Matched Cell Problems.
01-14-2007, 06:42 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Mosc_007
Ok. I am comparing "Untouched" Cells. Maybe the Sanyo doesnt come up when zapped and matched like the Chinese cells do.
But with my latest experiances with Matched Cells I think I would prefer Untouched cells. Even if they are a little lower in voltage. Their is one thing that is certain. These Sanyo's I just bought are %100 better than the last 2 sets of matched Chinese cells I bought.
After I test them properly I will see what the real figures are comparing them to "Untouched" Chinese cells.
I would have assumed people are not matching them because of the Price. Japanese mades cells are a LOT more expensive than chinese cells. And in my experiance Japanese cells are more reliable than Chinese ones.
As has been stated by one matcher "I have had 1000's of IB4200's Die during matching". That alone is enough for me to stay away from those cells. Even if they are ok when you get them how long will they last ?.... They just dont survive the complete thrashing they get when being matched.
I see another person just posted a message with Zero'd cells. It seems that matching the IB4200's destroys them quite often ........
Charles
But with my latest experiances with Matched Cells I think I would prefer Untouched cells. Even if they are a little lower in voltage. Their is one thing that is certain. These Sanyo's I just bought are %100 better than the last 2 sets of matched Chinese cells I bought.
After I test them properly I will see what the real figures are comparing them to "Untouched" Chinese cells.
I would have assumed people are not matching them because of the Price. Japanese mades cells are a LOT more expensive than chinese cells. And in my experiance Japanese cells are more reliable than Chinese ones.
As has been stated by one matcher "I have had 1000's of IB4200's Die during matching". That alone is enough for me to stay away from those cells. Even if they are ok when you get them how long will they last ?.... They just dont survive the complete thrashing they get when being matched.
I see another person just posted a message with Zero'd cells. It seems that matching the IB4200's destroys them quite often ........
Charles
01-14-2007, 06:46 PM
#17
Charles
In my opinion i think you are blameing some GREAT cells that have been neglected by others . A lot of shops dont care and more than likely dont know the characteristics of NiMh cells ,or any cells in my experience,or proper care and maintainance required for them/
If they can buy 100 packs cheap and make huge profits on them .They dont care how long they sit on the shelves for..Any battery will discharge over time and destroy itself if not properly cared for.
You cant compare a Matched cell with a raw cell. Its like trying to compare your fuel injected highly tuned V8 to an old leyland normally aspirated motored that has been sitting in a shed for 20 yrs??
Sure matching is a little harder on cells BUT it weeds out the weeker cells which means the conusmer is getting a better product and lesser chance of a cell dying sooner than later..
Whether it be a matched or Raw cell packs. Batteries are subjected to huge amounts of strain when they are in service, Which can be at times up to hundred of amps, abused by being re-peaked ,over chargeing,dropped,knocked around in cars etc etc which is always beyond the manufactures recommendations so you will always get failures due to these circumstances..
Also it doesnt necessary mean if a batt is below .9 volts That it is a DUD..
Perhaps the consumers shoudl do a little research, direct a few questions to the people that are in the industry Ask if they are warrantied etc etc before purchase.
There are a few retailers or retail sales people who dont know their products ,whether it is due to ignorance or the fact that they just have to much stock to be able to have this knowledge to give to people
I back my products and i am sure the other local guys do the same..All of my cells are re-checked before distribution
9 times out of 10 it is not the product at fault but the way it has been handled ,stored packed ,used etc etc
Tony
In my opinion i think you are blameing some GREAT cells that have been neglected by others . A lot of shops dont care and more than likely dont know the characteristics of NiMh cells ,or any cells in my experience,or proper care and maintainance required for them/
If they can buy 100 packs cheap and make huge profits on them .They dont care how long they sit on the shelves for..Any battery will discharge over time and destroy itself if not properly cared for.
You cant compare a Matched cell with a raw cell. Its like trying to compare your fuel injected highly tuned V8 to an old leyland normally aspirated motored that has been sitting in a shed for 20 yrs??
