Midwest Series '08' 39th year!
01-08-2008, 03:12 PM
#136
I'm definitely interested in a GT class as well. I actually have a Kyosho 7.5 so it'd be real easy for me to convert it into a Kyosho GT since the factory one is based on it. However, I think that a more open set of rules would be better. My question, though, do we allow two-speeds? If so, everyone converting a buggy would need to get one.
Ted -THere's another thread that started a few months ago here on rctech that people are going into the rules with, and I'm sure Ron has been monitoring it and will be coming up with some rules for the series. There are some classes that say strictly IGT's, most are allowing 1/8th buggy based platform vehicles, meaning any repurposed buggy will do, or similar onroad based variant. The Italian GT cars you saw at Larry's are rare and have no offroad variant, and I'm not sure if they're worth the trouble either. Regarding expensive motors, perhaps the Series could enact a motor claimor rule set at 250-350 dollars for this class. Meaning the series director has the right to pull your motor out and sell it on ebay no reserve if your motor is in question as being overkill.
Regarding EFRA rules, I tried looking there and found nothing.
-Ron do you need help writing the rules?
The 1/7th DM-1's and Ultra GTP's are a bit different from the buggies. They look about the same, but are a bit larger, most likely heavier. However I think we don't know enough wether or not they are advantageous over 1/8th IGT type vehicles.
01-09-2008, 07:40 AM
#137
Rules
We are running this class in Cincinnati and to keep it simple we plan on setting up a "breakout" rule. At the beginning of the season, we'll establish a not to exceed lap time, set it in the computer as a guard time, and anyone who turns laps faster than that time won't count. Takes all the rules, teching, etc. out of it. We wanted a good, entry level, run what your brung series to draw racers, not a group of legal enthusiasts who have found the loophole in the rules. Also, the RC Pro Series has established rules for this class that may be worth looking at for the series.
Dennis
Dennis
01-10-2008, 06:26 PM
#138
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
My $0.02 regarding the GT class (after running the Inferno GT quite a bit at Leisure):
A $200 'claim' rule for the engine is simple and no extra work for the tech guy.
Sticking with just one or a couple of different rubber tires allows it so that everyone doesn't need to buy every tire with every insert combo to make sure they are covered.
Consider running the qualifiers and mains 'backwards' on the track for this class only. That would make this class just that much more interesting (and it actually helps make it easier to transition from this car to the other car if you run this as an extra class).
For anyone who plans on running the Kyosho rubber tires, don't run the included insert. They do not provide nearly enough support near the sidewall, resulting in super fast wear right where the sidewall meets the tread. Bernie discovered this first at Leisure, and despite his warning, I had to try it myself. That set of tires lasted about 15 minutes on the track before they were worn through in a narrow ring around the outside edge.
As silly as it seems, stuffing a full size 1/8th off-road buggy insert into the Kyosho tires works great (Bernie's idea). Much better grip now, and I have several hours on that set of tires with them still looking brand new (all on Leisure's track, where they hooked up great).
I plan on running this class as an 'extra' class all summer long at Leisure, so I'm looking forward to the possibility of doing this at the MWS races too. Good idea Ron, and however you decide to do it is fine with me in the end.
A $200 'claim' rule for the engine is simple and no extra work for the tech guy.
Sticking with just one or a couple of different rubber tires allows it so that everyone doesn't need to buy every tire with every insert combo to make sure they are covered.
Consider running the qualifiers and mains 'backwards' on the track for this class only. That would make this class just that much more interesting (and it actually helps make it easier to transition from this car to the other car if you run this as an extra class).
For anyone who plans on running the Kyosho rubber tires, don't run the included insert. They do not provide nearly enough support near the sidewall, resulting in super fast wear right where the sidewall meets the tread. Bernie discovered this first at Leisure, and despite his warning, I had to try it myself. That set of tires lasted about 15 minutes on the track before they were worn through in a narrow ring around the outside edge.
As silly as it seems, stuffing a full size 1/8th off-road buggy insert into the Kyosho tires works great (Bernie's idea). Much better grip now, and I have several hours on that set of tires with them still looking brand new (all on Leisure's track, where they hooked up great).
I plan on running this class as an 'extra' class all summer long at Leisure, so I'm looking forward to the possibility of doing this at the MWS races too. Good idea Ron, and however you decide to do it is fine with me in the end.
01-10-2008, 06:39 PM
#139
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
If anyone is interested, here I am racing with 'TCtuner' on Leisure's track with our Inferno GTs, rubber tires, 'backwards' around the circuit (Howard is doing the filming).
