GT class--buggy-based on road!
10-25-2007, 06:41 PM
#47
Not trying to mess up your thinking here, but I would like to share with you what has happen here in Jackson, MS at the Bass Pro races.. We started the GT class 2 races ago, the first race only had 2 entries (we had rain)... the second race we had 8 entries and I know five more for the next race...
Here are our rules:
THE SPEC CLASS IS DESIGNED TO LET PEOPLE GET INTO THE RACING SIDE OF REMOTE CONTROLLED CARS AT A LOWER COST.
THE RULES FOR THIS CLASS ARE AS FOLLOWED:
THE INFERNO GT MUST BE RAN EXACTLY LIKE IT CAME OUT OF THE BOX, NO MODIFICATION ARE ALLOWED TO BE DONE TO THE CAR, IT MUST STAY BOX STOCK EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING:
1. YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE YOUR ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT (Radio and Servos).
2. YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE SHOCK OIL TO WHAT EVER YOU WOULD LIKE BUT THE SHOCK SPRINGS MUST STAY THE SAME
3. YOU HAVE A CHOICE OF THREE TYPES OF TIRES:
- GRP TREADED TIRE part# GMWO1C or B / OR
- OFNA SLICKS OR TREADED part # 86504 WHITE& 86508 CHROME OR
- KYOSHO V - Slick Tire (IGT002-45 45-shore rating - Soft compound / IGT002-55 (55-shore rating) - Medium compound / IGT002-60 (60-shore rating) - Hard compound)
NO OTHER TIRES ARE ALLOWED!! (CHECK WITH YOUR LOCAL HOBBY SHOP OR THESE TIRES)
4. PERSONAL TRANSPONDER REQUIRED!!!
Links to the possible cars:
Inferno GT BMW M3 GTR with GXR28
Inferno GT Aston Martin DBR-9 with GXR28
Inferno GT Calsonic 350Z with GXR28
Inferno GT Subaru Impreza WRC with GXR28
Inferno GT Ferrari F430GT with GXR28
Here are our rules:
THE SPEC CLASS IS DESIGNED TO LET PEOPLE GET INTO THE RACING SIDE OF REMOTE CONTROLLED CARS AT A LOWER COST.
THE RULES FOR THIS CLASS ARE AS FOLLOWED:
THE INFERNO GT MUST BE RAN EXACTLY LIKE IT CAME OUT OF THE BOX, NO MODIFICATION ARE ALLOWED TO BE DONE TO THE CAR, IT MUST STAY BOX STOCK EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING:
1. YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE YOUR ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT (Radio and Servos).
2. YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE SHOCK OIL TO WHAT EVER YOU WOULD LIKE BUT THE SHOCK SPRINGS MUST STAY THE SAME
3. YOU HAVE A CHOICE OF THREE TYPES OF TIRES:
- GRP TREADED TIRE part# GMWO1C or B / OR
- OFNA SLICKS OR TREADED part # 86504 WHITE& 86508 CHROME OR
- KYOSHO V - Slick Tire (IGT002-45 45-shore rating - Soft compound / IGT002-55 (55-shore rating) - Medium compound / IGT002-60 (60-shore rating) - Hard compound)
NO OTHER TIRES ARE ALLOWED!! (CHECK WITH YOUR LOCAL HOBBY SHOP OR THESE TIRES)
4. PERSONAL TRANSPONDER REQUIRED!!!
Links to the possible cars:
Inferno GT BMW M3 GTR with GXR28
Inferno GT Aston Martin DBR-9 with GXR28
Inferno GT Calsonic 350Z with GXR28
Inferno GT Subaru Impreza WRC with GXR28
Inferno GT Ferrari F430GT with GXR28
10-25-2007, 07:45 PM
#49
The Porsche bodies are available from Ofna. The clear ones don’t cost that much. I think I saw one at my LHS for about $35. The Kyosho bodies have greater detail and are also available clear on the cheap. Pre-painted bodies are more costly for sure.
RC Pro Series “Class” rules for the “GT” cars are going to be simple.
“GT Stock”= Bone Stock IGT, any electronics, chassis set-up mods permitted, diff oil changes OK and all cars will use Kyosho “Optional” V-Slick rubber tires. That’s it.
