Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change
01-14-2011, 10:46 AM
#436
.
01-14-2011, 10:49 AM
#437
If you have to blamei a great company like Tekin for improving their products and introducing new technology ?
You have no clue ....
and
The same can be said for this Ex con decision's on stock .
The Ex-con has bundered & put their personal agendas first and now no where in the whole country can you find Roar rules being used .
No one track has the same stock rules now ,.
All ROAR's Fault.
Now days we have two stock class's !!!
What a disaster that's turning into .....
Now days ?
still the same-O-La....
You guys keep killing the new racers entering your on-road sport by not moving up and letting the new guy a chance for some fun .
Hopefully
some day someone will set a example and get the sport back on track....
You have no clue ....
and
The same can be said for this Ex con decision's on stock .
The Ex-con has bundered & put their personal agendas first and now no where in the whole country can you find Roar rules being used .
No one track has the same stock rules now ,.
All ROAR's Fault.
Now days we have two stock class's !!!
What a disaster that's turning into .....
Now days ?
still the same-O-La....
You guys keep killing the new racers entering your on-road sport by not moving up and letting the new guy a chance for some fun .
Hopefully
some day someone will set a example and get the sport back on track....
01-14-2011, 10:56 AM
#438
"Wanted to Make sure and give a big thanks to our first three Class Sponsors
RC America: Modified Touring Car
Tekin: Stock Touring Car
Team Powers: 17.5 12th Scale
Corally USA/ Specialized RC.
Jaco Tires.
Calandra Racing Concepts.
McKune Designs.
With the help from these manufacures and the others we are currently working with It will make a Huge Dent in the cost to put the event on. We are also working on some cool give away items for the racers who attend. We will continue to make announcements as other sponsors come on board."
Just thought the above was interesting from the ROAR carpet national thread. Seems to me Tekin is still a well respected company in this hobby.
Cudo's Tekin for the sponsorship! Still my favorite ESC company!
RC America: Modified Touring Car
Tekin: Stock Touring Car
Team Powers: 17.5 12th Scale
Corally USA/ Specialized RC.
Jaco Tires.
Calandra Racing Concepts.
McKune Designs.
With the help from these manufacures and the others we are currently working with It will make a Huge Dent in the cost to put the event on. We are also working on some cool give away items for the racers who attend. We will continue to make announcements as other sponsors come on board."
Just thought the above was interesting from the ROAR carpet national thread. Seems to me Tekin is still a well respected company in this hobby.
Cudo's Tekin for the sponsorship! Still my favorite ESC company!
01-14-2011, 11:02 AM
#439
Tech Apprentice
Why not have the company that ratted out Tekin for the issues in 208 produce a few of their machines for ROAR so you can spot check ESC's to make sure they're compliant? Clearly they've got the ability to test it now.
What's the concern, that some unscrupulous company will release secret firmware that will allow racers to activate timing in their ESC after it's gone through tech by initiating some trigger sequence? Couldn't that same company just burn a different image into the EEPROM of a non-upgradable ESC that's approved for spec racing? Of course they could. If companies want to facilitate cheating, there's really nothing we can do other than ban their products outright. This preemptive ban is 'cause nobody can keep up with Tekin, and when they try, their ESC's catch on fire.
What's the concern, that some unscrupulous company will release secret firmware that will allow racers to activate timing in their ESC after it's gone through tech by initiating some trigger sequence? Couldn't that same company just burn a different image into the EEPROM of a non-upgradable ESC that's approved for spec racing? Of course they could. If companies want to facilitate cheating, there's really nothing we can do other than ban their products outright. This preemptive ban is 'cause nobody can keep up with Tekin, and when they try, their ESC's catch on fire.
01-14-2011, 11:05 AM
#440
I am sorry to hear that. We do take such things very serious because we are all about doing it right. I am not sure what would make you happy. It went thru the proper channels and a solution was provided. The system worked. I feel no obligation or think it would make any difference to share technical specifics, although I understand the curiosity.
You must at least admit I am one of the few that come in here and get involved at all. My position often evolves as information is presented. Decisions are a process not a mood.