Typical bad 'youtube' quality, but you can get the idea of how much fun these cars are on a track like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWwelLs1oE
Typical bad 'youtube' quality, but you can get the idea of how much fun these cars are on a track like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWwelLs1oE
01-11-2008, 10:28 AM
#140
Tech Elite
Thread Starter
Thanks for the support Eli!
I am working on the GT rules & will post them when finished. In the meantime, keep the suggestions comming. Especially if you plan on running the class.
I fully expect to have to modify the rules, after the first season. The goal is to provide a somewhat less expensive class, that is fun and has appeal to off-roaders and newcommers.
Walt, Claiming rule....Are you suggesting that NO engine restrictions be put in place, other than; someone can buy it for $200? I suppose that would keep the expensive engines out of the mix, except for those that don't have to buy their engines.. Those guys probably won't be racing this class anyway..
Anyway, here is the general idea; On-road cars based on 1/8 buggy platforms. ie. OFNA Ultra GTP, Kyosho IGT, Hot bodies Lightning Street (something like that), and the Power Racing Katana Rally. These are/were available ready to go with on-road body/tires etc. 2 speeds will be allowed and are standard equipment on the rtr cars. Conversions of other buggies will be allowed.
Touring car or sports car bodies only. No buggy or truck bodies.
Rubber tires. Will leave it at that for now.
Engine. This may be the trickiest bit. I am in favor of a .28 displacement max. If we go with a $200 claiming rule, that should keep the expensive alternatives out of the mix.
Any thoughts?
I am working on the GT rules & will post them when finished. In the meantime, keep the suggestions comming. Especially if you plan on running the class.
I fully expect to have to modify the rules, after the first season. The goal is to provide a somewhat less expensive class, that is fun and has appeal to off-roaders and newcommers.
Walt, Claiming rule....Are you suggesting that NO engine restrictions be put in place, other than; someone can buy it for $200? I suppose that would keep the expensive engines out of the mix, except for those that don't have to buy their engines.. Those guys probably won't be racing this class anyway..
Anyway, here is the general idea; On-road cars based on 1/8 buggy platforms. ie. OFNA Ultra GTP, Kyosho IGT, Hot bodies Lightning Street (something like that), and the Power Racing Katana Rally. These are/were available ready to go with on-road body/tires etc. 2 speeds will be allowed and are standard equipment on the rtr cars. Conversions of other buggies will be allowed.
Touring car or sports car bodies only. No buggy or truck bodies.
Rubber tires. Will leave it at that for now.
Engine. This may be the trickiest bit. I am in favor of a .28 displacement max. If we go with a $200 claiming rule, that should keep the expensive alternatives out of the mix.
Any thoughts?
01-11-2008, 11:18 AM
#141
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Yeah, that's how I was thinking the engine rule would work. If you decide to put a $300 engine in your GT class car, anyone in your main can buy the engine, no questions asked, for $200.
No tech, no other rules required (although a .28 max displacement could still be in affect, but isn't much of a rule since I think that's about the biggest displacement you can get in an engine this size anyways).
Even coming with a just broken in $200 engine would be risky, as someone could claim it and although you'd be able to buy another one with the money, you're out the time and effort to properly break it in.
Realistically, with a $200 claim rule, I would only run a brand new $175 engine or a much older 'worn out' engine that originally cost more than that but isn't any good for 1/8th scale anymore anyways.
And I think that even those that don't have to buy their engines don't want to give away a brand-new $500 engine for $200. I think they still have obligations to their sponsors not to sell the engines they get for free.
No tech, no other rules required (although a .28 max displacement could still be in affect, but isn't much of a rule since I think that's about the biggest displacement you can get in an engine this size anyways).
Even coming with a just broken in $200 engine would be risky, as someone could claim it and although you'd be able to buy another one with the money, you're out the time and effort to properly break it in.
Realistically, with a $200 claim rule, I would only run a brand new $175 engine or a much older 'worn out' engine that originally cost more than that but isn't any good for 1/8th scale anymore anyways.
And I think that even those that don't have to buy their engines don't want to give away a brand-new $500 engine for $200. I think they still have obligations to their sponsors not to sell the engines they get for free.
01-11-2008, 04:59 PM
#142
$200.00 claim Rule??
I'm not sure the $200.00 claim rule would work. How are you going to establish a price on a motor? For example.....the Picco P3 list prices vary from $249 down to $195.00. Suggested Retails vary widely. It really wouldn't be hard to come up with an approved motor list.
Walt from what I understand, the guys at Tampa SS Speedway are lining the inside of the v-slicks with duct tape. Two full wraps. That seemed to help eliminate the ballooning effect, and the pinching of the sidewalls.