“GT Super Stock” is the same as above and allows the use of any “commercially available” .28 engine, chassis upgrades permitted. All cars will use Kyosho “Optional” V-Slick rubber tires. That’s all.
“Rally Open” is a “free for all”, except that all cars must run rubber tires.
Simple.
RC Pro Series “Class” rules for the “GT” cars are going to be simple.
“GT Stock”= Bone Stock IGT, any electronics, chassis set-up mods permitted, diff oil changes OK and all cars will use Kyosho “Optional” V-Slick rubber tires. That’s it.
“GT Super Stock” is the same as above and allows the use of any “commercially available” .28 engine, chassis upgrades permitted. All cars will use Kyosho “Optional” V-Slick rubber tires. That’s all.
“Rally Open” is a “free for all”, except that all cars must run rubber tires.
Simple.
Perhaps you could do it like Lemans does, I think you should make it simpler by lettng rally open and super stock class into one, or droping open all together but allow non kyosho type cars to run it. As a matter of fact, Lemans classifies GT1 cars as 'heavily modified production cars', and GT2 is 'production cars with minor modifications'.
GT1 would be your Super stock,
and GT2 would be your stock class.
I think limiting it to Kyosho slick tires only could be problematic if there should ever by a supply/added cost issue. GRP and PMT make tires, GRP seems to be more widely available, probably more than Kyosho. PMT I think is available through a smaller distribution here.
One small area of concern with strict 'box stock rules' , but to those rules allow for changing out the threaded camber links with turnbuckles?
10-25-2007, 09:01 PM
#50
sorry to jump in, but I know the answer... Yes, all setup changes are allowed, but equipment changes are not allowed... So Shock oil can change, but not the shocks or springs... you can change the toe-in/out, camber... but you not allowed to upgrade the equipment....
10-26-2007, 08:25 PM
#51
On the brakes.... I have been told that the problem with the stock brakes, if you get fuel on them, it causes them to not work and they come a part. So I really would like to allow people to update the brake pads to Item number IFW324. I have been told they are expensive, but they will last a long time... so the cost over time is very small and the gain is big....
What do you guys think???
What do you guys think???
10-26-2007, 10:25 PM
#52
I think brakes,threaded camber links with turnbuckles, stuff like that should be cool even in the "GT Stock" class.
10-27-2007, 08:24 AM
#54
[QUOTE=bvoltz;3801404]Here are our rules:
THE SPEC CLASS IS DESIGNED TO LET PEOPLE GET INTO THE RACING SIDE OF REMOTE CONTROLLED CARS AT A LOWER COST.
THE RULES FOR THIS CLASS ARE AS FOLLOWED:
THE INFERNO GT MUST BE RAN EXACTLY LIKE IT CAME OUT OF THE BOX, NO MODIFICATION ARE ALLOWED TO BE DONE TO THE CAR, IT MUST STAY BOX STOCK EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING:
1. YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE YOUR ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT (Radio and Servos).
2. YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE SHOCK OIL TO WHAT EVER YOU WOULD LIKE BUT THE SHOCK SPRINGS MUST STAY THE SAME
3. YOU HAVE A CHOICE OF THREE TYPES OF TIRES:
- GRP TREADED TIRE part# GMWO1C or B / OR
- OFNA SLICKS OR TREADED part # 86504 WHITE& 86508 CHROME OR
- KYOSHO V - Slick Tire (IGT002-45 45-shore rating - Soft compound / IGT002-55 (55-shore rating) - Medium compound / IGT002-60 (60-shore rating) - Hard compound)
NO OTHER TIRES ARE ALLOWED!! (CHECK WITH YOUR LOCAL HOBBY SHOP OR THESE TIRES)
4. PERSONAL TRANSPONDER REQUIRED!!!
Just add two rules and you're (we're) set:
5. Turnbuckles allowed
6. Kyosho brake upgrades allowed.
My original brake pads actually tore off the pressure plate... this could be a safety issue. The 'threaded wire' that comes with the car is maddening when trying to tune the suspension.
I really think that this could be a fine, universal class with these six simple rules.....
