2008 MOTONICA Grand Prix Las Vegas Silver Bowl Raceway
01-24-2008, 11:06 AM
#31
This is an excellent discussion, and I think it is important for the racers to voice their opinions and decide what is best for them as a group. For those of you who have been doing this long enough, you will remember similar discussions took place for 235mm 2wd and 4wd, 200mm (remember the days when 200mm had to run rubber tires), and if you race off road, the whole monster truck/truggy debate. The point is what started out as a fun ‘run what you brung’ class turned into a class full of rules which took most of the fun out of it, and in the case of 235mm, the class eventually died.
My suggestion, at least for the time being, is to keep the rules simple and basic. Any rubber tires (although I do agree foams will likely hook up much better on the VHT treated surface), any buggy/truggy based chassis, any motor (or limit it from .18 to .28 +/-), and any sports/touring car body. This will alleviate the need, headache, and hassle of teching cars- just think of wing height, width, cooling holes, roof height, etc..
I doubt anyone at the Airtronics race ran a bone stock car, and I think it is fair to agree that proper assembly and setup is far more valuable to achieving fast and consistent lap times, than piling on the option parts. My car was far from stock, but only some of the hop ups helped in the lap time department- mainly the tires, shock springs and pistons, clutch, optional pinion gears, optional sway bars, and maybe the rear uprights. The rest of it is either for durability or simply eye candy, which I consider to be part of the fun of the hobby. Even my engine was not a ‘hot’ motor. I used an inexpensive off road .21. The only item I used that is not easily to find are the shock springs. They are made for the Revo, so I assume similar springs should be easy to find. It is my understanding that Kyosho is working on an optional spring set for the cars as well.
Keep in mind also, that some of the option parts, while they cost more up front, might help save money later. For example, I run a Fioroni off road clutch which costs about $65 +/-. The shoes and springs in this clutch far outlast traditional 3 shoe clutches, and over a race season or two, pay for themselves- and they work better regardless.
I’ll post my setup here soon, and if I ever run this car again, I will post whatever setup changes I make. I offered to help anyone in this class last weekend, and my offer is still open.
One last thing. Matt spent a lot less than $250, and that includes a pair of tires. Adding weight in the form of aluminum parts may not seem like a good thing, but not all option parts weigh more, and adding weight at a low point in the centerline of the chassis is sometimes helpful (think of brass battery trays).
My suggestion, at least for the time being, is to keep the rules simple and basic. Any rubber tires (although I do agree foams will likely hook up much better on the VHT treated surface), any buggy/truggy based chassis, any motor (or limit it from .18 to .28 +/-), and any sports/touring car body. This will alleviate the need, headache, and hassle of teching cars- just think of wing height, width, cooling holes, roof height, etc..
I doubt anyone at the Airtronics race ran a bone stock car, and I think it is fair to agree that proper assembly and setup is far more valuable to achieving fast and consistent lap times, than piling on the option parts. My car was far from stock, but only some of the hop ups helped in the lap time department- mainly the tires, shock springs and pistons, clutch, optional pinion gears, optional sway bars, and maybe the rear uprights. The rest of it is either for durability or simply eye candy, which I consider to be part of the fun of the hobby. Even my engine was not a ‘hot’ motor. I used an inexpensive off road .21. The only item I used that is not easily to find are the shock springs. They are made for the Revo, so I assume similar springs should be easy to find. It is my understanding that Kyosho is working on an optional spring set for the cars as well.
Keep in mind also, that some of the option parts, while they cost more up front, might help save money later. For example, I run a Fioroni off road clutch which costs about $65 +/-. The shoes and springs in this clutch far outlast traditional 3 shoe clutches, and over a race season or two, pay for themselves- and they work better regardless.
I’ll post my setup here soon, and if I ever run this car again, I will post whatever setup changes I make. I offered to help anyone in this class last weekend, and my offer is still open.