I went up to Larry's Performance RC today, and they carry an OFNA 1/8th Ultra GTP roller for $165.00(has tires) but that doesn't include Body, motor, servos and electronics. The Ofna does have a RTR on Tower for about $350.00.
Larry's also has the Kyosho IGT Ferrari RTR for like $380.00. The Kyosho's come with a two speed tranny. The other body styles are the aston martin, Calsonic Z car, Subaru and BMW. All look pretty cool
If guys go the Ofna roller route here's and idea of what it would run.
Lotsa guys have radio equipment and servos. So for people just looking to fool around with this class.
Drop in a 150.00 dollar motor.
50.00 pipe
two-speed tranny(roller doesn't come with 2speed)- $80.00
Unpainted Body- $50.00( mclaren, porsche 911, dodge viper or mercedes clk)
Total investment with the roller about $500.00.
Walt from what I understand, the guys at Tampa SS Speedway are lining the inside of the v-slicks with duct tape. Two full wraps. That seemed to help eliminate the ballooning effect, and the pinching of the sidewalls.
I went up to Larry's Performance RC today, and they carry an OFNA 1/8th Ultra GTP roller for $165.00(has tires) but that doesn't include Body, motor, servos and electronics. The Ofna does have a RTR on Tower for about $350.00.
Larry's also has the Kyosho IGT Ferrari RTR for like $380.00. The Kyosho's come with a two speed tranny. The other body styles are the aston martin, Calsonic Z car, Subaru and BMW. All look pretty cool
If guys go the Ofna roller route here's and idea of what it would run.
Lotsa guys have radio equipment and servos. So for people just looking to fool around with this class.
Drop in a 150.00 dollar motor.
50.00 pipe
two-speed tranny(roller doesn't come with 2speed)- $80.00
Unpainted Body- $50.00( mclaren, porsche 911, dodge viper or mercedes clk)
Total investment with the roller about $500.00.
01-11-2008, 06:55 PM
#143
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
With a claim rule you don't have to establish any prices for motors. If you think someone's motor is worth more than $200, you can give them $200 and they have to give up the motor.
If they paid less than $200, as they should have, then they shouldn't mind much... they get to take that money and buy a brand new motor, plus pocket the difference.
If they paid more than $200, then the guy making the claim gets a great deal, and the guy who had to sell his $400 motor for $200 probably decides not to do that again.
The amount of money changing hands whenever a claim is made is always, exactly $200 (or whatever the 'claim' amount is established to be).
A claim rule prevents someone from buying a motor on the 'approved motor list' and then paying gobs of money to have it hand modified. We don't want to make Ron take all the motors apart to tech them... he's too busy wrenching on his own cars for that.
If they paid less than $200, as they should have, then they shouldn't mind much... they get to take that money and buy a brand new motor, plus pocket the difference.
If they paid more than $200, then the guy making the claim gets a great deal, and the guy who had to sell his $400 motor for $200 probably decides not to do that again.
The amount of money changing hands whenever a claim is made is always, exactly $200 (or whatever the 'claim' amount is established to be).
A claim rule prevents someone from buying a motor on the 'approved motor list' and then paying gobs of money to have it hand modified. We don't want to make Ron take all the motors apart to tech them... he's too busy wrenching on his own cars for that.
01-11-2008, 07:06 PM
#144
With a claim rule you don't have to establish any prices for motors. If you think someone's motor is worth more than $200, you can give them $200 and they have to give up the motor.
If they paid less than $200, as they should have, then they shouldn't mind much... they get to take that money and buy a brand new motor, plus pocket the difference.
If they paid more than $200, then the guy making the claim gets a great deal, and the guy who had to sell his $400 motor for $200 probably decides not to do that again.
The amount of money changing hands whenever a claim is made is always, exactly $200 (or whatever the 'claim' amount is established to be).
A claim rule prevents someone from buying a motor on the 'approved motor list' and then paying gobs of money to have it hand modified. We don't want to make Ron take all the motors apart to tech them... he's too busy wrenching on his own cars for that.
If they paid less than $200, as they should have, then they shouldn't mind much... they get to take that money and buy a brand new motor, plus pocket the difference.
If they paid more than $200, then the guy making the claim gets a great deal, and the guy who had to sell his $400 motor for $200 probably decides not to do that again.
The amount of money changing hands whenever a claim is made is always, exactly $200 (or whatever the 'claim' amount is established to be).
A claim rule prevents someone from buying a motor on the 'approved motor list' and then paying gobs of money to have it hand modified. We don't want to make Ron take all the motors apart to tech them... he's too busy wrenching on his own cars for that.
Great idea !
British Menace
01-11-2008, 07:07 PM
#145
With a claim rule you don't have to establish any prices for motors. If you think someone's motor is worth more than $200, you can give them $200 and they have to give up the motor.