Sure matching is a little harder on cells BUT it weeds out the weeker cells which means the conusmer is getting a better product and lesser chance of a cell dying sooner than later..
Whether it be a matched or Raw cell packs. Batteries are subjected to huge amounts of strain when they are in service, Which can be at times up to hundred of amps, abused by being re-peaked ,over chargeing,dropped,knocked around in cars etc etc which is always beyond the manufactures recommendations so you will always get failures due to these circumstances..
Also it doesnt necessary mean if a batt is below .9 volts That it is a DUD..
Perhaps the consumers shoudl do a little research, direct a few questions to the people that are in the industry Ask if they are warrantied etc etc before purchase.
There are a few retailers or retail sales people who dont know their products ,whether it is due to ignorance or the fact that they just have to much stock to be able to have this knowledge to give to people
I back my products and i am sure the other local guys do the same..All of my cells are re-checked before distribution
9 times out of 10 it is not the product at fault but the way it has been handled ,stored packed ,used etc etc
Tony
01-14-2007, 06:54 PM
#18
Originally Posted by cannon
Charles,
You need to learn a lot about the current crop of cells. Yes the IBcells have a relatively high failure rate as do all of the high voltage cells. This unfortunately is part of a problem being addresssed by the manufacturers.
However, whoever sold you the Sanyo cells is a bigger crook because these cells are so uncompetitive Sanyo virtually vanished from the market a couple of years ago. Yes they will most probably still show 1.1 volts but that is the best they will be. All other brands are achieving 1.23-1.24 volts which means you will be laps behind.
It has nothing to do with price. The simple fact is that Sanyo are poor performing cells.
This post is not aimed at you but rather the fact that there is a bit of misunderstanding on your behalf. You could give new racers the impression that the Sanyo cells are better ... which they are NOT
You need to learn a lot about the current crop of cells. Yes the IBcells have a relatively high failure rate as do all of the high voltage cells. This unfortunately is part of a problem being addresssed by the manufacturers.
However, whoever sold you the Sanyo cells is a bigger crook because these cells are so uncompetitive Sanyo virtually vanished from the market a couple of years ago. Yes they will most probably still show 1.1 volts but that is the best they will be. All other brands are achieving 1.23-1.24 volts which means you will be laps behind.
It has nothing to do with price. The simple fact is that Sanyo are poor performing cells.
This post is not aimed at you but rather the fact that there is a bit of misunderstanding on your behalf. You could give new racers the impression that the Sanyo cells are better ... which they are NOT
01-14-2007, 07:20 PM
#19
Tech Initiate
I bought 4 sets of IB 3800 matched cells from feral batteries 8 months ago and not one of these pack can be used now due to one or more cells failing. They where great at first then one by one they just turned to crap, got very high resistance and lucky to charge to 3000Mah at 6amps. I would charge them up, all looked good, and they would just dump on the first lap. I also bought prior to that some IB3600 unmatched dirty dozen from Harris RC for use for practise and these are still charging well, lower resistance with good volts. We spend a lot of money on so called good batteries and they are lucky to last 6 months. WTF. I have some old GP3300 that are getting better figures than newer IB3800. I am not blaming the sellers or matches of these but maybe the manufacturers need a wake up call, what is there acceptable failure rate 1 in 5. And yes before any one says it I have cared for these batteries as suggested by the sellers, to the letter, they cost tooooo much not to.
01-14-2007, 07:56 PM
#21
Sand muncher... I am sad to see that you have had problems with some packs. I dont think I have had IB3800 packs for sale for nearly 12months however.
Cells that have been zapped are more susceptible to filure than unzapped cells so this is most likely why your Dirty Dozen" is still going.
You said you were doing all the right things....I assume that you have an equaliser tray that doesn't go below 0.9 volts and that you keep a charge in the cells when not in use? An equalier is most probably the most important piece of equipment. Without it your packs fail a lot earlier.