One last thing. Matt spent a lot less than $250, and that includes a pair of tires. Adding weight in the form of aluminum parts may not seem like a good thing, but not all option parts weigh more, and adding weight at a low point in the centerline of the chassis is sometimes helpful (think of brass battery trays).
01-24-2008, 12:03 PM
#32
I agree with most of what you said, but I would like to see some better restriction placed on the engine. Nobody showed up with one, and it may be detrimental, but with those rules you could have put your 359 into the car.
Durability and performance are usually not a bad thing, but at what price do they become in conflict with the intention of this class?
Durability and performance are usually not a bad thing, but at what price do they become in conflict with the intention of this class?
01-24-2008, 01:57 PM
#34
[QUOTE=Scott Fisher;4113196]I agree with most of what you said, but I would like to see some better restriction placed on the engine. Nobody showed up with one, and it may be detrimental, but with those rules you could have put your 359 into the car.QUOTE]
Am I correct in thinking that the biggest single performance gain would be in a high dollar high reving .21? Would that lead to a controlled .28 displacement, knowing that there is a wide range even in that displacement...but... perhaps a little more even?
Just thinking when I should be working.
Am I correct in thinking that the biggest single performance gain would be in a high dollar high reving .21? Would that lead to a controlled .28 displacement, knowing that there is a wide range even in that displacement...but... perhaps a little more even?
Just thinking when I should be working.
Last edited by Zootcapri; 01-24-2008 at 04:02 PM.
01-24-2008, 03:51 PM
#35
Tech Adept
I had enough In N Out last weekend to keep me for least a month or so.
Mark
01-24-2008, 06:46 PM
#37
The rubber tires did qualify 2 and 3, But I only ran the foams in the 3rd qualifier, or I prob would have been in that second spot.
I mainly wanted to try them out, and they do hook up like crazy on that track. Makes that car fun as hell to drive!
Garen did still beat me in that race, but given a better setup on mine, It may have been different. He is also a far better driver than me to begin with.
My foams did not chunk at all there. On either of my cars. That track is made for foam tires, so I don't think wear would be a big issue there.
I obviously have my vote for them, but no one else will vote that way, so It makes no difference anyways. Unless others get them and run them at all, then no one is going to want to allow them, and so this conversation on foams will go nowhere.
Lets just Forgettaboutit.
I mainly wanted to try them out, and they do hook up like crazy on that track. Makes that car fun as hell to drive!
Garen did still beat me in that race, but given a better setup on mine, It may have been different. He is also a far better driver than me to begin with.
My foams did not chunk at all there. On either of my cars. That track is made for foam tires, so I don't think wear would be a big issue there.
I obviously have my vote for them, but no one else will vote that way, so It makes no difference anyways. Unless others get them and run them at all, then no one is going to want to allow them, and so this conversation on foams will go nowhere.
Lets just Forgettaboutit.
01-24-2008, 08:23 PM
#38
True, but there was someone running foams in qualifying if I recall correctly. It just seemed that those Medial Pro rubber tires were super grippy. Even more so than the GRP tires or Kyosho slicks.
01-24-2008, 08:24 PM
#39
Tech Regular
iTrader: (15)
Dave (the guy who tried the foams on the IGT) and I are both pretty easy going so if there's a consensus to keep it to rubber, we won't be offended or anything but we are both voting for allowing them!
I really wouldn't even consider pushing for foams on the tracks we run here in Utah because the rubbers hook up great. But honestly the Silver Bowl track would be more fun for IGT with foams. And isn't it all about fun in a sports class like IGT? I don't think it's a cost issue because foam lasts so long at Silver Bowl that you'll get a ton of use out of some foams and you've got to upgrade from the stock tires that wear out extremely fast one way or the other. So you're gonna buy some $40 or $45 sets of tires one way or the other. Why not pick the one that's more fun?
