STOCK MOTORS
07-07-2007, 11:18 PM
#16
The robitronic is a good unit, but it still suffers a bit from the fact it is also guessing on the torque.....at least it can test at 7+ volts if needed. It's software is also hands down better than the fantom. From a production standpoint, its pretty sweet because the test are easily repeateably and fast.....
The CE Turbodyno is the best dyno you can buy.....problems with it......software is WAY WAY dated.....which makes it not look so nice for the customer and really cuts short some data, but the worst problem is the massive amount of care that needs to be taken of the slave motor, which makes getting consistent repeatable results a must....
I personally hate all dynos.......I never use them at the track and we never use them at the big races.....
Dynos will be a bigger deal in brushless though.......not from a tuning standpoint really, but more of a cherrypick the best motor you can find standpoint.
Later EddieO
Later EddieO
The CE Turbodyno is the best dyno you can buy.....problems with it......software is WAY WAY dated.....which makes it not look so nice for the customer and really cuts short some data, but the worst problem is the massive amount of care that needs to be taken of the slave motor, which makes getting consistent repeatable results a must....
I personally hate all dynos.......I never use them at the track and we never use them at the big races.....
Dynos will be a bigger deal in brushless though.......not from a tuning standpoint really, but more of a cherrypick the best motor you can find standpoint.
Later EddieO
Later EddieO
07-07-2007, 11:44 PM
#17
Thanks Eddie ...
I just been wondering why when i have asked those in the "know", why we hav`nt tried to used a dyno to inforce a power limit for stock motor`s, the answer has been, "it can`t be done"...
Yet it still seem`s to me, perfectly reasonable to believe a dyno could be used to tech stock motor`s....
I just been wondering why when i have asked those in the "know", why we hav`nt tried to used a dyno to inforce a power limit for stock motor`s, the answer has been, "it can`t be done"...
Yet it still seem`s to me, perfectly reasonable to believe a dyno could be used to tech stock motor`s....
07-08-2007, 10:33 AM
#18
I think it's safe to say that no dyno is perfect - I don't think anybody will argue that point. I think what's important is that the tests are repeatable and consistent and to some degree at least standardized.
For the consumer, what is important is to be able to look at dyno data and compare different motors and brands to be able to make a more-or-less educated purchase decision. I think that has a lot to do with the popularity of some dynos over others. One dyno may be better but if it's not in widespread use it's hard for a consumer to make an apples-to-apples comparison.
For the tuner, the dyno (whichever one a person prefers) is a tool to get the most out of a motor and compare results to sort the good from the bad. You can't do the job without one in my opinion. A track MAY be a better test but I don't know any person, car, track, weather conditions, tires or batteries are THAT consistent.... Besides, you can't get the track to print a sticker that you can slap on the motor.
For the consumer, what is important is to be able to look at dyno data and compare different motors and brands to be able to make a more-or-less educated purchase decision. I think that has a lot to do with the popularity of some dynos over others. One dyno may be better but if it's not in widespread use it's hard for a consumer to make an apples-to-apples comparison.
For the tuner, the dyno (whichever one a person prefers) is a tool to get the most out of a motor and compare results to sort the good from the bad. You can't do the job without one in my opinion. A track MAY be a better test but I don't know any person, car, track, weather conditions, tires or batteries are THAT consistent.... Besides, you can't get the track to print a sticker that you can slap on the motor.
07-08-2007, 10:52 AM
#19
I think it's safe to say that no dyno is perfect - I don't think anybody will argue that point. I think what's important is that the tests are repeatable and consistent and to some degree at least standardized.
For the consumer, what is important is to be able to look at dyno data and compare different motors and brands to be able to make a more-or-less educated purchase decision. I think that has a lot to do with the popularity of some dynos over others. One dyno may be better but if it's not in widespread use it's hard for a consumer to make an apples-to-apples comparison.
For the tuner, the dyno (whichever one a person prefers) is a tool to get the most out of a motor and compare results to sort the good from the bad. You can't do the job without one in my opinion. A track MAY be a better test but I don't know any person, car, track, weather conditions, tires or batteries are THAT consistent.... Besides, you can't get the track to print a sticker that you can slap on the motor.
For the consumer, what is important is to be able to look at dyno data and compare different motors and brands to be able to make a more-or-less educated purchase decision. I think that has a lot to do with the popularity of some dynos over others. One dyno may be better but if it's not in widespread use it's hard for a consumer to make an apples-to-apples comparison.