Unfortunately, most racers accept that you get between 6-12 months life from the current crop of cells. Some drivers will complain at this but you must also look at the price. 3-4 years ago you were paying $150 per pack ... now you are paying $75 per pack. That puts it into perspective as well.
Cells that have been zapped are more susceptible to filure than unzapped cells so this is most likely why your Dirty Dozen" is still going.
You said you were doing all the right things....I assume that you have an equaliser tray that doesn't go below 0.9 volts and that you keep a charge in the cells when not in use? An equalier is most probably the most important piece of equipment. Without it your packs fail a lot earlier.
Unfortunately, most racers accept that you get between 6-12 months life from the current crop of cells. Some drivers will complain at this but you must also look at the price. 3-4 years ago you were paying $150 per pack ... now you are paying $75 per pack. That puts it into perspective as well.
01-14-2007, 08:36 PM
#22
Tech Initiate
You are right cannon, it would be closer to 12 months ago, but what i was getting at is these battery packs that are matched seem to have cells that fail due to them being matched and they also seem to self destruct quicker than the older packs. Is this due to the higher voltages packed into each cell and the stress from newer motors like the Co27 that where built for these higher voltage packs. Or is it that most matchers are now mating at 30 to 35 amps ???. I have just noticed that these IB4200 packs seem to wear out a lot quicker than some of the smaller packs and that you have to buy new packs every 3 to 6 months to have top packs for an event.
I discarge packs after racing with a Trinity Dyna Pulse, let them cool then the next day put about 500mah charge into them then store them till the day before racing then discharge them and stick them in an equalising tray, I like the Tekin Battery Doctor 8.0, I charge them at 6amp - 3mv per cell on an Orion Advantage charger with the Temp sensor on with a 45 deg C cut out.
Am i doing anything wrong, please tell me if i am. I do all this and the cells just drop in their quality.
I discarge packs after racing with a Trinity Dyna Pulse, let them cool then the next day put about 500mah charge into them then store them till the day before racing then discharge them and stick them in an equalising tray, I like the Tekin Battery Doctor 8.0, I charge them at 6amp - 3mv per cell on an Orion Advantage charger with the Temp sensor on with a 45 deg C cut out.
Am i doing anything wrong, please tell me if i am. I do all this and the cells just drop in their quality.
01-14-2007, 08:40 PM
#23
3-4 years ago you were paying $150 per pack ... now you are paying $75 per pack. That puts it into perspective as well.
01-14-2007, 08:43 PM
#24
We are getting 4200mah and 1.23+ volts out of the same size container that we were getting 1400mah and 1.0 from just a few years ago. The offset of this increased performance seems to be longevity and stability.
I have had quite a few packs over the last year with very few failures, the most recent being my fault by letting the cell sit uncharged for too long (forgot about my packs after flying home from thailand).
I have got packs that i use for practice packs that are IB3800 and IB4200 st series and are still going strong. I find that you run your 5 minute race and leave them. Next time you go to use them discharge, and charge using 5.5amps, 3mv cutoff. I only tray every half dozen charges to keep them close to each other.
Everyone i know who over prepps their packs seems to have issues with cell failures.
I have had quite a few packs over the last year with very few failures, the most recent being my fault by letting the cell sit uncharged for too long (forgot about my packs after flying home from thailand).
I have got packs that i use for practice packs that are IB3800 and IB4200 st series and are still going strong. I find that you run your 5 minute race and leave them. Next time you go to use them discharge, and charge using 5.5amps, 3mv cutoff. I only tray every half dozen charges to keep them close to each other.
Everyone i know who over prepps their packs seems to have issues with cell failures.
01-14-2007, 09:03 PM
#25
I've had issues with cells, esp the new IB4200 WC cells... I had some provided by a reputable and popular matcher (overseas)..
the numbers are awesome, the performance is mind blowing, but the reliability of the cells is poor.
two or three of my pack's showed dead cells after a couple of runs...
