To mod or not to mod
01-31-2010, 01:44 AM
#31
Don't take this as a flame.Who would you be to down grade what knowledge someone else may or may not have,without knowing them.The so called guru's you speak of had to learn from somewhere did they not.I think its even more arrogant for you to bash someone when you have no idea who they are or what they may be capable of.Helping start a magazine doesnt make you an engine expert. The gentleman that started this post simply asked about what most thought of a modded engine.That doesnt include you bashing people or thier work.Its simply a personal choice just like what tire to run at a particular track.
steve has been there and done that
that i know !!!!
01-31-2010, 02:27 AM
#32
I am involved with the devellopment of an engine (not a copy) and I can say it is a long road to get it right.
Just sticking to the same timings you will see improvements or a complete disaster trying different piston materials as also the quality of the sleeve. When you grind the inside of the sleeve perfectly round and conical it will make a difference compared when just making a conical sleeve, add a chrome layer on it and scratch it with a stone, that last will make it not that precise.
When searching the market for the right piston materials you can see ther are a lot of options and prices. We have a piston material which is used by the McLaren F1 team for suspension parts and it is that strong it is almost impossible to create a piston with standard tools and we have a very low friction material with wich you can go full on performance while running in, it will not get stuck. Also the needles in the carburator as the shape of the combustion chamber can make a lot of difference.
Knowing these more expensive materials and other parts I am not suprised if certain level teamengines have these work on it. For normal productions it is to expensive to get such engines on the market and as a manufacturer you want your teamdrivers to have the best.
Going back to modding, cheaper engines are mostly configured for less performance but can indeed be enough to drive with (depending the track). Yes, in those engines there is room to get more out of it. For toplevel engines you will notice more performance when modding it but then there is the question if you can get better laptimes out of it and for most drivers that is a NO.
Just sticking to the same timings you will see improvements or a complete disaster trying different piston materials as also the quality of the sleeve. When you grind the inside of the sleeve perfectly round and conical it will make a difference compared when just making a conical sleeve, add a chrome layer on it and scratch it with a stone, that last will make it not that precise.
When searching the market for the right piston materials you can see ther are a lot of options and prices. We have a piston material which is used by the McLaren F1 team for suspension parts and it is that strong it is almost impossible to create a piston with standard tools and we have a very low friction material with wich you can go full on performance while running in, it will not get stuck. Also the needles in the carburator as the shape of the combustion chamber can make a lot of difference.
Knowing these more expensive materials and other parts I am not suprised if certain level teamengines have these work on it. For normal productions it is to expensive to get such engines on the market and as a manufacturer you want your teamdrivers to have the best.
Going back to modding, cheaper engines are mostly configured for less performance but can indeed be enough to drive with (depending the track). Yes, in those engines there is room to get more out of it. For toplevel engines you will notice more performance when modding it but then there is the question if you can get better laptimes out of it and for most drivers that is a NO.
01-31-2010, 02:40 AM
#33
01-31-2010, 05:51 AM
#34
Tech Apprentice
What i would pay for is not really modding, but hand matched engines. Of course for piston & sleeve, but not only : crank moving as free as possible in the bearings etc.
Of course i guess one needs a lots of parts and experience to make this.
Of course i guess one needs a lots of parts and experience to make this.
01-31-2010, 06:01 AM
#35
For the people against mods.... Have you ever had a modded engine? Or is it the case of my friend has a neighbor whose uncle said its a waste of money. Also, for a knowledgeable moder, whats the difference if they mod your engine or the engine company hires someone to do it for them? So its ok for the company to say here is Modded engine X and it costs $150-200 more, so is that ok, or is that bs as well?
01-31-2010, 06:30 AM
#36
When people assume to know everything there is to know is when the progress will stop.........I have been involved in modifying engines my entire life, my father had a Speed shop and raised our family off building high performance machines....My grandfather raised my father off building high performance machines..... The very things I see written in this post against engine modding are the same things the critics have been saying for generations.....I will gladly put my skills with modding these engines to the test for anyone willing to give me a fair test........ I am not much for big flowery words, or unrealistic claims that defy the laws the physics.... But if you think the engineers at the factories are the only ones with a strong understanding of loop scavenging 2 strokes you are sadly mistaken......Many innovative developments in combustion engines over the years have come from independent sources and not the big factories.... Many times the engineers are working to develop a efficient cost effective production, which leads to compromises with the ideal design....
