Brushed or Brushless?
09-16-2003, 03:16 PM
#31
with apologies to those who care and please i am not trying to be rude so please dont take it personal alot of people
the majority id say 95 percent of the hobby doesnt care i dont care if they develope it or not as do the other part of that 95% its buisness if they want to succede than theyll take the risk on the hope that the product sells it self.
if there were more intrest in it than it would be different but ask around all your local racetracks and ask what they think atleast here in florida they dont care. the few that do are just people that are playing at home. like i said i want one for my play truck. its not a totally bad idea.
if i saw that it was the savior of r/c then go for it but its not. at least for now.
hey guys i am not knocking it down completly but aslong as the fast guys arent using it or the racing bodies dont allow it i wont worry to much about it.
its not fear its that we know its not ready remember that..
the majority id say 95 percent of the hobby doesnt care i dont care if they develope it or not as do the other part of that 95% its buisness if they want to succede than theyll take the risk on the hope that the product sells it self.
if there were more intrest in it than it would be different but ask around all your local racetracks and ask what they think atleast here in florida they dont care. the few that do are just people that are playing at home. like i said i want one for my play truck. its not a totally bad idea.
if i saw that it was the savior of r/c then go for it but its not. at least for now.
hey guys i am not knocking it down completly but aslong as the fast guys arent using it or the racing bodies dont allow it i wont worry to much about it.
its not fear its that we know its not ready remember that..
09-16-2003, 03:23 PM
#32
Tech Initiate
I personally think brushless will be the future for increased run times, multiple output settings (mod, stock, etc.) and virtually no maintenance (comm cutting, brush replacement, etc.) and it is ultimately cheaper (maintenance costs). Yet, it still has much room for improvement.
Overall though, I feel it needs to get more standardized so multiple manufacturers can make components instead of full systems ala Novak. This will allow specialists to more quickly refine and improve the technology which will make it more attractive to customers and more profitable for the companies.
This way Novak can focus on the ESC can come up with tighter tolerances, more adjustability, cooler running, whatever. And motor specialists can focus on making the motor better/more efficient, lighter, cheaper, whatever.
To get there though, we will need a standarized system like the brushed world has so everyone's components work together. One main company isn't going to be able to do it alone.
As far as "limiting" motor tunability -- how long have brushed motors been around, and how long has it taken them to get them to the current system of "tunability"? Imagine what could be done with that amount of time on BL systems. I think the same level of adjustability could be present -- although without having to buy countless sets of brushes and all the tools necessary to maintain a motor.
As far as the racing is concerned -- any restrictions will push the focus elsewhere. I personally would rather have that put on driving and setup skills than on motor tuning. For the meantime, why not allow both technologies in the same modified class? Who says it has to be one over the other? In modified, anything should go (that includes the body as well, but that's a different story...
)
Overall though, I feel it needs to get more standardized so multiple manufacturers can make components instead of full systems ala Novak. This will allow specialists to more quickly refine and improve the technology which will make it more attractive to customers and more profitable for the companies.
This way Novak can focus on the ESC can come up with tighter tolerances, more adjustability, cooler running, whatever. And motor specialists can focus on making the motor better/more efficient, lighter, cheaper, whatever.
To get there though, we will need a standarized system like the brushed world has so everyone's components work together. One main company isn't going to be able to do it alone.
As far as "limiting" motor tunability -- how long have brushed motors been around, and how long has it taken them to get them to the current system of "tunability"? Imagine what could be done with that amount of time on BL systems. I think the same level of adjustability could be present -- although without having to buy countless sets of brushes and all the tools necessary to maintain a motor.
As far as the racing is concerned -- any restrictions will push the focus elsewhere. I personally would rather have that put on driving and setup skills than on motor tuning. For the meantime, why not allow both technologies in the same modified class? Who says it has to be one over the other? In modified, anything should go (that includes the body as well, but that's a different story...
)
09-16-2003, 03:56 PM
#33
Hey speed.....feeling a little outnumbered!! I think you're going to find that your feelings are not as widely accepted as you think. I truly believe that electric drivers, in particular, are tuned in to some of the most current info out there. Your arguments are a bit antiquated. It's inevitable that this technology will become the next generation of rc electric power. Crono man brought up another situation that IS happening even if you don't want it to. LiPoly IS the battery of our near future. These cells will demand a more efficient motor. The logic is simple.....a brushed motor can't utilise the benefits of these cells. IE: a brushed motor can't be run for the time that a LiPoly cell would allow. You want max available power for an 8-10 minute race....you got it!! But not with a brushed motor in your car !!!!