For the tuner, the dyno (whichever one a person prefers) is a tool to get the most out of a motor and compare results to sort the good from the bad. You can't do the job without one in my opinion. A track MAY be a better test but I don't know any person, car, track, weather conditions, tires or batteries are THAT consistent.... Besides, you can't get the track to print a sticker that you can slap on the motor.
Mostly interested in using a dyno for tech purposes....
It would seem all to easy to just allow a certain power and rpm and torque figure ...
testing would be done with a dyno and enforced....
Sounds easy to do , yet everyone tell`s me impossible , no way, ect ....
Bull ! I say , but I usually don`t have all the facts and that is why I asked Eddie the question. If anyone knew the answer, he would .....
Personally I believe a dyno tech would do wonder`s for improving creditabilty for the stock class...
07-08-2007, 11:44 AM
#20
you will never, ever get a stock motor to compete with the pros because if the numers were even close to good it goes to the team drivers and we get the crap left over. I have seen the dyno specs on my "team tuned" motors and compared them with the pros motors and its like comparing a 12 turn double modified motor to some ready to run 27 turn stock motor with worn brushes. I have also traded motors just to make sure it wasn't the driver or the car and needless to say i wish i could get some of those team motors.
07-08-2007, 12:32 PM
#21
Wild Cherry, I do believe that it can be feasible to tech with a dyno - at least to a degree. I run a lot of motors through my shop and have a pretty good idea of what a certain motor should do on a dyno. When I do a rebuild for somebody if I don't visually notice a "cheater" motor it will almost certainly catch my eye when it hits the dyno.
A good example of this hapenned recently. A guy I race with bought a new touring car and got a 27T stock (Monster Based) motor from a known motor tuner. First race out I would have swore he was running a 19T motor - it was just unbelievably fast. A quick look at his motor showed it to be a stock, 27T motor so I thought he must have a really good motor with a really good smooth car. A few weeks later I rebuilt the motor for him and when I put it on the dyno I was amazed at how high the RPM was and it made very good power too. I opend the motor back up and sure enough the timing was tweeked as far as it could go. So... the moral is that the dyno did catch the cheater motor but only because I noticed it was out of line with other motors.
A good example of this hapenned recently. A guy I race with bought a new touring car and got a 27T stock (Monster Based) motor from a known motor tuner. First race out I would have swore he was running a 19T motor - it was just unbelievably fast. A quick look at his motor showed it to be a stock, 27T motor so I thought he must have a really good motor with a really good smooth car. A few weeks later I rebuilt the motor for him and when I put it on the dyno I was amazed at how high the RPM was and it made very good power too. I opend the motor back up and sure enough the timing was tweeked as far as it could go. So... the moral is that the dyno did catch the cheater motor but only because I noticed it was out of line with other motors.
07-08-2007, 07:11 PM
#22
Teching with any current dyno will never work........and pretty much would never work with a brushed motor. There would be a ton of ways to cheat it.....maybe with a new dyno and brushless........but then, is it really fair to the guy who just bought a motor that happened to be 1% better........its going to happen, just like it does with brushed.
And quickrc, if you build a lot of motors.......you would know, that more than likely that timing wasn't tweaked at all......I have seen c027s straight from the case with 10 degrees of advance in the comm untouched......at the vegas race they were ranging from negative 4 to a positive 8........
Spanky....what team motors are these? Do you really believe this crap? My pro guys don't even run stock.....my sponsored stock guys only race stock at national events........at home they are racing 19t or mod.....if they do have to race stock, they get sent an unbuilt untouched motor straight from the case.....
The motor Mike Dumas won 19t with at the Novak race 2 years ago.....was a flat of c2s I grabbed last minute cause I forgot it was no handout.....I built them that morning, at the track in front everyone......
Long and the short of it, yer getting your ass kicked by better drivers, not these top secret super spec motors......
Cherry is the only one with a valid arguement about sponsored stock drivers.......its simply a money advantage....there is no magic motors.
Later EddieO
And quickrc, if you build a lot of motors.......you would know, that more than likely that timing wasn't tweaked at all......I have seen c027s straight from the case with 10 degrees of advance in the comm untouched......at the vegas race they were ranging from negative 4 to a positive 8........
Spanky....what team motors are these? Do you really believe this crap? My pro guys don't even run stock.....my sponsored stock guys only race stock at national events........at home they are racing 19t or mod.....if they do have to race stock, they get sent an unbuilt untouched motor straight from the case.....
