MurfDogg Synergy Brushless Motors
09-21-2010, 02:38 PM
#106
Tech Elite
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 5280 Raceway. Denver's finest RC facility
Posts: 4,780
Are these motors your own design or are you buying them from another source? How much development did you actually put into these? I have been on the fence to buy one but I have heard mixed storys from your IIC trip. You claim to have been in contention for a win. Exactly what class was it in? Is it true the CRC guys pulled the motors out of there cars and went back to the Duos? I just want to make sure I get my moneys worth as I personally think the price quoted me was a touch inflated. Thanks!
09-21-2010, 04:11 PM
#108
Murf,
when you say "but we overtimed and over geared them" do you mean that your end bell motor timing was too high and your gearing was too light ie 30mm rollout as oposed to 40mm?
How did you diagnose this? was it simply by motor temp or feel?
What would you suggest a base setup for one of your 17.5 motors and an rs?
interesting that you would use a fair amount of push control, atleast thats the impression i had from your other post.
when you say "but we overtimed and over geared them" do you mean that your end bell motor timing was too high and your gearing was too light ie 30mm rollout as oposed to 40mm?
How did you diagnose this? was it simply by motor temp or feel?
What would you suggest a base setup for one of your 17.5 motors and an rs?
interesting that you would use a fair amount of push control, atleast thats the impression i had from your other post.
09-21-2010, 04:36 PM
#109
XRAY - The sweet spot for these motors is between -5 and 10 degrees of endbell timing. The guys I had running the motors ALWAYS run DUO motors, and never run lower than 10 degrees. They insisted we try them between 15 and 20 degrees, which I figured was higher than optimal from all of my testing prior, but they needed to feel like they were in the right range on timing and gear. By running so much timing, we took the motor out of the sweet spot in the powerband, and ended up drawing too many amps causing fade later in the run. During these runs, the motor would fade 0.6 - 0.7 seconds after 8 minutes. Motor Temps never exceeded 135*F.
With single cell, the motors do not fade from motor heat as much as they fade from voltage drop. In 2cell racing, you maintain much higher voltage throughout the run, so you do not experience the same fade that you do in single cell. Overtiming, and overgearing a motor causes more amp draw, which sucks more voltage from your pack than an optimally timed and geared setup. This is why you aim for a 0.3 - 0.4 second fade throughout your 8 minute 12th scale run. This is how you know you are in the right range.
In Dave Erlich's cars, we ran MUCH less timing, (-5 to 8 degrees depending on wind and class) and slightly taller gear ratios. His motors would fade only 0.2 seconds in Modified, and 0.3 in 13.5 12th and 10.5 WGT.
Monte Hess actually didnt have any fade in 17.5 TC non Boost class, and he ran low timing and a MUCH taller gear than most everyone else. In WGT 13.5, his car would fade only 0.2 - 0.3 seconds from start to finish, telling me that we found the sweet spot for that car and class.
Our best runs, powerwise, had motors come off the track between 102* and 126* F in Non Boost classes, and between 135* and 165* F in Boosted classes. In 12th Modified, Dave Erlich never came off the track above 105*F after 8 minutes.
Biggest thing I learned at IIC:
Single Cell motor timing, gearing, and ESC setups differ GREATLY from 2 cell setups.
As far as setting up for my 17.5, I need to know what kind of car, track, and other details to point you in the right direction.
The single cell cars really seemed to benefit from 10 -20 on the Push Control setting on the RS ESC's. Made the cars smoother, more consistent, and dropped lap times for the drivers I saw using it.
I used Push Control for the first time this past weekend, but it was in 2 cell high bite dirt oval racing. It did not make my car faster, but it made it easier to predict what the car was going to do bacause of the bumps entering the corner. So in all, it made my job as a driver much easier. This was in a 10.5 class, and I was running a rotor measuring at 1732, so it had ALOT of magnet which means alot of "drag"...
I hope I answered all of your questions.
Matt
With single cell, the motors do not fade from motor heat as much as they fade from voltage drop. In 2cell racing, you maintain much higher voltage throughout the run, so you do not experience the same fade that you do in single cell. Overtiming, and overgearing a motor causes more amp draw, which sucks more voltage from your pack than an optimally timed and geared setup. This is why you aim for a 0.3 - 0.4 second fade throughout your 8 minute 12th scale run. This is how you know you are in the right range.
In Dave Erlich's cars, we ran MUCH less timing, (-5 to 8 degrees depending on wind and class) and slightly taller gear ratios. His motors would fade only 0.2 seconds in Modified, and 0.3 in 13.5 12th and 10.5 WGT.