Back to work and finishing the decision process….
The issue is do we BAN programmable esc’s with a blinky mode from the spec class?
The fact is that almost everyone agrees the spec modes and non boosting esc’s are currently equal on the track. No one is complaining about any product being unfair currently. Everything is already in place to make sure it stays that way. We really do not need to change a thing and we can get back to racing.
Fear of cheating is a valid concern. However does it justify a decision to ban thousands of existing programmable esc’s from multiple brands from any class? Is this really in the best interest of everyone or just to satisfy a few with trust issues?
Does this ban actually assure us of anything or are we just making rules for the sake of rules and still dependent on the honor system and the tech process in the end anyway.
Are we making things more complicated and restrictive to NOT solve a problem that does NOT exist?
You must at least admit I am one of the few that come in here and get involved at all. My position often evolves as information is presented. Decisions are a process not a mood.
Back to work and finishing the decision process….
The issue is do we BAN programmable esc’s with a blinky mode from the spec class?
The fact is that almost everyone agrees the spec modes and non boosting esc’s are currently equal on the track. No one is complaining about any product being unfair currently. Everything is already in place to make sure it stays that way. We really do not need to change a thing and we can get back to racing.
Fear of cheating is a valid concern. However does it justify a decision to ban thousands of existing programmable esc’s from multiple brands from any class? Is this really in the best interest of everyone or just to satisfy a few with trust issues?
Does this ban actually assure us of anything or are we just making rules for the sake of rules and still dependent on the honor system and the tech process in the end anyway.
Are we making things more complicated and restrictive to NOT solve a problem that does NOT exist?
I started a thread 2 months back about 208 being illegal and I got slammed by RANDY PIKE (tekin employee and ROAR electric committee member) DAWN SANCHEZ (at the time ROAR Prez) and you the President of Tekin for even implying that 208 was illegal b/c of advance built into it, you also said you just built a better mouse trap (212)!!!! Now several months later you now have to come clean...... TEKIN did not play fair so now the rules have to change.... I don’t understand why so many racers that want to go faster don’t just leave the stock class and move to an "open" speedo class!!!! The fastest 12th scale 17.5 "spec speedo" car at our track uses a Novak Havoc speedo he bought for $70..... Done deal! What is wrong with that? Leave the programmable speedos for the Super Stock & modified classes..... The software is cool, it just does not belong in a "spec" class.
At the Vegas race a Tekin won the “spec” class with the 208. At the ROAR off road nationals a Tekin won the Sportsman “spec” truck class using Tekin 208……. Well, it seems to me that those titles need to be reconsidered (Scotty & ROAR). Also, Tekin should be banned from completion in a “sportsman spec” class in 2011……
SAY NO TO BLINKING LIGHTS!!!!!!!
01-14-2011, 11:06 AM
#441
"Wanted to Make sure and give a big thanks to our first three Class Sponsors
RC America: Modified Touring Car
Tekin: Stock Touring Car
Team Powers: 17.5 12th Scale
Corally USA/ Specialized RC.
Jaco Tires.
Calandra Racing Concepts.
McKune Designs.
With the help from these manufacures and the others we are currently working with It will make a Huge Dent in the cost to put the event on. We are also working on some cool give away items for the racers who attend. We will continue to make announcements as other sponsors come on board."
Just thought the above was interesting from the ROAR carpet national thread. Seems to me Tekin is still a well respected company in this hobby.
Cudo's Tekin for the sponsorship! Still my favorite ESC company!
RC America: Modified Touring Car
Tekin: Stock Touring Car
Team Powers: 17.5 12th Scale
Corally USA/ Specialized RC.
Jaco Tires.
Calandra Racing Concepts.
McKune Designs.
With the help from these manufacures and the others we are currently working with It will make a Huge Dent in the cost to put the event on. We are also working on some cool give away items for the racers who attend. We will continue to make announcements as other sponsors come on board."
Just thought the above was interesting from the ROAR carpet national thread. Seems to me Tekin is still a well respected company in this hobby.
