall we?

I offer some arguments for accepting these motors:

1. The learned Matt Dall's comparison of stock brushed vs brushless at the SMA Championship, where he clearly felt brushed was faster on our track.

2. The precedent of combined stock at the Summernats. I wasn't there, but there were two take-home messages I picked up from reading the forums: a) a brushed motor won, and b) there was a large number of brushless entries, showing the level of interest - a heap of ppl (including yours truly) have spent their hard-earned on a motor that's not yet legal to run. I see this as implicit support for change. Nothing speaks louder than spent personal $$.

3. The removal of the 'black art' of motor tuning that is so off-putting to the less experienced driver (I certainly remember being surprised to discover that my expensive new stock motor was only good for one race meet! My first 540 was still great; what's the deal here?? Extortion by the motor companies?? Come to think of it, I've never changed that opinion... The monopoly incumbent is making a killing from us. Why do we continue to blindly accept it??)
So we just remove the requirement for being a motor guru: comm lathe expert, brushes, spring weights etc etc.

4. A good brushed is still a little quicker, so you old-skool comm-cutting brush-cutting junkies are still rewarded for the extra effort.

5. I can sell my comm lathe, my ten packs of brushes, packs of springs, and retire my six CO27s to go and socialise with all the already-retired Monster Stocks. Clearly BL is more cost effective.

5. Less spanner time - more socialising time That's also gotta be good for the sport.

It seems to be a no-brainer to me.

My $0.02

ElectricConvert

Make that 4. I've recently joined the club and I will run Novak 13.5 and Orion 3200's lipos in my car points or no points. It will be of legal weight if not slightly over.

The uptake for the BL/Lipo technology will be gradual as hobbyists replace their equipment over time. All electric runners will at some point have to decide between old school or bleeding edge technology.

See the light, step into the future...

Popeye

iTrader: (1)

I never realised how hard it could be to find a hole, place lipo(orion 3200mAh hard case). take 3mm spacers from mini parts tree place on end of battery holder, inside kwik release... whats illegal about that? Z-MANN with this your mini would still be legal...?...

black-knight

Personally id be happy to see 13.5 BL Stock at SMA, racers with these systems do ened up with alot more spare time that can be spent on car setup rather than motor prep etc.

I believe the 13.5 is faster on any track with good driving and a good car, not sure what brushed runners think of this and if they would like to battle BL week in week out?.

Z-Mann

as long its 1300grams(tcs rules)and no cutting of chassis it shouldnt be a problem but its not up to me to allow lipos for club racing .

hav_lova

iTrader: (4)

I'm all for the idea of brushless stock, brushless mod is awesome, i just blow my motor down after a race meet and put a drop of oil in the bearing. It doesn't get any easier

H I

iTrader: (18)

Ummmmm. Lipo/BL stock & Lipo mini...If this happens I can run 3rd class!!

ElectricConvert

I just think that the phenomenon is enevitable for every reason that falls under the aspects of economics, technology, efficiency, social, departure from tradition...you name it and it will have a positive point.

It won't be long before BL/Lipo becomes the norm and when that time comes, we should not marginalise those who are still making the transition.

Wouldn't it be funny if brushed racers will be frowned upon for trying to tweak their latest motors and use the next generation of higher voltage ni-mh cells to gain an edge in a future when BL is the norm?

koinonas

Thats the extent of my motor prep for 540!!!

Once I learn how to drive properly in 540, I'd be interested in running Stock BL/Lipo. Though I like the mechanics and tech stuff, I think I'd prefer racing and social, rather than spending all night stressed and rushed working on the car.

Andrew Barr

iTrader: (73)

At the moment, lipo batteries are not legel in any aarcmcc sanctioned event and SMA is a member. The rules that we run at SMA are similar to what is run at Castle Hill & for all Club Challenge events.

I am for progression, don't get me wrong, but as for the bl debate, it is relatively easy to check brushed motors for legality, as for bl, it could be open to abuse. The only way to check it is to open up the bl motor.