Monte Hess actually didnt have any fade in 17.5 TC non Boost class, and he ran low timing and a MUCH taller gear than most everyone else. In WGT 13.5, his car would fade only 0.2 - 0.3 seconds from start to finish, telling me that we found the sweet spot for that car and class.
Our best runs, powerwise, had motors come off the track between 102* and 126* F in Non Boost classes, and between 135* and 165* F in Boosted classes. In 12th Modified, Dave Erlich never came off the track above 105*F after 8 minutes.
Biggest thing I learned at IIC:
Single Cell motor timing, gearing, and ESC setups differ GREATLY from 2 cell setups.
As far as setting up for my 17.5, I need to know what kind of car, track, and other details to point you in the right direction.
The single cell cars really seemed to benefit from 10 -20 on the Push Control setting on the RS ESC's. Made the cars smoother, more consistent, and dropped lap times for the drivers I saw using it.
I used Push Control for the first time this past weekend, but it was in 2 cell high bite dirt oval racing. It did not make my car faster, but it made it easier to predict what the car was going to do bacause of the bumps entering the corner. So in all, it made my job as a driver much easier. This was in a 10.5 class, and I was running a rotor measuring at 1732, so it had ALOT of magnet which means alot of "drag"...
I hope I answered all of your questions.
Matt
Last edited by The MurfDogg; 09-21-2010 at 04:46 PM.
09-21-2010, 05:12 PM
#110
Tech Apprentice
Spdy - I do not know who you talked to from IIC, however, I was working with Team CRC. Not an official deal, but I volunteered my time and efforts to them. I asked them to try motors. I expected none of them to race with my stuff, as single cell onroad was very new to me. They ran my motors for the first round of practice, but we overtimed and over geared them. They ran strong up front and started to fade. This was a BIG race, so we all decided its best to run the motors they are comfortable with. Because practice at IIC seeds you for qualifying, I did not want them to give up a run trying anything.
Dave Erlich left my motors in his cars and ran strong all week long.
Monte Hess was running DUO motors in his cars and was barely making the back of the top 10 in 13.5 WGT. He put my motors in his cars, and with what we learned from the CRC guys, we timed them lower, and geared them up, and he picked up 4 tenths of a second per lap... not on just his fast lap, but his avarage from start to finish.
In the A-Main, Monte was shadowing the leader, and pedalled the car at the end of the straight so he didnt drive thru the leader. He made a dive in tothe chicane to attempt a pass for the lead, and snagged the board. By the time he got off the board he was almost getting lapped. With three minutes to go, he put his head down and rallied up to finish fourth. He had a great car, and loved the power he had.
As far as development goes. I spent 18+ months developing these motors. I just went production on them, as I was finaaly convinced they were worthy of my companies name.
If you think my price is too high, well, I guess Im sorry we will not be doing business. I am not selling Discount bargain bin motors. I sell high quality racing motors, built with top quality materials.
Matt
Dave Erlich left my motors in his cars and ran strong all week long.
Monte Hess was running DUO motors in his cars and was barely making the back of the top 10 in 13.5 WGT. He put my motors in his cars, and with what we learned from the CRC guys, we timed them lower, and geared them up, and he picked up 4 tenths of a second per lap... not on just his fast lap, but his avarage from start to finish.
In the A-Main, Monte was shadowing the leader, and pedalled the car at the end of the straight so he didnt drive thru the leader. He made a dive in tothe chicane to attempt a pass for the lead, and snagged the board. By the time he got off the board he was almost getting lapped. With three minutes to go, he put his head down and rallied up to finish fourth. He had a great car, and loved the power he had.
As far as development goes. I spent 18+ months developing these motors. I just went production on them, as I was finaaly convinced they were worthy of my companies name.
If you think my price is too high, well, I guess Im sorry we will not be doing business. I am not selling Discount bargain bin motors. I sell high quality racing motors, built with top quality materials.
Matt
for a motor from someone I haven't heard of until I came across these threads. You bet I am going to ask questions. Also if you care to share how you "DYNO tune" these motors? I don't recall seeing any type of dynoing device in your pit area unless it was the gauss meter you were using.You last thing "As far as development goes. I spent 18+ months developing these motors. I just went production on them, as I was finaaly convinced they were worthy of my companies name." So are you say you are producing these and not someone else?
09-21-2010, 07:08 PM
#112
[QUOTE=
If you think my price is too high, well, I guess Im sorry we will not be doing business. I am not selling Discount bargain bin motors. I sell high quality racing motors, built with top quality materials.