Cudo's Tekin for the sponsorship! Still my favorite ESC company!
01-14-2011, 11:17 AM
#443
Couple of thoughts..... You (Tekin) have made the racer and the race organizer not able to use a blinking light as an ability to confirm a speedo is "legal". It is not possible to bring the proper equipment to the tracks to confirm the speedo’s are within the “spirit of the rules, so we (the racers) have to demand an alternative speedo for the spec classes. Why would I spend $1,000's to go to a race like Snowbirds/Vegas/Cleveland/Etc if the promoter has no ability to prove the blinking lights are within spec? All it takes is a special "team" version of the software that makes the lights blink but offers some advance or boost. People are commenting on not shying away from technology and the fact that we need to embrace it, agree to a point, but most new racers are having enough of a struggle learning the hobby why burden them a lap top to set up a speedo??? Advanced racers, yes, most of them embrace the technology. Remember racers, a spec stock class is meant for newer people to the hobby not some of these sponsored racers that have been around for years and years, that is what is hurting our local track, a new racer shows up and has to race the "spec" class with national champions that should be running a super stock class or mod.
I started a thread 2 months back about 208 being illegal and I got slammed by RANDY PIKE (tekin employee and ROAR electric committee member) DAWN SANCHEZ (at the time ROAR Prez) and you the President of Tekin for even implying that 208 was illegal b/c of advance built into it, you also said you just built a better mouse trap (212)!!!! Now several months later you now have to come clean...... TEKIN did not play fair so now the rules have to change.... I don’t understand why so many racers that want to go faster don’t just leave the stock class and move to an "open" speedo class!!!! The fastest 12th scale 17.5 "spec speedo" car at our track uses a Novak Havoc speedo he bought for $70..... Done deal! What is wrong with that? Leave the programmable speedos for the Super Stock & modified classes..... The software is cool, it just does not belong in a "spec" class.
At the Vegas race a Tekin won the “spec” class with the 208. At the ROAR off road nationals a Tekin won the Sportsman “spec” truck class using Tekin 208……. Well, it seems to me that those titles need to be reconsidered (Scotty & ROAR). Also, Tekin should be banned from completion in a “sportsman spec” class in 2011……
SAY NO TO BLINKING LIGHTS!!!!!!!
I started a thread 2 months back about 208 being illegal and I got slammed by RANDY PIKE (tekin employee and ROAR electric committee member) DAWN SANCHEZ (at the time ROAR Prez) and you the President of Tekin for even implying that 208 was illegal b/c of advance built into it, you also said you just built a better mouse trap (212)!!!! Now several months later you now have to come clean...... TEKIN did not play fair so now the rules have to change.... I don’t understand why so many racers that want to go faster don’t just leave the stock class and move to an "open" speedo class!!!! The fastest 12th scale 17.5 "spec speedo" car at our track uses a Novak Havoc speedo he bought for $70..... Done deal! What is wrong with that? Leave the programmable speedos for the Super Stock & modified classes..... The software is cool, it just does not belong in a "spec" class.
At the Vegas race a Tekin won the “spec” class with the 208. At the ROAR off road nationals a Tekin won the Sportsman “spec” truck class using Tekin 208……. Well, it seems to me that those titles need to be reconsidered (Scotty & ROAR). Also, Tekin should be banned from completion in a “sportsman spec” class in 2011……
SAY NO TO BLINKING LIGHTS!!!!!!!
01-14-2011, 11:26 AM
#444
SAY NO TO BLINKING LIGHTS!!!!!!!
You think that the other ESC companies aren't constantly testing and evaluating competitors products to determine their legality? How do you think the error with V208 was even found? And since it was, the most logical conclusion is that the spec blinky light mode is being pretty well policed at this point. So far there has been 1 issue since the whole blinky spec mode ESC, so I guess we just condemn the whole thing now. If the world was run by people like you we would never achieve anything. 1 error and we just scrap everything
01-14-2011, 11:29 AM
#445
As was stated before software and hardware are not so easy to combine as one might think. "0" degree timing is also not really "0" timing. Otherwise the motor would probably not even run or way out of effeciency rate. It needs some timing to run. People see an artifical "0" as true zero but that just isn't the case. It depends on the hardware and sofware and how you interpret what "0" is. (which isn't "0", it is only by name). As stated with real "0" timing the motor would not run. For simplicity sake, people made something as "0" just to make it simple to understand for the end users (you).