... now where did I put the stock engine??
THE SPEC CLASS IS DESIGNED TO LET PEOPLE GET INTO THE RACING SIDE OF REMOTE CONTROLLED CARS AT A LOWER COST.
THE RULES FOR THIS CLASS ARE AS FOLLOWED:
THE INFERNO GT MUST BE RAN EXACTLY LIKE IT CAME OUT OF THE BOX, NO MODIFICATION ARE ALLOWED TO BE DONE TO THE CAR, IT MUST STAY BOX STOCK EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING:
1. YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE YOUR ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT (Radio and Servos).
2. YOU WILL BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE SHOCK OIL TO WHAT EVER YOU WOULD LIKE BUT THE SHOCK SPRINGS MUST STAY THE SAME
3. YOU HAVE A CHOICE OF THREE TYPES OF TIRES:
- GRP TREADED TIRE part# GMWO1C or B / OR
- OFNA SLICKS OR TREADED part # 86504 WHITE& 86508 CHROME OR
- KYOSHO V - Slick Tire (IGT002-45 45-shore rating - Soft compound / IGT002-55 (55-shore rating) - Medium compound / IGT002-60 (60-shore rating) - Hard compound)
NO OTHER TIRES ARE ALLOWED!! (CHECK WITH YOUR LOCAL HOBBY SHOP OR THESE TIRES)
4. PERSONAL TRANSPONDER REQUIRED!!!
Just add two rules and you're (we're) set:
5. Turnbuckles allowed
6. Kyosho brake upgrades allowed.
My original brake pads actually tore off the pressure plate... this could be a safety issue. The 'threaded wire' that comes with the car is maddening when trying to tune the suspension.
I really think that this could be a fine, universal class with these six simple rules.....
... now where did I put the stock engine??
Last edited by Zootcapri; 10-27-2007 at 08:43 AM. Reason: clarification
10-28-2007, 01:32 AM
#55
Tampa Florida December 1-2, 2007
11-01-2007, 03:21 PM
#56
Tech Regular
Kyosho Durability
I just wanted to chime in here with respect to the durability of the Kyosho Landmax. This was Kyosho's first buggy-rally car conversion. I got on of these in 1999 and it is still going strong. In general use (not racing) I have only had to replace these parts in 7 years:
Wheels, tires
Air cleaner element
Piston/Liner ($35!)
It has gone through 2 steering servos and I have changed the radio and battery a few times but the 'chassis' components have not worn out or broken. Could probably use a new body at this point.
With the renewed interest in these cars, this last season I tore it down and even things like the clutch shoes and gears were not bad enough to replace.
This is in contrast to an HPI RS4 that I also bought in 2000. It tended to disintegrate into pieces in the first few months of ownership.
Wheels, tires
Air cleaner element
Piston/Liner ($35!)
It has gone through 2 steering servos and I have changed the radio and battery a few times but the 'chassis' components have not worn out or broken. Could probably use a new body at this point.
With the renewed interest in these cars, this last season I tore it down and even things like the clutch shoes and gears were not bad enough to replace.
This is in contrast to an HPI RS4 that I also bought in 2000. It tended to disintegrate into pieces in the first few months of ownership.
11-01-2007, 04:41 PM
#57
Can I play devil's advocate for a minute here?
I don't want to throw a wet blanket on any idea, because I'd like to see more people racing, too, but historically, adding more classes isn't always the best way to accomplish this. In reality, it just thins out the classes that already exist, as people move from one to another instead of building good turnout numbers in a mainstay class. In my experience, a new class only works against higher entry numbers in the long term—not in benefit of it.
I'm wondering if the reasoning to add another nitro on road class is to generate new racers or to just have another interesting class with a car that has a low cost entry point? If the latter is the case, it's not in the best interest of anyone to move towards a class that has a car/chassis specific focus, where the car is useless anywhere else outside of that class. For someone to enter racing in a class like that, their next step out of an "entry level" is to sell the car and move to something else entirely, leaving all of their spares and consumables useless for anything more than that class-specific car.
Now, I realize that all other classes are car/chassis dependent, but at least the cars have some use to others in resale. What can you do with this car if you decide you don't like the class or you want to move up?