The motor Mike Dumas won 19t with at the Novak race 2 years ago.....was a flat of c2s I grabbed last minute cause I forgot it was no handout.....I built them that morning, at the track in front everyone......
Long and the short of it, yer getting your ass kicked by better drivers, not these top secret super spec motors......
Cherry is the only one with a valid arguement about sponsored stock drivers.......its simply a money advantage....there is no magic motors.
Later EddieO
07-08-2007, 07:12 PM
#23
Ouick , great post ...
For year`s I`v been raging on the problem`s with teching stock motor`s...
Today I`v just change my attitude ...
Stock is perhaps the most important class we have in r/c ..
I consider it the "bread & butter" class for the hosting facility`s because it pay`s the bill`s & overhead...
Developing a easier and improved method to tech motor`s would help the stock program unmeasurable.
And a dyno seems to be a tool really worth investigating and learning more about...
Thus my interest question`s to Eddie-O about dyno`s...
Hope you guys don`t mind this topic about teching stock motors....
For year`s I`v been raging on the problem`s with teching stock motor`s...
Today I`v just change my attitude ...
Stock is perhaps the most important class we have in r/c ..
I consider it the "bread & butter" class for the hosting facility`s because it pay`s the bill`s & overhead...
Developing a easier and improved method to tech motor`s would help the stock program unmeasurable.
And a dyno seems to be a tool really worth investigating and learning more about...
Thus my interest question`s to Eddie-O about dyno`s...
Hope you guys don`t mind this topic about teching stock motors....
07-09-2007, 03:29 PM
#24
Motor Numbers
What numbers must one take not of when buying or tuning a stock motor? When looking at dyno results does e.g. efficiency play an important role? What readings constitute a good motor? Help a confused racer!
07-09-2007, 04:21 PM
#25
Tech Adept
iTrader: (14)
Dyno instead of tech ...
While this sounds like a good idea ... it wouldn't work out very well. While your motor did 58 Watts and you have heard of 70 Watt motors ... I remember running 78 and 83 Watt motors that were handed to me. Bob O'May (Precision Motor Works) was one of the first "tuners" to use the Fact Machine/Fantom dyno back in 94-96' and he would find motors with insane max power numbers. Unfortunately for me ... they looked terrible on the track. Most of them would burn up before the run was over. They also would look terrible on the TurboDyno. It is another reason why I never trusted the Fantom/Facts Machine. The turbodyno would have other issues if used as a tech device - the slave motor would need maintenance and there would be issues with what exactly was "illegal" is 142 Watts at 35 Amps and 7 volts... what would happen if Trinity came out with a new motor that could do 143 Watts. Would you tech it at the beginning of the run, at the end?
Also ... don't believe it is the motor. The guys that are quick are better drivers and have better setups.
Also ... don't believe it is the motor. The guys that are quick are better drivers and have better setups.
07-09-2007, 05:34 PM
#26
dup
Last edited by Wild Cherry; 07-09-2007 at 05:44 PM. Reason: dup
07-09-2007, 05:37 PM
#27
A easier , efficient way to tech would be most helpful in improving stock for racing .....
I still say a power limit with a tolerance of 10% would seem easier to do than having to take the motor apart and having a train expert examine it...
Won`t even have to create stock motor specafication`s , that only fall behind every new year.....
Another benefit would be that brushless or brush design`s would be equal and allowed for stock .
A good thing for brush motor dealer`s cus no other way they are going to be able to compete against the new design`s available .
So my tech idea is not about catching cheaters , its more about improving the stock class and allowing every manufacture a equal chance to compete for the stock racer`s dollar`s...
Got to admit though, improving the creditability & sportsmanship of the stock class would only help attract more racer`s to our sport ....
07-09-2007, 05:38 PM
#28
we gave it to him and he used it in his car. later at the race he asked me to drive his car to see if the setup was good... and to my surprise the car a tons of horsepower. i asked him what motor he had in there and he said it was the one that we gave him. it was hands down the fastest stock motor i have driven to date, and had hands down the worst numbers i have seen from any motor on the dyno to date.
eddie and garrett will back me up on the story.
07-09-2007, 06:09 PM
#30
Tech Regular
iTrader: (11)
The quickest way to tell is some is cheating is by checking the rollout in comparison to the other cars on the track with the same base motor can. If there is a huge difference ie. 3-7 teeth lower, then look a little closer. If it sounds like a mod and is geared like one, it probably is.
What up Eddie and Peter?
What up Eddie and Peter?