If you select timing advance in a tekin esc (timing based on sensorless measurements) and set it at 0 you will be running 0 timing. 17.5's will run very poorly, but an 8th scale motor is close to full performance.
I do agree that 0 on sensored motors is in no way 0 and that the timing ticks are all relative.
Couple of thoughts..... You (Tekin) have made the racer and the race organizer not able to use a blinking light as an ability to confirm a speedo is "legal". It is not possible to bring the proper equipment to the tracks to confirm the speedo’s are within the “spirit of the rules, so we (the racers) have to demand an alternative speedo for the spec classes. Why would I spend $1,000's to go to a race like Snowbirds/Vegas/Cleveland/Etc if the promoter has no ability to prove the blinking lights are within spec? All it takes is a special "team" version of the software that makes the lights blink but offers some advance or boost. People are commenting on not shying away from technology and the fact that we need to embrace it, agree to a point, but most new racers are having enough of a struggle learning the hobby why burden them a lap top to set up a speedo??? Advanced racers, yes, most of them embrace the technology. Remember racers, a spec stock class is meant for newer people to the hobby not some of these sponsored racers that have been around for years and years, that is what is hurting our local track, a new racer shows up and has to race the "spec" class with national champions that should be running a super stock class or mod.
I started a thread 2 months back about 208 being illegal and I got slammed by RANDY PIKE (tekin employee and ROAR electric committee member) DAWN SANCHEZ (at the time ROAR Prez) and you the President of Tekin for even implying that 208 was illegal b/c of advance built into it, you also said you just built a better mouse trap (212)!!!! Now several months later you now have to come clean...... TEKIN did not play fair so now the rules have to change.... I don’t understand why so many racers that want to go faster don’t just leave the stock class and move to an "open" speedo class!!!! The fastest 12th scale 17.5 "spec speedo" car at our track uses a Novak Havoc speedo he bought for $70..... Done deal! What is wrong with that? Leave the programmable speedos for the Super Stock & modified classes..... The software is cool, it just does not belong in a "spec" class.
At the Vegas race a Tekin won the “spec” class with the 208. At the ROAR off road nationals a Tekin won the Sportsman “spec” truck class using Tekin 208……. Well, it seems to me that those titles need to be reconsidered (Scotty & ROAR). Also, Tekin should be banned from completion in a “sportsman spec” class in 2011……
SAY NO TO BLINKING LIGHTS!!!!!!!
I started a thread 2 months back about 208 being illegal and I got slammed by RANDY PIKE (tekin employee and ROAR electric committee member) DAWN SANCHEZ (at the time ROAR Prez) and you the President of Tekin for even implying that 208 was illegal b/c of advance built into it, you also said you just built a better mouse trap (212)!!!! Now several months later you now have to come clean...... TEKIN did not play fair so now the rules have to change.... I don’t understand why so many racers that want to go faster don’t just leave the stock class and move to an "open" speedo class!!!! The fastest 12th scale 17.5 "spec speedo" car at our track uses a Novak Havoc speedo he bought for $70..... Done deal! What is wrong with that? Leave the programmable speedos for the Super Stock & modified classes..... The software is cool, it just does not belong in a "spec" class.
At the Vegas race a Tekin won the “spec” class with the 208. At the ROAR off road nationals a Tekin won the Sportsman “spec” truck class using Tekin 208……. Well, it seems to me that those titles need to be reconsidered (Scotty & ROAR). Also, Tekin should be banned from completion in a “sportsman spec” class in 2011……
SAY NO TO BLINKING LIGHTS!!!!!!!
01-14-2011, 11:38 AM
#446
The ROAR Onroad Paved nats "spec" class was won with an LRP TC Sphere agains Tekin's and 208! I was there! So?