Could an entry-level class return to Midwest gas racing in the way of a Sportsman class, that would maybe help propel new racers (and electric converts) into nitro racing? I recall Sportsman and 2wd used to be a very populated class in the MWS WAY back when I was a teen and raced in it, and then over time, it vanished—along with a feeder system for faster classes—and a lot of new on road racers.
Trust me, I dig the IGT and overall concept of the class (through Leisure Hours), but when I looked at the cost outlay to start up, plus the quality of the kits and parts, then I figured out where I wanted to be as an entry-level gas racer next year, I decided that it was more in my better interest to buy a purpose-built 1/8th on road car and work my way up through the D and C mains, than to buy a car that has one very specific use, and even a more specific resale buyer. [How's that for a run-on sentence?] Not to mention quality of competition, number of tracks that this car can compete on, parts supply, low-buck kit quality and in the inevitability for people to push the limits of an "entry level" chassis with hop ups and rule bending.
If courting new racers is really the intent, my only concern is that this class is a dead-end for anyone who wants to go further in gas racing.
Would a Sportsman 1/10th sedan and 1/8th on-road "spec" class or 2wd bring in more new racers? Are the costs of this new proposed buggy chassis class that much more inexpensive than something else? Are you inviting the "basher" attitude and behavior shown in that previously mentioned video to one of the last grown-up forms of R/C racing?
Just thinking out loud. No intent to create any conflict... just another side to the discussion.
doug
I don't want to throw a wet blanket on any idea, because I'd like to see more people racing, too, but historically, adding more classes isn't always the best way to accomplish this. In reality, it just thins out the classes that already exist, as people move from one to another instead of building good turnout numbers in a mainstay class. In my experience, a new class only works against higher entry numbers in the long term—not in benefit of it.
I'm wondering if the reasoning to add another nitro on road class is to generate new racers or to just have another interesting class with a car that has a low cost entry point? If the latter is the case, it's not in the best interest of anyone to move towards a class that has a car/chassis specific focus, where the car is useless anywhere else outside of that class. For someone to enter racing in a class like that, their next step out of an "entry level" is to sell the car and move to something else entirely, leaving all of their spares and consumables useless for anything more than that class-specific car.
Now, I realize that all other classes are car/chassis dependent, but at least the cars have some use to others in resale. What can you do with this car if you decide you don't like the class or you want to move up?
Could an entry-level class return to Midwest gas racing in the way of a Sportsman class, that would maybe help propel new racers (and electric converts) into nitro racing? I recall Sportsman and 2wd used to be a very populated class in the MWS WAY back when I was a teen and raced in it, and then over time, it vanished—along with a feeder system for faster classes—and a lot of new on road racers.
Trust me, I dig the IGT and overall concept of the class (through Leisure Hours), but when I looked at the cost outlay to start up, plus the quality of the kits and parts, then I figured out where I wanted to be as an entry-level gas racer next year, I decided that it was more in my better interest to buy a purpose-built 1/8th on road car and work my way up through the D and C mains, than to buy a car that has one very specific use, and even a more specific resale buyer. [How's that for a run-on sentence?] Not to mention quality of competition, number of tracks that this car can compete on, parts supply, low-buck kit quality and in the inevitability for people to push the limits of an "entry level" chassis with hop ups and rule bending.
If courting new racers is really the intent, my only concern is that this class is a dead-end for anyone who wants to go further in gas racing.
Would a Sportsman 1/10th sedan and 1/8th on-road "spec" class or 2wd bring in more new racers? Are the costs of this new proposed buggy chassis class that much more inexpensive than something else? Are you inviting the "basher" attitude and behavior shown in that previously mentioned video to one of the last grown-up forms of R/C racing?
Just thinking out loud. No intent to create any conflict... just another side to the discussion.
doug
11-01-2007, 05:15 PM
#58
Sorry, I hadn't read the 2008 MWS thread discussing the reasons and proposed structure of the class, and didn't understand the intent of a "buggy" class racing on-road.