The point has also been made that your beloved "tuning" will always be available BUT the method will change. This is NOT a bad thing. As for the cost.....apparently you're not listening to those who have already written about the existing systems. Even now....with limited market acceptence....brushless isn't that much more expensive than the systems you are so fond of. A high end ESC and a Mod motor are real close in total cost.
So the question you have to answer would be......"If all things were equal regarding performance and tuning options but you now have a system that requires little or no maintenence, why on earth would you want a brushed motor??"
Wanna make a bet that we see a system of this caliber within a year???
BTW...nice to hear you other guys making these comments in favor of Brushless. I think we all know that if we support the efforts....the result will be that the technology becomes available that much quicker.
The point has also been made that your beloved "tuning" will always be available BUT the method will change. This is NOT a bad thing. As for the cost.....apparently you're not listening to those who have already written about the existing systems. Even now....with limited market acceptence....brushless isn't that much more expensive than the systems you are so fond of. A high end ESC and a Mod motor are real close in total cost.
So the question you have to answer would be......"If all things were equal regarding performance and tuning options but you now have a system that requires little or no maintenence, why on earth would you want a brushed motor??"
Wanna make a bet that we see a system of this caliber within a year???
BTW...nice to hear you other guys making these comments in favor of Brushless. I think we all know that if we support the efforts....the result will be that the technology becomes available that much quicker.
09-16-2003, 04:34 PM
#34
Tech Apprentice
Originally posted by Evoracer
So the question you have to answer would be......"If all things were equal regarding performance and tuning options but you now have a system that requires little or no maintenence, why on earth would you want a brushed motor??"
Wanna make a bet that we see a system of this caliber within a year???
So the question you have to answer would be......"If all things were equal regarding performance and tuning options but you now have a system that requires little or no maintenence, why on earth would you want a brushed motor??"
Wanna make a bet that we see a system of this caliber within a year???
09-16-2003, 05:26 PM
#35
Tech Adept
speedxl brings out a valid point...theres still NO brushless system that will equal the weight AND performance of a high end brushed setup.
the hacker systems will eat brushed motor for lunch but it doesnt the have throttle control and is too expensive!
the novak has VERY smooth power control but the esc still needs to lose some weight and the motor it is not equal to a 7-9t motor.
But consider this now that novak has finished developping their emaxx bl setup their next target is the "pro" version of the SS.
From what i gather their aim is a gt7 sized speedo with a motor that equals a 8t motor...When that system is released(and 100% sure it will be in 1 year max)then the TRUE brushless era will start.
because brushed will have no more advantages over bl.
The standardisation issue
1.EVERY car bl motor on the market respect ROARs dimensional restrictions.
2.A sensorless esc can run both a sensored and sensorless motors but not vice versa
3.So the only hurdles left is for bl makers to choose one path sensorless or sensored and stick with it, imo i think sensored will dominate for 6cells car use.
This time the revolution will not come from the top 5% of factory drive but from the grass root racers.
the hacker systems will eat brushed motor for lunch but it doesnt the have throttle control and is too expensive!
the novak has VERY smooth power control but the esc still needs to lose some weight and the motor it is not equal to a 7-9t motor.
But consider this now that novak has finished developping their emaxx bl setup their next target is the "pro" version of the SS.
From what i gather their aim is a gt7 sized speedo with a motor that equals a 8t motor...When that system is released(and 100% sure it will be in 1 year max)then the TRUE brushless era will start.
because brushed will have no more advantages over bl.
The standardisation issue
1.EVERY car bl motor on the market respect ROARs dimensional restrictions.
2.A sensorless esc can run both a sensored and sensorless motors but not vice versa
3.So the only hurdles left is for bl makers to choose one path sensorless or sensored and stick with it, imo i think sensored will dominate for 6cells car use.
This time the revolution will not come from the top 5% of factory drive but from the grass root racers.
09-16-2003, 06:04 PM
#36
Here in Australia we run Brushless along with brushed in Mod. I have ran a BL motor for over a year and have not taken it out of the car now. It's like buying a good servo, after you put it in your car you forget about it and it performs.
The novak is too slow but the Hacker is the same as a top level 8 turn brushed motor. A lot of people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Everybody has they views but just listen to a guy that has been running one for a while.
I don't think Sensored motors are not the way of the future, other manufactures have gone that way and returned back to S/less which is much fater.
