Clarity for GT engine spec
12-20-2013, 01:09 PM
#16
5-port spec is a stupid rule. Yes, it prevents the buy of very expensive 9 port engines but any 5 port engine can be modded to 9-port performance and if you want to go real crazy you can mount a (modded) 5-port P/S set into a 9-port engine.
It would be better to say a single exhaust port engine to rule out all faster motors which always do have a multi exhaust port.
It would be better to say a single exhaust port engine to rule out all faster motors which always do have a multi exhaust port.
12-20-2013, 03:50 PM
#17
5-port spec is a stupid rule. Yes, it prevents the buy of very expensive 9 port engines but any 5 port engine can be modded to 9-port performance and if you want to go real crazy you can mount a (modded) 5-port P/S set into a 9-port engine.
It would be better to say a single exhaust port engine to rule out all faster motors which always do have a multi exhaust port.
It would be better to say a single exhaust port engine to rule out all faster motors which always do have a multi exhaust port.
My main heartburn is over the exclusion of a motor that comes with a viable car kit that has been on the market for several years. I'll join the '5 port .21 crowd' with no hard feelings. I can use my Sirio .24 in Texas !!!
12-20-2013, 03:55 PM
#18
Thanks Kyosho fan!!!! That's the angle on the answer I was hoping to get. The elimination of the Sirio .24 makes no sense, but neither did '6mm' inlet. I'm glad they bumped to '7mm'. I've got as much as 14 min. run time here 'at altitude' w/7.5mm inlet on that Siro .24. I was starting to like the idea of trying for '1 pit stop' for a 30 min. main on that 6mm inlet.
Glad to see your Kyosho enthusiasm. If we can get that 'caster issue' resolved and get the "K car" to turn it'll be fun.
Thanks for your 'on target' response. I'd just like to hear from ROAR the 'rationale' for bumping the Sirio .24. Thus far I can't find a 'chat link' or 'suggestion box' to get to the point of their choice. I do have a '.21 5-port' in the inventory now. I have considered the Maxy motor..........we used to run his fuel and loved it. I've also seen the Reds 5 port run (during breakin) and it was pretty interesting. I still may try to find a Sirio .21 to exact some revenge 'for his bigger brother'!!!!!!
Glad to see your Kyosho enthusiasm. If we can get that 'caster issue' resolved and get the "K car" to turn it'll be fun.
Thanks for your 'on target' response. I'd just like to hear from ROAR the 'rationale' for bumping the Sirio .24. Thus far I can't find a 'chat link' or 'suggestion box' to get to the point of their choice. I do have a '.21 5-port' in the inventory now. I have considered the Maxy motor..........we used to run his fuel and loved it. I've also seen the Reds 5 port run (during breakin) and it was pretty interesting. I still may try to find a Sirio .21 to exact some revenge 'for his bigger brother'!!!!!!
12-23-2013, 03:19 AM
#19
I do not agree... Yes, for starters this is the ideal thought but even when starters are running a while and factory drivers are taking the win because of advanced equipments and unlimited budgets the must admit the rules must go tighter to prevent the fun is taken out the hobby.....
When I say the less rules, we mean to have sufficient rules to let everyone have fun. Try and not bore people with lots of rules that they can not follow easily. you live in US and you say that they have to use a body that is only sold in Japan will just kill that class due to cost.
I basically set one rule that governs them all. As an organizer and racer, if I can not abide by a rule than that rule is redundant and unnecessary. and the reason I can not abide by it must be a hindrance of some sort that takes the fun out of the hobby and/or increases the cost.
Rules needs to be sufficient enough for the region the race event is being held. For example, if we used the IGT8F rules directly, there will be no races as we do not have that engine or the tuned pipe here in Turkey. hell we do not have any of the bodies thats being mentioned in the rules
When I see people complaining about "factory drivers always winning due to equipment" it just makes me laugh. there is a reason they are factory drivers...
