5LikesTeam Titan ARC R10 190mm EP Touring Car
02-20-2014, 03:22 PM
#946
I do appreciate your comment, but it seems to be difficult to explain how ackermann can be adjusted on this car (absolutely no personal attack or something negative). Ackermann is a quite important setting, so I play with it a lot. Especially on my home track, I don't need that much ackermann. Less is more seems to be true.
I find it odd nobody seems to be using ackermann as a setup option (or knows how to adjust it). With all do respect, but just saying "just use 2mm" (because everybody does it) isn't the way to figure out how ackermann can be adjusted on THIS car. Every other car I had I had no problems with it, but here it seems to be a puzzle at this moment.
And I never copy a setup. Every track is different, temperature, tire choice, type of asphalt, motor, gearing, weight distribution etc etc. These are all variable circumstances that make me want to find my own setup. Always works best for me.
Absolutely no flaming here, I do appreciate everyone's input. Just an interesting case in my opinion.
I find it odd nobody seems to be using ackermann as a setup option (or knows how to adjust it). With all do respect, but just saying "just use 2mm" (because everybody does it) isn't the way to figure out how ackermann can be adjusted on THIS car. Every other car I had I had no problems with it, but here it seems to be a puzzle at this moment.
And I never copy a setup. Every track is different, temperature, tire choice, type of asphalt, motor, gearing, weight distribution etc etc. These are all variable circumstances that make me want to find my own setup. Always works best for me.
Absolutely no flaming here, I do appreciate everyone's input. Just an interesting case in my opinion.
HTH
02-20-2014, 06:51 PM
#947
Tech Master
iTrader: (15)
Ackerman is an important adjustment but it's a fine adjustment. I usually don't mess with Ackerman unless I'm totally dialed and looking for some refinement. But when adapting to different tracks, springs, oils, roll center, wheelbase are my main adjustments to get dialed in.
At this point, it's set it and forget it. Even if the Ackerman isn't in the most optimized positions for each track, I bet this cars will still make great/competitive lap times in capable hands.
At this point, it's set it and forget it. Even if the Ackerman isn't in the most optimized positions for each track, I bet this cars will still make great/competitive lap times in capable hands.
I usually don't have my car at that level of dialed-ness.
02-20-2014, 10:13 PM
#949
You have a pm. Hope that helps even though I haven't ran on carpet it should work too. Good luck, I know that my ARC vta has been unbeatable at a couple of tracks. Just make sure you have clean bearings and everything is smooth with no binding. That's the key to VTA.
02-21-2014, 12:17 AM
#950
02-21-2014, 08:08 AM
#951
For anyone not following the teams efforts at TITC, at the end of day 1 of qual, arc is tq in non boosted stock and 3 cars in the top 10 in boosted stock. Great work guys and good luck for the rest of the event.
The good news for the rest of us, there was some trialling of some new parts, although the standard release parts produced the best lap times.
The good news for the rest of us, there was some trialling of some new parts, although the standard release parts produced the best lap times.
02-21-2014, 05:52 PM
#952
Tech Regular
i have always been of the belief the if you add spacers to the attatchment points of the bellcrank it reduces the ackerman & increases ackerman if you remove spacers , all the while remembering that this adjustment affects the slip angle of the front wheels
i only make changes to the ackerman in increments of .5 at at time as i find it does change the car a lot
there is a book "xxx main" or an app "rc set up workbench" which cover this in fairly good detail
i only make changes to the ackerman in increments of .5 at at time as i find it does change the car a lot
there is a book "xxx main" or an app "rc set up workbench" which cover this in fairly good detail
I'm curious what your measurement technique is for determining whether it increases or decreases ackerman. And whether your definition of "increase" is more angle on the inside wheel vs. the outside, or more angle on the outside vs. the inside.
When thinking about ackerman, I usually just crank the steering to one side, and then look at it from the top and think "ok, if I added/removed a shim, that would push the tie rod this way, and that would do XXXX to the inside wheel and YYYY to the outside wheel".