Matt[/QUOTE]
Love it! my kinda dude! i will be getting a 13.5 real soon from ya.
If you think my price is too high, well, I guess Im sorry we will not be doing business. I am not selling Discount bargain bin motors. I sell high quality racing motors, built with top quality materials.
Matt[/QUOTE]
Love it! my kinda dude! i will be getting a 13.5 real soon from ya.
09-22-2010, 10:38 AM
#113
Yes they are both pretty good drivers but guess what, so were the people they were racing against. This isn't a case of a couple pros running against a bunch of noobs at a club race.
09-22-2010, 04:55 PM
#114
Obviously you took offense to my post if that is the case then you sir are not worth my money. I asked simple questions based merely on your posts and what I witnessed at IIC. All I am saying is I saw some of the CRC guys with the motor in their cars and when quals started they were back to Duo's. Hence the reason I asked for a bit of confirmation on your " contention to a win at IIC". Can I ask without you getting offended again how many people actually ran your motors at the IIC? You named 2 people whom are pretty talented drivers to begin with. I am sure if you strapped a mabuchi motor in their cars they could still qualify better then the average Joe. I am not here to bash you in anyway but if I am going to pay $90 for a motor from someone I haven't heard of until I came across these threads. You bet I am going to ask questions. Also if you care to share how you "DYNO tune" these motors? I don't recall seeing any type of dynoing device in your pit area unless it was the gauss meter you were using.
You last thing "As far as development goes. I spent 18+ months developing these motors. I just went production on them, as I was finaaly convinced they were worthy of my companies name." So are you say you are producing these and not someone else?
for a motor from someone I haven't heard of until I came across these threads. You bet I am going to ask questions. Also if you care to share how you "DYNO tune" these motors? I don't recall seeing any type of dynoing device in your pit area unless it was the gauss meter you were using.You last thing "As far as development goes. I spent 18+ months developing these motors. I just went production on them, as I was finaaly convinced they were worthy of my companies name." So are you say you are producing these and not someone else?
My dyno was in my Hotel room. I didnt want everyone and there mother bringing me stuff to dyno. You surely saw me enter and exit the race room more than anyone all week long ...lol. I use a Competition Electronics Dyno, so it actually puts a load on the motor.
I had about 7 racers race with my motors, and about 12 guys tried them. Tim Copp also made the 13.5WGT main and he ran my stuff. There was not an influx of my motors at this race. This was the official public debut of them.
I believe my price for motors is low by industry standards.
I do not manufacture these motors myself. They, like most other motors are built in Asia. Building them in the USA is not cost effective, especially for a tiny one man company like MurfDogg.
Once again, sorry for getting defensive, but I missed the tone of your message.
Matt
09-22-2010, 07:25 PM
#117
Tech Adept
iTrader: (10)
Are these motors your own design or are you buying them from another source? How much development did you actually put into these? I have been on the fence to buy one but I have heard mixed storys from your IIC trip. You claim to have been in contention for a win. Exactly what class was it in? Is it true the CRC guys pulled the motors out of there cars and went back to the Duos? I just want to make sure I get my moneys worth as I personally think the price quoted me was a touch inflated. Thanks!
09-23-2010, 03:11 PM
#118
Thanks Monte... I appreciate your support.
EA - Having you stand behind me, says alot about my motors, as I know how well respected you are as a motor man, and a racer. I appreciate your support very much.
Spdy - You should have introduced yourself to me at IIC, as I would have answered any questions you had there, and explained in detail anything you wanted to know. You obviously knew where my pit area was setup, as you saw my gauss meter. That is why I was at IIC. To make contact with the racers, and answer any questions they had, as well as to help anyone in anyway possible.
I offered my services to Team Xray, Team CRC, Team Speed Merchant, and Team Hot Bodies. Would have gone to AE, but they had Sean and Rick, so they were well in control of their situation. I make myself available to ALL RACERS at the track, no matter what you are running, or who you run for.
Matt
EA - Having you stand behind me, says alot about my motors, as I know how well respected you are as a motor man, and a racer. I appreciate your support very much.
Spdy - You should have introduced yourself to me at IIC, as I would have answered any questions you had there, and explained in detail anything you wanted to know. You obviously knew where my pit area was setup, as you saw my gauss meter. That is why I was at IIC. To make contact with the racers, and answer any questions they had, as well as to help anyone in anyway possible.
I offered my services to Team Xray, Team CRC, Team Speed Merchant, and Team Hot Bodies. Would have gone to AE, but they had Sean and Rick, so they were well in control of their situation. I make myself available to ALL RACERS at the track, no matter what you are running, or who you run for.
Matt