If your talking cost for the Hacker setup is too dear then you can't see the big picture can you. Price up a top level speed control and two mod motors then come back to me.
Game over, for soldering stuff every run.
Coxy.
The novak is too slow but the Hacker is the same as a top level 8 turn brushed motor. A lot of people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Everybody has they views but just listen to a guy that has been running one for a while.
I don't think Sensored motors are not the way of the future, other manufactures have gone that way and returned back to S/less which is much fater.
If your talking cost for the Hacker setup is too dear then you can't see the big picture can you. Price up a top level speed control and two mod motors then come back to me.
Game over, for soldering stuff every run.
Coxy.
09-16-2003, 06:23 PM
#37
Tech Apprentice
There are NO advantages of a brushed motor.
there is a very large advantage to a brushed motor, PRICE. You can get a very good mod motor for only $60 to $70 not $250
09-16-2003, 06:41 PM
#38
So you use that mod motor for 1 or 2 races and now you have to buy brushes. At 1-2 races per set you might as well buy a few. Oh and how much did the Comm Lathe cost you?? Oops.....chipped a diamond bit....hmmmm.....thats another bundle?? Are you starting to see any benefit to brushless yet??
09-16-2003, 07:25 PM
#39
Tech Adept
Originally posted by igkyoa
there is a very large advantage to a brushed motor, PRICE. You can get a very good mod motor for only $60 to $70 not $250
there is a very large advantage to a brushed motor, PRICE. You can get a very good mod motor for only $60 to $70 not $250
novaks brushless motor listed at 85$
reedy Kr listed at 70$
some d5 motors listed 80$
Now can you imagine in 2years time
09-16-2003, 07:36 PM
#40
Wow i still cant believe you morons around the world are still arguing about whether to run BL, Coxy and i went out on a limb a year ago and bought a couple of Hacker 6 turn systems, they eat all brushed motors for accelaration and top end, (they actually wheel spin on asphalt with fowams) yes the throttle is not very smooth, but you learn to deal with it, i dont even take my iron and lathe to the track, and the only time i even go anywhere near the motor is when i want to change rollout.
Give me a break regarding cost, how many motors, brushes etc would you use in a year of weekly racing? Game over go and buy a system, and then im sure the development of BL will skyrocket.
Dont let narrow minded attitudes and marketing propaganda dictate where your dollar goes
Give me a break regarding cost, how many motors, brushes etc would you use in a year of weekly racing? Game over go and buy a system, and then im sure the development of BL will skyrocket.
Dont let narrow minded attitudes and marketing propaganda dictate where your dollar goes
09-16-2003, 10:18 PM
#41
who sells the hacker system?
09-16-2003, 11:29 PM
#42
I would not bother with the novak brushless system. I think they are behind on the curve. Those that have never seen a brushless run will think the novak is awesome. Those that have seen the others will know it is not. I used to like Novak but think they lost their edge a few years ago and don't make a quality products. Maybe their engineers need to go back to school. Not trying to grind any axe just not satified with a product meant to breakdown.
Look to Europe there are many good companies that have been doing brushless for years. Hacker, Lerhner, Shultze, etc.... You can search them on the web. Boats and Planes have been using them for years.
A friend of mine has a Hacker and Novak... He is totally unhappy with the novak. The Hacker we were easily doing wheelys with his truck in the yard to the point where it was uncontrollably fast. His sedan with the Hacker was keeping up with my 10 turn he had crappy batteries (2200s). His runtime was 2 minutes beyond mine when I was running good Batts (gp3300s).
Eventually I will get a brushless system probably will wait until it becomes more legal for the races I goto.
Coop
Look to Europe there are many good companies that have been doing brushless for years. Hacker, Lerhner, Shultze, etc.... You can search them on the web. Boats and Planes have been using them for years.
A friend of mine has a Hacker and Novak... He is totally unhappy with the novak. The Hacker we were easily doing wheelys with his truck in the yard to the point where it was uncontrollably fast. His sedan with the Hacker was keeping up with my 10 turn he had crappy batteries (2200s). His runtime was 2 minutes beyond mine when I was running good Batts (gp3300s).
Eventually I will get a brushless system probably will wait until it becomes more legal for the races I goto.
Coop
09-17-2003, 04:20 AM
#43
There was a note from a German driver on the Evo3 thread that mentioned Hacker was developing a new system specifically for touring cars. Should be interesting!!!!!