Super spec Rules I created was to level the competition on set equipment so that the talent of the Factory drivers can be seen and people can learn something. you all have the same equipment, so if someone is 5 secs faster than you, while some people will say they are cheating, it is the talent and the experience of a pilot that gets him to lead the pack.
Spec rules are for countries where there are more than one car manufacturer available.
I think the following is the minimum requirement for spec class:
Engine, manifold exhaust set, Tires and Fuel.
Second to that list is Body. but I usually keep it out of the equation due to the appeal of different bodies on people. One likes a Ferrari the other likes a Mclaren.
12-23-2013, 03:22 AM
#20
No engine modding allowed rule supported by having the engines opened and checked works great. if we find that someone has "tinkered" with the engines and claims they didnt "know", we make them pull apart their engine after "each race" so they "know" and never "forget"
of course if they give an answer such as " who cares".... you know what happens....
of course if they give an answer such as " who cares".... you know what happens....
12-23-2013, 04:46 AM
#21
Tech Apprentice
I do not agree... Yes, for starters this is the ideal thought but even when starters are running a while and factory drivers are taking the win because of advanced equipments and unlimited budgets the must admit the rules must go tighter to prevent the fun is taken out the hobby.....
12-23-2013, 07:03 AM
#22
No engine modding allowed rule supported by having the engines opened and checked works great. if we find that someone has "tinkered" with the engines and claims they didnt "know", we make them pull apart their engine after "each race" so they "know" and never "forget"
of course if they give an answer such as " who cares".... you know what happens....
of course if they give an answer such as " who cares".... you know what happens....
Yes, you can always look to the marks of hand grinding but with the right machines it is not visable. Also I can modify an engine with simple tools and you will find nothing to the P/S/R set and crankshaft.
Even then... with so many engines possible, combining the best parts is not controlable. Like an offroad engine with the crankshaft of an onroad engine...
Rules must be controlable, that is not!
12-23-2013, 09:10 AM
#23
@ToughBeard
If you want to carry REDS Products, let me know I'm sure the Factory would love to have you as a dealer.
Plus IGT8F is about promoting on road racing through the GT8 class, weather you follow or rules exactly or not has nothing to really do with it. Being part of the our organization to grow and improve the class is.
I personally think your Super SPEC GT8 Class is Awesome! You are following the guidelines of a True SPEC class. You set what is allowed, keep the multiple choices out of the equation and JUST RACE!!
Obviously you will have to adjust your rules to what is available in your region and to brands that support you. It just makes it simple.
@Roelof
Like in any competitive sport, there will always be cheaters, LOL
This is one of the main reasons I kept my Spec motor to a company that dosen't have a ton of interchangeable options. But has specs for every part in each motor that can be verified by weight and a few key points.
I also plan on implementing something I have seen in real car racing. If someone is suspected of cheating win or lose. The accuser has the option to buy the (cheaters) motor for the full price of a new one.
If accused cheater refuses or denies, well then there is your answer if he might be doing something questionable.
Personally I don't cheat so if I win in Spec and someone accuses me of cheating or just wants to buy my motor. Im good with that
If you want to carry REDS Products, let me know I'm sure the Factory would love to have you as a dealer.
Plus IGT8F is about promoting on road racing through the GT8 class, weather you follow or rules exactly or not has nothing to really do with it. Being part of the our organization to grow and improve the class is.
I personally think your Super SPEC GT8 Class is Awesome! You are following the guidelines of a True SPEC class. You set what is allowed, keep the multiple choices out of the equation and JUST RACE!!
Obviously you will have to adjust your rules to what is available in your region and to brands that support you. It just makes it simple.
@Roelof
Like in any competitive sport, there will always be cheaters, LOL
This is one of the main reasons I kept my Spec motor to a company that dosen't have a ton of interchangeable options. But has specs for every part in each motor that can be verified by weight and a few key points.
I also plan on implementing something I have seen in real car racing. If someone is suspected of cheating win or lose. The accuser has the option to buy the (cheaters) motor for the full price of a new one.