01-31-2010, 06:42 AM
#37
I just don't get one thing. Engine modders claim to get you more power and fuel economy. I'm sorry, but it does'nt take a rocket scientist to know that to make more power you need more air and fuel. If someone can explain that to my understanding of how a internal combustion engine works, than you will have a new customer.
01-31-2010, 06:45 AM
#38
I just don't get one thing. Engine modders claim to get you more power and fuel economy. I'm sorry, but it does'nt take a rocket scientist to know that to make more power you need more air and fuel. If someone can explain that to my understanding of how a internal combustion engine works, than you will have a new customer.
01-31-2010, 06:53 AM
#39
WOW, when I first started this thread I wanted to educate myself on todays moded engines, I have been out of the hobby since 1993 (got back in to it in 2008) and back then Ron Paris moded motors were THE MOTORS to have, but just like everithing else there is evolution as an example, the highly expenssive exotic cars from the 80's (lambos, Ferrari, etc) are blown away in performance by todays WRX and EVO's to name a few, BMW new 323 is faster, outhandles and is more comfortable than there original M3 wich back in the 80's was an outstandig performer. Any way back to toy cars just like in the real cars there are "tuners" and then there are "TUNERS". I beleive in buying from a manufacture that has been in business for a long time, has a proper R&D, QA and uses quality suplies. From this so called High end manufactures is there really a need to mod there high end motors?
eg. OS Speed $500 motor will it see benefits?
OS v-spec $300 plus moding and your at or around $500
is it worth it?
eg. OS Speed $500 motor will it see benefits?
OS v-spec $300 plus moding and your at or around $500
is it worth it?
01-31-2010, 06:56 AM
#40
When I put a modded engine on the starter box at factory settings and it idles forever that tells me that the flow of the engine has been improved. Anytime you lighten up the crank and it spools up faster it's just that faster. To me it's like this used buggy I recently purchased. It was owned by anteie racer that had every race part you could want. I had a hard time driving it because of the alum axles and cvd retainers. It just was too quick for my level of buggy driving and I was out of control. I added stock steel axles and the acceloration was slower and that better suited my driving for right now. Once I get use to it I may try the lightened axles again because the lightened drivetrain made a huge difference. The main things I have noticed with the engine modder I use are: increased acceloration or quicker spool up, improved runtime, easier idle characteristics. Besides why not mod??
01-31-2010, 06:59 AM
#41
So basically what you saying is that when the piston is on its way down, and the exhaust escapes the rear port, some fuel also goes through the rear port from the intakes until the rear port is sealed again. The ports can be shaped to control this better.
01-31-2010, 07:01 AM
#42
and that is where i make most of my changes, more precisely in the timing and angle of the intake charge....
01-31-2010, 07:09 AM
#43
When people assume to know everything there is to know is when the progress will stop.........I have been involved in modifying engines my entire life, my father had a Speed shop and raised our family off building high performance machines....My grandfather raised my father off building high performance machines..... The very things I see written in this post against engine modding are the same things the critics have been saying for generations.....I will gladly put my skills with modding these engines to the test for anyone willing to give me a fair test........ I am not much for big flowery words, or unrealistic claims that defy the laws the physics.... But if you think the engineers at the factories are the only ones with a strong understanding of loop scavenging 2 strokes you are sadly mistaken......Many innovative developments in combustion engines over the years have come from independent sources and not the big factories.... Many times the engineers are working to develop a efficient cost effective production, which leads to compromises with the ideal design....
01-31-2010, 08:00 AM
#45
Yes, that is 2-stroke, and thats why the exhaust is very important, a bad length will cause a bad timing on the shockwave keeping burned gasses with the fresh fuel or loosing a lot of fresh fuel.