Scott Fisher - I don't mind anyone running a hot engine in the IGT class because setup and traction feel like much more of a limiting factor to your lap times in this particular class. One reason it's hard to limit engines from a practical standpoint is that the stock Kyosho engine is a .28 (or .27 or something) so you really can't outlaw .28 engines and the Kyosho engines wear out eventually (as do all nitro engines) so you really can't insist on people running stock engines. That's just my take on engines but I respect your thought on it as well.
PS - Someone who reads this thread might think the April race is all about IGTs. IGT's are really just an up and coming entry-level class that's gaining a little bit of attention.
but we are both voting for allowing them!I really wouldn't even consider pushing for foams on the tracks we run here in Utah because the rubbers hook up great. But honestly the Silver Bowl track would be more fun for IGT with foams. And isn't it all about fun in a sports class like IGT?
I don't think it's a cost issue because foam lasts so long at Silver Bowl that you'll get a ton of use out of some foams and you've got to upgrade from the stock tires that wear out extremely fast one way or the other. So you're gonna buy some $40 or $45 sets of tires one way or the other. Why not pick the one that's more fun? Scott Fisher - I don't mind anyone running a hot engine in the IGT class because setup and traction feel like much more of a limiting factor to your lap times in this particular class. One reason it's hard to limit engines from a practical standpoint is that the stock Kyosho engine is a .28 (or .27 or something) so you really can't outlaw .28 engines and the Kyosho engines wear out eventually (as do all nitro engines) so you really can't insist on people running stock engines. That's just my take on engines but I respect your thought on it as well.
PS - Someone who reads this thread might think the April race is all about IGTs. IGT's are really just an up and coming entry-level class that's gaining a little bit of attention.
01-24-2008, 08:46 PM
#40
The rubber tires did qualify 2 and 3, But I only ran the foams in the 3rd qualifier, or I prob would have been in that second spot.
I mainly wanted to try them out, and they do hook up like crazy on that track. Makes that car fun as hell to drive!
Garen did still beat me in that race, but given a better setup on mine, It may have been different. He is also a far better driver than me to begin with.
My foams did not chunk at all there. On either of my cars. That track is made for foam tires, so I don't think wear would be a big issue there.
I obviously have my vote for them, but no one else will vote that way, so It makes no difference anyways. Unless others get them and run them at all, then no one is going to want to allow them, and so this conversation on foams will go nowhere.
Lets just Forgettaboutit.
I mainly wanted to try them out, and they do hook up like crazy on that track. Makes that car fun as hell to drive!
Garen did still beat me in that race, but given a better setup on mine, It may have been different. He is also a far better driver than me to begin with.
My foams did not chunk at all there. On either of my cars. That track is made for foam tires, so I don't think wear would be a big issue there.
I obviously have my vote for them, but no one else will vote that way, so It makes no difference anyways. Unless others get them and run them at all, then no one is going to want to allow them, and so this conversation on foams will go nowhere.
Lets just Forgettaboutit.
Garen and I actually talked about the possibility of foams being an unfair advantage at that race, but it didn't appear to be so. If a person ends up lapping people time after time then maybe someone might say something. However, did that person lap others because of foam tires or was that person simply a better driver and knew how to control their car? Personally, I'm in a huge agreement with Garen as far as a 'run what you brung' class. As many of you saw there was no teching for this class, there was a little bumping here and there, and eveyone had a good time! Heck, I had more fun when I lost my tire in the 3rd qualifier! Not to mention that this also had the greatest appeal to on-lookers. Racers Depot even sold 3 or 4 cars that weekend because people thought it looked FUN!
I understand rules are rules and I'm always willing to abide by them (in R/C at least), but I think it may be time to bring back the good ol' days of some parking lot racing fun into a racing atmosphere.
Personally, I'm glad we didn't adapt the IGT rules set by some organizations. I wouldn't have been allowed to run that race as my car wasn't a Kyosho. I'm pretty sure not one car would have passed if we really 'teched' them by the standards that were set at some tracks. I know Garen would have been disqualified as would I. What about the people that have purchased Ofna GT's or DM-1's? Are we that superior to not include them in a friendly competition?