If accused cheater refuses or denies, well then there is your answer if he might be doing something questionable.
Personally I don't cheat so if I win in Spec and someone accuses me of cheating or just wants to buy my motor. Im good with that
Last edited by tonylunatic; 12-23-2013 at 09:38 AM.
12-23-2013, 10:44 AM
#24
@Roelof
Like in any competitive sport, there will always be cheaters, LOL
This is one of the main reasons I kept my Spec motor to a company that dosen't have a ton of interchangeable options. But has specs for every part in each motor that can be verified by weight and a few key points.
Like in any competitive sport, there will always be cheaters, LOL
This is one of the main reasons I kept my Spec motor to a company that dosen't have a ton of interchangeable options. But has specs for every part in each motor that can be verified by weight and a few key points.
Non modified.... For a Novarossi teamdriver it is possible to get a 5-port engine with Virtus specs directly from the production line. Is this cheating or just an interpretation of the rules? Rules must make sense with as less interpretation possible, a number of ports just isn't!
12-23-2013, 11:26 AM
#25
What is cheating if the rules aren't clear?
Non modified.... For a Novarossi teamdriver it is possible to get a 5-port engine with Virtus specs directly from the production line. Is this cheating or just an interpretation of the rules? Rules must make sense with as less interpretation possible, a number of ports just isn't!
Non modified.... For a Novarossi teamdriver it is possible to get a 5-port engine with Virtus specs directly from the production line. Is this cheating or just an interpretation of the rules? Rules must make sense with as less interpretation possible, a number of ports just isn't!
Are you agreeing or disagreeing to the rules or stating you want more rules that are more specific rules??
Whats so hard to understand if said director said only Nova P5 motors allowed.
In your scenario, you believe a Team Driver would ask for a P5 with modified internals from the factory or buy and or modify it himself.
Thats allot of effort, to win or cheat to win.
Not mention in most cases Novarossi Team drivers have to send motors they get back to the factory for analysis.
My plan eliminates allot of these variables.
You buy said such motor for the street price of a new P5.
Why risk getting caught cheating first and for most.
And if your really that paranoid, might need a different hobby.
12-23-2013, 11:45 AM
#26
If you are a good engine tuner and break it in properly, why do you ever need to mod an engine? Since I started running GT, I have never modded an engine; all my engines have been box stock. I have made many A-mains and many podium finishes with box stock engines. Some racers need to concentrate more on driving better lines and putting better set-ups on their cars instead of trying to mod an engine to the max to be the "fastest". There have been many guys in the past that I finished in front of that had engines "modded to the max" but could not finish a race due to some sort of engine issue.
As far as the rule itself, a 5-port with 7mm carb restrictor is pretty clear. Onroad .21s should stay with the 8th scale pan cars. These cars are not designed and aren't meant to go as fast as their pan-chassis counterpart. If you want that kind of speed, just run a pan chassis with the big boys. GT was originally set up to be a lower cost alternative to 200mm and 8th scale Lola with an emphasis on fun, as well as being competitive. It seems like too many are forgetting to have "fun" trying to be overly "competitive".
As far as the rule itself, a 5-port with 7mm carb restrictor is pretty clear. Onroad .21s should stay with the 8th scale pan cars. These cars are not designed and aren't meant to go as fast as their pan-chassis counterpart. If you want that kind of speed, just run a pan chassis with the big boys. GT was originally set up to be a lower cost alternative to 200mm and 8th scale Lola with an emphasis on fun, as well as being competitive. It seems like too many are forgetting to have "fun" trying to be overly "competitive".
12-23-2013, 11:56 AM
#27
With only a Nova P5 you will go close to a spec class but then you have to rely on Novarossi that every P5 is the same, from own experience with a spec class in the last 3 years using the N21-5T and also with several other models outside the spec class it is not...