This has already been adressed. There are a FULL set of rules now that cannot be misunderstood and must be met. Dead horse. We will NOT devulge any information which we feel is proprietary, ever. For this reason alone I personally will not answer questions about this. This manner was handled properly between Tekin and ROAR.
You simply must consider that there is a REASON why all the other esc manufacturers still have not caught up to us in boosted mode. One could say that since the others can't keep up, we're simply being banned for it...
01-14-2011, 11:45 AM
#447
I started a thread 2 months back about 208 being illegal and I got slammed by RANDY PIKE (tekin employee and ROAR electric committee member) DAWN SANCHEZ (at the time ROAR Prez) and you the President of Tekin for even implying that 208 was illegal b/c of advance built into it, you also said you just built a better mouse trap (212)!!!! Now several months later you now have to come clean...... TEKIN did not play fair so now the rules have to change.... I don’t understand why so many racers that want to go faster don’t just leave the stock class and move to an "open" speedo class!!!! The fastest 12th scale 17.5 "spec speedo" car at our track uses a Novak Havoc speedo he bought for $70..... Done deal! What is wrong with that? Leave the programmable speedos for the Super Stock & modified classes..... The software is cool, it just does not belong in a "spec" class.
EA
01-14-2011, 11:55 AM
#448
Tech Master
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Why does it seem like what is wanted is class separation based on skill, but everybody keeps trying to tackle it with equipment? What is the excuse for the "new guy" going to be when everyone runs spec speedo and motor and he/she still gets lapped?
01-14-2011, 12:11 PM
#449
Tech Champion
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This isn’t only Tekin that’s going to be on the outside looking in “IF” ROAR goes away from boosted ESC's. This thread should be renamed the "Tekin Martyr" talk session…the same company that people are trying to blame for this new rule because they cant keep up is going to be on the outside looking in if this is approved as well. Other then they have a more extensive product line and Tekin doesn’t they might not be as affected. Whos fault is it that Tekin isnt offering cheap ESCs? I bet if this passes Tekin will be selling a new ESC….along with other companies too. Both ROAR and Tekin lead us to this point. All it looks like is that ROAR is looking at not repeating history...yet they are the Devil in all of this.
IF ROAR goes to a non programmable ESC it would have to be a hand out or one thats only used for that race and other MFG's will be used at other ROAR events. This way there is no reason for the MFG to cheat....everyone racing at that event will use the same ESC and guess what someone will have to win with their ESC. If the ESC is cheap enough this will be possible.....just like we use to have hand out motors....now it will have to be hand out ESCs...."IF" this all passes....in 2012.
IF ROAR goes to a non programmable ESC it would have to be a hand out or one thats only used for that race and other MFG's will be used at other ROAR events. This way there is no reason for the MFG to cheat....everyone racing at that event will use the same ESC and guess what someone will have to win with their ESC. If the ESC is cheap enough this will be possible.....just like we use to have hand out motors....now it will have to be hand out ESCs...."IF" this all passes....in 2012.
01-14-2011, 12:18 PM
#450
@ Xpress ..... There is no excuse for him except the fact that as a NEWBIE, he starts off like everyone else has. Now he's just gotta get his ass more track time like we all have. And in that SIMPLE SCENARIO, this doesn't take into account his learning curve, set-up capability, hand-eye coordination or maintaining of his equipment. And even when he does become proficient to a large degree, what will be the 'cop out' excuse at this time when some of his same peers are still lapping him?
This is all too complex to just say its "about this" or "about that"....let ROAR do its thing for ORGANIZED SANCTIONED RACING, and the local tracks around the country will follow all....follow some....or choose to follow none of the rules.
GEEZ....some of you guys are 'touched in the head'
*my last statement WAS NOT a pointed statement at you Xpress*
This is all too complex to just say its "about this" or "about that"....let ROAR do its thing for ORGANIZED SANCTIONED RACING, and the local tracks around the country will follow all....follow some....or choose to follow none of the rules.
GEEZ....some of you guys are 'touched in the head'
*my last statement WAS NOT a pointed statement at you Xpress*