I remember racing pan car back in the day when you could run what you brung. It then became a battery and motor war and eventually led to over-bearing rules which ended up killing the class for the most part. So what if you have an aluminum suspension holder. So what if you have a pretty shock tower. It doesn't make you faster. It might make your car a little stronger, but it just means something else will break. Believe me on that one!
I would like to see the class grow, but only in an enjoyable, fun atmosphere where everyone can bring their cars out and run. Just my .02
01-24-2008, 08:48 PM
#41
If you remember the first few minutes of the main I was hot on your tail....I was also on Medial Pro's.. then I tried to squeeze seven minutes out of a 6 and a half minute tank... dooh...
01-24-2008, 08:51 PM
#42
Ahh... but you saw the back of my car and not the front! 
01-24-2008, 08:54 PM
#43
I will make one argument for foams/against rubber tires.
With foam tires, you only have to find the correct shore, which once a precedence is established, you won't need to stray too much. I don't know how many shores foam tires for these cars come in, but I assume it is not as varied as normal foam tires. I also have to assume the foams for these cars are much harder than foams for 1/8th or even sedan. As far as costs go, rubber tires can get expensive if you factor in the inserts. This was/is a problem with rubber tires a few years back, where you had one or two compounds of tires, and two or more compounds of inserts, and you had to mix and match them all to find something that worked. I don't know how many different types, compounds, of rubber tires and inserts are made for these cars. Also, the tire will normally outlast the foam insert, and once the foam goes, it's bye bye tire. This is the main reason why the medial pro tires were so good. They work fine, they last forever, no foams to experiment with, end result is they are very cheap to run.
The flip side is you can chunk a foam tire, and I suppose to make it work right you would need a tire truer to make them the right size.
This same exact debate took place about 8 years ago for 200mm sedans...
I would love to try this car with foams on that track, I think the lap times would easily be a second or two faster, and I am sure the car setup would be quite different.
With foam tires, you only have to find the correct shore, which once a precedence is established, you won't need to stray too much. I don't know how many shores foam tires for these cars come in, but I assume it is not as varied as normal foam tires. I also have to assume the foams for these cars are much harder than foams for 1/8th or even sedan. As far as costs go, rubber tires can get expensive if you factor in the inserts. This was/is a problem with rubber tires a few years back, where you had one or two compounds of tires, and two or more compounds of inserts, and you had to mix and match them all to find something that worked. I don't know how many different types, compounds, of rubber tires and inserts are made for these cars. Also, the tire will normally outlast the foam insert, and once the foam goes, it's bye bye tire. This is the main reason why the medial pro tires were so good. They work fine, they last forever, no foams to experiment with, end result is they are very cheap to run.
The flip side is you can chunk a foam tire, and I suppose to make it work right you would need a tire truer to make them the right size.
This same exact debate took place about 8 years ago for 200mm sedans...
I would love to try this car with foams on that track, I think the lap times would easily be a second or two faster, and I am sure the car setup would be quite different.
01-24-2008, 09:05 PM
#45
From the basic four rules... Rubber tires, 1/8th buggy based chassis, .28 or smaller motor and sedan type body... Tech's car wouldn't have passed. but, I didn't have a problem with that... did anyone? The Ofna is buggy chassis based. If so... what are the constraints regarding chassis... must have one... yes/no?? ... So... drop the chassis requirement... but... it must be 1/8th scale.
I think that the Kyosho .28 stock motor...properly tuned and geared should be competative...ish...
Rubber tires still give a choice.
Sedan body that covers the wheels.
Drop the trophy and keep it a 'fun' class (not saying that 1/10th and 1/8th aren't fun classes).
I think that the Kyosho .28 stock motor...properly tuned and geared should be competative...ish...
Rubber tires still give a choice.
Sedan body that covers the wheels.
Drop the trophy and keep it a 'fun' class (not saying that 1/10th and 1/8th aren't fun classes).