The 1st N21-5T engine had a M.E.S. exhaust port but low crankshaft timing. The later models had different crank bore (8.5 and 9.5mm) and differences in timings. Then last year all were very stable with very good specs until this year where we have seen versions with a single exhaust port...
OK, all with almost the same performance but you need different gearings to get near same performance but even then there are differences. With this knowledge it is easy to get the best out of it with parts from several engines (as it is done in many spec classes). Is this cheap? NO!
The 1st N21-5T engine had a M.E.S. exhaust port but low crankshaft timing. The later models had different crank bore (8.5 and 9.5mm) and differences in timings. Then last year all were very stable with very good specs until this year where we have seen versions with a single exhaust port...
OK, all with almost the same performance but you need different gearings to get near same performance but even then there are differences. With this knowledge it is easy to get the best out of it with parts from several engines (as it is done in many spec classes). Is this cheap? NO!
12-23-2013, 11:59 AM
#28
If you are a good engine tuner and break it in properly, why do you ever need to mod an engine? Since I started running GT, I have never modded an engine; all my engines have been box stock. I have made many A-mains and many podium finishes with box stock engines. Some racers need to concentrate more on driving better lines and putting better set-ups on their cars instead of trying to mod an engine to the max to be the "fastest". There have been many guys in the past that I finished in front of that had engines "modded to the max" but could not finish a race due to some sort of engine issue.
As far as the rule itself, a 5-port with 7mm carb restrictor is pretty clear. Onroad .21s should stay with the 8th scale pan cars. These cars are not designed and aren't meant to go as fast as their pan-chassis counterpart. If you want that kind of speed, just run a pan chassis with the big boys. GT was originally set up to be a lower cost alternative to 200mm and 8th scale Lola with an emphasis on fun, as well as being competitive. It seems like too many are forgetting to have "fun" trying to be overly "competitive".
As far as the rule itself, a 5-port with 7mm carb restrictor is pretty clear. Onroad .21s should stay with the 8th scale pan cars. These cars are not designed and aren't meant to go as fast as their pan-chassis counterpart. If you want that kind of speed, just run a pan chassis with the big boys. GT was originally set up to be a lower cost alternative to 200mm and 8th scale Lola with an emphasis on fun, as well as being competitive. It seems like too many are forgetting to have "fun" trying to be overly "competitive".
I see this whole thing playing out as such....
ROAR GT8 will be the "STOCK" Class with their set rules. Going back to the past history of GT racing.
And IGT8F, Pan American Grand Prix and Byrons Nitro Challenge will be around for those who like to be challenged and like going ridiculously FASSSSSST!!
Either way there will be choices each racer will make for themselves.
12-23-2013, 12:05 PM
#29
With only a Nova P5 you will go close to a spec class but then you have to rely on Novarossi that every P5 is the same, from own experience with a spec class in the last 3 years using the N21-5T and also with several other models outside the spec class it is not...
The 1st N21-5T engine had a M.E.S. exhaust port but low crankshaft timing. The later models had different crank bore (8.5 and 9.5mm) and differences in timings. Then last year all were very stable with very good specs until this year where we have seen versions with a single exhaust port...
OK, all with almost the same performance but you need different gearings to get near same performance but even then there are differences. With this knowledge it is easy to get the best out of it with parts from several engines (as it is done in many spec classes). Is this cheap? NO!
The 1st N21-5T engine had a M.E.S. exhaust port but low crankshaft timing. The later models had different crank bore (8.5 and 9.5mm) and differences in timings. Then last year all were very stable with very good specs until this year where we have seen versions with a single exhaust port...
OK, all with almost the same performance but you need different gearings to get near same performance but even then there are differences. With this knowledge it is easy to get the best out of it with parts from several engines (as it is done in many spec classes). Is this cheap? NO!
Curious what is your solution to the dilemma?
12-23-2013, 01:40 PM
#30
Original rules submitted said any .21-.28 engine. pretty simple ....tech gone. The only way to have true spec would be to hand out engines to break in.