NickM

iTrader: (11)

I would respectfully suggest that by saying 'we must run to AARCMCC rules, no debate' means you are not for progression.

Nobody to my knowledge has ever checked a motor at SMA, ever, which makes the whole issue a little academic. However, checking a BL is as simple as touching a multimeter to the two outside motor wires - at least as easy as a brushed. Also, even if you check the winding tag on a brushed, are you going to pull the motor out to see if there's a bearing instead of a bushing at the pinion end??

I think BL will, in fact, make for a fairer and more level playing field.

Popeye

iTrader: (1)

I couldn't give a rats a... about aarcmcc or Castle Hill. But do have SMA/Mini at heart, and as mini is an entry level class, should be cheap. But how when asked by a prospective newcomer to the sport does one answer, when they are looking at your car, truthfully. And not being as sharp as a marble. how much does it cost?. Hence why I am so keen on lipo. Charger and battery $300 as to (aarcmcc sanctioned/Castle Hill, Club Challenge events) Power supply, charger, discharger, batteries x 3. what say $500, to be at the pointy end of the feild. plus you'll need radio gear a speedy and car.

TJ

So lipo in your mind is cheaper. Thats good but is it cheaper when you loose the car and everything around it when it blows up through bad charging or damage on the track. Also if you have only one pack if you charge as per the instructions it will take at less one hour to charge propally. As we found out at the recent Summer Nats. So that is at less two packs that you will be need.

pyrosian

NickM: There has been more than one occasion where someone was found cheating at SMA in Stock where both I and another racer have scrutineered motors due to complaints. I won't name names as he has paid his dues, but it was before you started racing down at SMA.

As far as checking a BL motor with a multimeter, there are a few flaws in doing that. First thing you need is a multimeter that will read inductance in microhenrys, then to get a true reading you need to remove the armature/rotor from the can as magnetic feilds affect the readings. Then you need to set a benchmark for testing as two motors will probably not read the same, there could be 5 microhenrys difference in inductance between two motors, if you had the motor with the higher reading you could feasibly remove a winding off of each pole and only drop 3 or 4 microhenrys therefore it would still be legal.

The biggest problem i can see though is with speed controls, the motor problems can be overcome but different speed controls have different profiles and different programing in regards to the sensor that determines rotor position. As such it is possible and probable different speed controls would achieve faster motors, turning the motor/battery wars we currently have into speedy wars where you need the fastest one to win.

I'm not against BL being used in racing but currently i think it should stay in mod and once it has been perfected (or near enough) it should filter down to 19T and Stock. The technology (for RC Cars) is still too young and is still experiencing teething problems. Given time it will probably make its way through.

As for LiPo's, although i see them as the batteries of the future, they have yet to make their mark and i'm having trouble seeing them do it now. If Australia follows the current trend of running 4 or 5 cells then LiPo becomes redundant unless cells with different voltages can be produced. Don't forget ROAR has banned ALL LiPo batteries from cars at affliated races due to insurance problems. SONY and APPLE's problems with LiPos in Laptops has left a mark on the world, if any accidents or problems with LiPos in R/C were to occur there is no-way the clubs could afford the higher insurance premiums. If you think Den's exploding NiMh's were dangerous, wait till you see a swollen LiPo explode.

Sorry about the long post
Just my 2c

Andrew Barr

iTrader: (73)

AARCMCC is like the equivalent to CAMS. As SMA is a member, we obide by their rules and regulations. There are no AARCMCC rules for Mini, so we use Castle Hill's rules (TCS rules but slightly tweaked).

I understand that costs need to kept low as Mini is an entry class, but Lipo's are not a proven product when it comes to safety. Especially with a Mini as the batteries are more exposed and have the bigger chance at being hit.

You do not need a lipo to be at the pointy end of the field. Driving ability & car set up plays a big role. The guys the the top end had years of experience and have raced many different classes.

I will be at the track on Tuesday night until 7pm and racing on Sunday. We can have a chat about it if you like.

Andrew Barr