If they paid less than $200, as they should have, then they shouldn't mind much... they get to take that money and buy a brand new motor, plus pocket the difference.
If they paid more than $200, then the guy making the claim gets a great deal, and the guy who had to sell his $400 motor for $200 probably decides not to do that again.
The amount of money changing hands whenever a claim is made is always, exactly $200 (or whatever the 'claim' amount is established to be).
A claim rule prevents someone from buying a motor on the 'approved motor list' and then paying gobs of money to have it hand modified. We don't want to make Ron take all the motors apart to tech them... he's too busy wrenching on his own cars for that.
If they paid less than $200, as they should have, then they shouldn't mind much... they get to take that money and buy a brand new motor, plus pocket the difference.
If they paid more than $200, then the guy making the claim gets a great deal, and the guy who had to sell his $400 motor for $200 probably decides not to do that again.
The amount of money changing hands whenever a claim is made is always, exactly $200 (or whatever the 'claim' amount is established to be).
A claim rule prevents someone from buying a motor on the 'approved motor list' and then paying gobs of money to have it hand modified. We don't want to make Ron take all the motors apart to tech them... he's too busy wrenching on his own cars for that.
Great idea !
British Menace
01-11-2008, 08:18 PM
#146
Tech Regular
So what happens if Dude#1 with his big dollar engine says "Nope, not giving you my engine". Does he lose his position for the day..season..gets tied up and we all get to throw rotten eggs at him....what is the penalty?
01-11-2008, 10:20 PM
#147
I've heard of this rule being applied for full sized racing. For instance, (an average) motor dollar amount is first determined for the claim rule. The claim rule may only be applied to only the top 3 of each heat, each class, each or each main, etc. If another competitor decides to claim your engine, then you must give it up (in some instances, the claimee can choose to swap his engine with the claimor's) for the set claimor amount. Therefore, the driver who gets claimed has the option to take the other guy's engine, or use the money to find a new engine. At least that way they can still race.
01-12-2008, 03:07 AM
#148
Tech Regular
Of course I understand it is for the Rally GT class, you checked the price for new engines this year, $200.00 won't buy a piston and sleeve for some engines.
You didn't answer my question.....what happens if racer Dude #1 says "Nope, not giving, swapping or selling my engine" what is done to that guy. I have raced my entire life and know what the concept is. If it is just fear factor than fine, I just want someone to say what the consequences are for a guy that doesn't want to give , swap or sell his engine.
You didn't answer my question.....what happens if racer Dude #1 says "Nope, not giving, swapping or selling my engine" what is done to that guy. I have raced my entire life and know what the concept is. If it is just fear factor than fine, I just want someone to say what the consequences are for a guy that doesn't want to give , swap or sell his engine.
01-12-2008, 04:15 AM
#149
Tech Initiate
Here is a simple question. Would the larger Ofna DM1 be allowed in this class. I just think this car looks cool. Same motor and tire rules would apply.
01-12-2008, 04:41 AM
#150
$200.00 claim Rule??
I think the claim rule of $200.00 does have merit. However after looking at many different sites............and low dollar replacement engines the cheapest halfway reliable engine I saw was around $200.00 The RTR kit motors will not last very long. When a guy goes to replace it.............what will he buy as a replacement......another $100.00 motor that will blow up in a couple of weeks? It's obvious everyone wants to keep the costs down, but in the same train of thought a somewhat more realistic dollar amount for a claim rule might be considered. Perhaps $250.00 or $300.00???? That range of prices on motors will provide a more long lasting reliable motor.
Ted's question really should be addressed. I'm wondering what a guy will say after driving 200 miles to a race event...............runs one qualifier..... has one $200.00 motor..................and someone wants his engine? Opppps....sorry bud.... pack it up and go home??
With this class appropriately being limited to rubber tires, most of the really high dollar big pony motors won't do much good. Rubber tires will limit cornering speeds, and acceleration. From what I understand even the kit motor will just blister the tires on hard acceleration. There really would be no point on using high dollar motors...........unless your the straightaway king.... and that's not where races are won anyway.
Ted's question really should be addressed. I'm wondering what a guy will say after driving 200 miles to a race event...............runs one qualifier..... has one $200.00 motor..................and someone wants his engine? Opppps....sorry bud.... pack it up and go home??
With this class appropriately being limited to rubber tires, most of the really high dollar big pony motors won't do much good. Rubber tires will limit cornering speeds, and acceleration. From what I understand even the kit motor will just blister the tires on hard acceleration. There really would be no point on using high dollar motors...........unless your the straightaway king.... and that's not where races are won anyway.