I was talking with others at the QLD nats about this, including a well known local matcher
and was told that the WC cells can indeed be a bit flakey, with a lot of poor cells coming in.. etc.
I guess thats what you get.
My previous lot of matched 3800's were excellent, and I'm still using them. They cant match my new cells for performance, but they are damn reliable and are still excellent after around 6 months of fortnightly use.
numbers are getting higher, numbers sell packs, unfortunately reliability and performance suffers.
I'm looking forward to seeing some stable cells!
the numbers are awesome, the performance is mind blowing, but the reliability of the cells is poor.
two or three of my pack's showed dead cells after a couple of runs...
I was talking with others at the QLD nats about this, including a well known local matcher
and was told that the WC cells can indeed be a bit flakey, with a lot of poor cells coming in.. etc.I guess thats what you get.
My previous lot of matched 3800's were excellent, and I'm still using them. They cant match my new cells for performance, but they are damn reliable and are still excellent after around 6 months of fortnightly use.
numbers are getting higher, numbers sell packs, unfortunately reliability and performance suffers.
I'm looking forward to seeing some stable cells!
01-14-2007, 09:56 PM
#26
Originally Posted by Mosc_007
Beware, Matching these new technology cells quite often destroys them.....
If you buy direct from a battery supplier as opposed to a hobby store, you will find that their battery stocks are rotated relatively fast. As is the case with feralbatteries.
As also mentioned the current crop of batteries are not as stable so you should also take care when building your batteries. If you are not sure i would suggest you would be better off having your supplier build up your packs if they have the service, instead of trying to save a few bucks.
01-14-2007, 10:16 PM
#27
Originally Posted by mangoman
Mosc_007 i dont think anyone has confirmed that matching cells destroys them as mentioned a number of these times in this thread its more a case of cells sitting on the shelf for long periods which is the problem.
If you buy direct from a battery supplier as opposed to a hobby store, you will find that their battery stocks are rotated relatively fast. As is the case with feralbatteries.
As also mentioned the current crop of batteries are not as stable so you should also take care when building your batteries. If you are not sure i would suggest you would be better off having your supplier build up your packs if they have the service, instead of trying to save a few bucks.
If you buy direct from a battery supplier as opposed to a hobby store, you will find that their battery stocks are rotated relatively fast. As is the case with feralbatteries.
As also mentioned the current crop of batteries are not as stable so you should also take care when building your batteries. If you are not sure i would suggest you would be better off having your supplier build up your packs if they have the service, instead of trying to save a few bucks.
01-14-2007, 10:39 PM
#28
I have been using ib3800s for 13 months now and have seen a little dip in performance after say 3 months and then have remained stable. I charge at 5amps though. That said, although the cells havn't gone bad so to speak, as i make run time with a 7 turn, they are just uncompetative in spec classes such as 19 turn. I just cant compete with others in 19 turn because of there higher voltage lower ir 4200's.
01-15-2007, 02:23 AM
#29
Cells that have been zapped are more susceptible to filure than unzapped cells so this is most likely why your Dirty Dozen" is still going.
Having sad that - I'm impressed that anyone has any IB3600 packs that are still race worthy - a lot of those cells were really average after 6-12 months. Everyone found that.
And yes, the 4200WC cells have a high failure rate - ask any matcher (even the big ones - SMC and co) and they will tell you the same thing. Occasionally, they let go for no good reason - even when you do EVERYTHING right - and there's not a lot you can do about it. The best insurance is to buy off a reputable local supplier/matcher, who will stand behind their product. If they're good, they'll send you a replacement cell the next day or thereabouts, and you'll be back on the track before you know it. Service is a big thing.
As for resting voltage, tend to agree - you absolutely need to store the WC packs with charge in them. We have always put at least 500sec back into the packs before storage. Cells are one thing where you really should get either from the matcher, or from a shop/dealer that turns over cells VERY regularly.
-Scott