-Mike
When thinking about ackerman, I usually just crank the steering to one side, and then look at it from the top and think "ok, if I added/removed a shim, that would push the tie rod this way, and that would do XXXX to the inside wheel and YYYY to the outside wheel".
-Mike
You can see it easily and you can measure it with a setup station and or a setup board with measuring points.
Here is some information I found from the ARC folks about Ackerman and measurement:
"you can use the setup station , TiTAN 30101-2009, then you can read the steering throw of each different ball crank , so you will have idea how it change and what different in your handling"
"Basically if you use shorter ball crank and less shim , you will have more ackerman angle, when you use longer bell crank and more shim(forward) , you will have less ackerman angle."
And to note that the bellcranks come in 18mm, 20mm and 22mm lengths.
"you can use the setup station , TiTAN 30101-2009, then you can read the steering throw of each different ball crank , so you will have idea how it change and what different in your handling"
"Basically if you use shorter ball crank and less shim , you will have more ackerman angle, when you use longer bell crank and more shim(forward) , you will have less ackerman angle."
And to note that the bellcranks come in 18mm, 20mm and 22mm lengths.
If you read some of the setups on Petit, you will see that plenty have used Ackermann options in their setup. Professor has it right if you want to understand it, also ARC do various option parts that you can use to adjust Ackermann. I just happen to like the feel of the kit parts but with 2mm spacer.
HTH
HTH
Ackerman is an important adjustment but it's a fine adjustment. I usually don't mess with Ackerman unless I'm totally dialed and looking for some refinement. But when adapting to different tracks, springs, oils, roll center, wheelbase are my main adjustments to get dialed in.
At this point, it's set it and forget it. Even if the Ackerman isn't in the most optimized positions for each track, I bet this cars will still make great/competitive lap times in capable hands.
At this point, it's set it and forget it. Even if the Ackerman isn't in the most optimized positions for each track, I bet this cars will still make great/competitive lap times in capable hands.
Thanks for all your input guys, I might try different bell cranks, not sure yet.
Just to let you guys know, there is no problem with the car, love the car
, but I would like to fine tune and understand the ackermann situation on the ARC.
02-22-2014, 10:38 AM
#955
Tech Regular
What is your experience with the 8.5mm plate? More or less ackermann? Or does something else changes?
02-22-2014, 11:54 AM
#956
Tech Master
iTrader: (15)
I don't have a whole lot of Ackerman knowledge but when the 8.5 plate came out, I researched other chassis makes like the yokomo, tamiya and also X-ray and noticed that their steering plate positioned the ball studs quite close, I naturally figured it was the most optimized position and went that route.
The 22mm bell cranks were advertised to promote on power steering which I needed at the time but didn't like the idea of no shims could be used because of clearance with the fr suspension block. So I decided to meet in the middle and go with the 20mm to still allow some Ackerman adjustment flexibility.
The 22mm bell cranks were advertised to promote on power steering which I needed at the time but didn't like the idea of no shims could be used because of clearance with the fr suspension block. So I decided to meet in the middle and go with the 20mm to still allow some Ackerman adjustment flexibility.
02-22-2014, 09:11 PM
#957
I don't have a whole lot of Ackerman knowledge but when the 8.5 plate came out, I researched other chassis makes like the yokomo, tamiya and also X-ray and noticed that their steering plate positioned the ball studs quite close, I naturally figured it was the most optimized position and went that route.
The 22mm bell cranks were advertised to promote on power steering which I needed at the time but didn't like the idea of no shims could be used because of clearance with the fr suspension block. So I decided to meet in the middle and go with the 20mm to still allow some Ackerman adjustment flexibility.
The 22mm bell cranks were advertised to promote on power steering which I needed at the time but didn't like the idea of no shims could be used because of clearance with the fr suspension block. So I decided to meet in the middle and go with the 20mm to still allow some Ackerman adjustment flexibility.