09-17-2003, 06:47 AM
#44
long live brushless!
as a lazy nitro driver who hated the idea of ;
-brushess
-comm lathes
-rebuilds
etc
the brushless system was a godsend. i purchased a hacker 6T with a hacker comp esc. it is awesome! down one of the largest track in NSW australia, it is a few clicks slower than my jp modifed with new 3300mah gp packs. it has so much power that, yes. it wheelspins from standstill. there is so much power and punch that for a part time electric racer like myself (nitro is first love) i really don't have to bother to much with rollout.
i also haven't done anything to my hacker since i purchased it. just brush it down and focus on setup! the problem is now i have no excuses for not performing well. i have all the time in the world in the pits....and i still can't perfect my setup.
i did find that the large hacker esc to discombobulate (
) my setup on my evo3 surikarn a bit. making the right heavier than the left. i guess this is going to be fixed with my new s9550 servo that is arriving. with this setup the hacker esc fits lying down.
shults, a german co make a really small esc. i think one of the australian board users (coxy) was using it. any info on it coxy? i would be interested in using it.
brushless is definatley the way to go. don't bother with novak until their second gen stuff comes out. get the hacker with a comp esc.
cons
the motor system has a lag on the throttle which is rather annoying. you have to dial it out with the throttle trim. but the dead spot is rather annoying. the engine feels like it is either on or off at really low revs. ie no 1 to 200rpm rev range. just 200rpm onwards (that's only a example the numbers aren't specific)
-brushess
-comm lathes
-rebuilds
etc
the brushless system was a godsend. i purchased a hacker 6T with a hacker comp esc. it is awesome! down one of the largest track in NSW australia, it is a few clicks slower than my jp modifed with new 3300mah gp packs. it has so much power that, yes. it wheelspins from standstill. there is so much power and punch that for a part time electric racer like myself (nitro is first love) i really don't have to bother to much with rollout.
i also haven't done anything to my hacker since i purchased it. just brush it down and focus on setup!
the problem is now i have no excuses for not performing well. i have all the time in the world in the pits....and i still can't perfect my setup.i did find that the large hacker esc to discombobulate (
) my setup on my evo3 surikarn a bit. making the right heavier than the left. i guess this is going to be fixed with my new s9550 servo that is arriving. with this setup the hacker esc fits lying down. shults, a german co make a really small esc. i think one of the australian board users (coxy) was using it. any info on it coxy? i would be interested in using it.
brushless is definatley the way to go. don't bother with novak until their second gen stuff comes out. get the hacker with a comp esc.
cons
the motor system has a lag on the throttle which is rather annoying. you have to dial it out with the throttle trim. but the dead spot is rather annoying. the engine feels like it is either on or off at really low revs. ie no 1 to 200rpm rev range. just 200rpm onwards (that's only a example the numbers aren't specific)
Last edited by VenomWorldOrder; 09-17-2003 at 06:53 AM.
09-17-2003, 01:26 PM
#45
guys your not getting it i said its ok at this point for the hobbiest until they perfect it it will not hit mainstream evo your saying see how everfybody here is against me thats i guess all the brushed guys dont care you invited me here and until the systems are perfected they wont be raced in competition they may make endurance races for them but smell the coffe you guys are the 5% of the racing crowd for it and were probably the ones that couldnt figure out the brushed motors.
hey evo if you from florida have you ever been to a florida state series race and if yes ask every one what they think about brushless and report back out of a hundred guys maybe 5 to 6 will say sound cool and the rest will say screw that because they cant be tuned when you get the real world
view and not the view of the 7 or 9 guys on here ganging up on the only guy with balls to argue on behalf of the brushed motor crowd dont say that the majority want it or that the 5% factory guys are the only ones that dont wanted its the other 99.9 of the racers that dont want it its only you guys that play with these cars at home. go into the real world and ask the racer and report the truth not youre biased view point, i am open minded if the motors were accepted by the mass then i would use it buty for now it'll sit inn my monster truck.
hey evo if you from florida have you ever been to a florida state series race and if yes ask every one what they think about brushless and report back out of a hundred guys maybe 5 to 6 will say sound cool and the rest will say screw that because they cant be tuned when you get the real world
view and not the view of the 7 or 9 guys on here ganging up on the only guy with balls to argue on behalf of the brushed motor crowd dont say that the majority want it or that the 5% factory guys are the only ones that dont wanted its the other 99.9 of the racers that dont want it its only you guys that play with these cars at home. go into the real world and ask the racer and report the truth not youre biased view point, i am open minded if the motors were accepted by the mass then i would use it buty for now it'll sit inn my monster truck.