I'm not totally sold on the idea, but that's just me. I'd much rather see a stepping stone class for me to jump into the fold in 1/10th sedan or 1/8th 4wd that allowed the use of the same or similar technology as the "open" classes, and yet not feel immediately intimidated by gas racers with national titles and decades of experience under their belts.
I guess the big question is, can you pull buggy off road guys into this class and grow the rest of the classes because of it, or are you just adding more moving chicanes to dodge in practice? I know I ran LH a couple of times with an electric sedan last summer, and those GT cars that were out there had a definite "basher" or monster truck aura around them. I very much felt the need to leave the track when they were running.
Again, that's just me... I'll be joining the 1/8th fray next summer for the first time in 19 years.
I'm not totally sold on the idea, but that's just me. I'd much rather see a stepping stone class for me to jump into the fold in 1/10th sedan or 1/8th 4wd that allowed the use of the same or similar technology as the "open" classes, and yet not feel immediately intimidated by gas racers with national titles and decades of experience under their belts.
I guess the big question is, can you pull buggy off road guys into this class and grow the rest of the classes because of it, or are you just adding more moving chicanes to dodge in practice? I know I ran LH a couple of times with an electric sedan last summer, and those GT cars that were out there had a definite "basher" or monster truck aura around them. I very much felt the need to leave the track when they were running.
Again, that's just me... I'll be joining the 1/8th fray next summer for the first time in 19 years.
11-01-2007, 05:43 PM
#59
Hey Doug, You have some really good points. Maybe you should chime in on the MWS board as well. The one thing that struck me was the practice issue, and the lack of it being a 'stepping stone' class. Certainly these cars will be slower in practice, and they will not be similar enough to drive like the 1/8th open or 1/10th touring class. The 1/12th spada and 1/8th F1 car was also being considerd. Perhaps you are right, in a way I wish that 1/8th (or 1/10th 2wd pan) car was still around (and it might make a comeback), perhaps those 2 classes would be better 'stepping stones' for something like the MWS because I really never felt that 1/10th 200mm wasn't such a great beginner class.
11-01-2007, 05:59 PM
#60
I raced a handful of Chicago area MWS races in '88 and '89 as a teen, and at that time, I ran a 4wd Serpent chassis in 2wd mode in the Sportsman class. The class was newer gas racers and "old fogies" at the time. For me, it was a great way to really compete in an established club without the fear of getting in the way of some of the hardcore 4wd guys who took it (far too) seriously. I didn't feel overwhelmed or out of place, and it was actually quite a comfortable and cost-effective way to enter gas racing at a club level.
I know there will always be arguments against 2wd and "spec" classes, but it's always more appealing if you can use the very same car in that entry-level class as you can later on in the destination Open class. I don't know about other non MWS or gas racers, but for me, it would be far more appealing to return to (or enter) 1/8th scale with a spec tire (hardness), spec motor (cost limit), spec body, 2wd class that it would be to jump into the deep end in 4wd Open with some of the names I saw on the 2006 MWS point standings.
I'm getting off the track, so to speak, and straying from the GT proposal. I didn't mean to derail the conversation—I'm just wondering if trying to fill the void of Outlaw for the sake of replacing it accomplishes anything or just creates another class that has participation from drivers running a second car at the event. Will it really bring off road racers to the pavement? Is it sexy enough to pull in electric carpet racers wanting more?
But again, I haven't run in a MWS event in almost 2 decades, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
doug
I know there will always be arguments against 2wd and "spec" classes, but it's always more appealing if you can use the very same car in that entry-level class as you can later on in the destination Open class. I don't know about other non MWS or gas racers, but for me, it would be far more appealing to return to (or enter) 1/8th scale with a spec tire (hardness), spec motor (cost limit), spec body, 2wd class that it would be to jump into the deep end in 4wd Open with some of the names I saw on the 2006 MWS point standings.
I'm getting off the track, so to speak, and straying from the GT proposal. I didn't mean to derail the conversation—I'm just wondering if trying to fill the void of Outlaw for the sake of replacing it accomplishes anything or just creates another class that has participation from drivers running a second car at the event. Will it really bring off road racers to the pavement? Is it sexy enough to pull in electric carpet racers wanting more?
But again, I haven't run in a MWS event in almost 2 decades, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
doug