Lowering the weight of Touring Cars that use lipo
07-22-2008, 04:26 AM
#31
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
I would agree with what seaball said.
If I race competitively running lipo allows me to run a heavier servo that I like, SSteel screws, extra fans, heatsinks etc. . . Before lipo my car with all that extra weight would be many grams over. With lipo, I can be under with weight to move around at my pleasure. The cars I run might be beefier which fits my backyard budget, with hardly any breakage. I can also dabble in bigger events without feeling the need to buy exotic cars and parts.
Locally the rules are open with lesser restrictions (like no weight) to allow it easier for anybody to compete or be competitive. You add too many restrictions or rules, then you lose people because for some it is about trying to race for 5 min without breaking. Although Roar and US Vintage to us are only guidlines that help us locally figure out what is best for our budgets and class structure.
If I race competitively running lipo allows me to run a heavier servo that I like, SSteel screws, extra fans, heatsinks etc. . . Before lipo my car with all that extra weight would be many grams over. With lipo, I can be under with weight to move around at my pleasure. The cars I run might be beefier which fits my backyard budget, with hardly any breakage. I can also dabble in bigger events without feeling the need to buy exotic cars and parts.
Locally the rules are open with lesser restrictions (like no weight) to allow it easier for anybody to compete or be competitive. You add too many restrictions or rules, then you lose people because for some it is about trying to race for 5 min without breaking. Although Roar and US Vintage to us are only guidlines that help us locally figure out what is best for our budgets and class structure.
07-22-2008, 04:41 AM
#32
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Slightly off the discussion a bit...but on a similar note nonetheless...
I run m-chassis with LiPo and i always feel that adding the weight would be disadvantage in comparison to those running NiMh. For a 5 minute heat, NiMh could be charged as high as 8 amp to give that extra boost in the voltage, u cant replicate that using LiPo.
I am in the process of getting trial runs using both LiPo n NiMh with the same car setup etc from the top drivers. Hopefully it will shed some light at least in our case...as we are tinkering with the idea of allowing LiPo users to run lighter cars.... who knows....
I run m-chassis with LiPo and i always feel that adding the weight would be disadvantage in comparison to those running NiMh. For a 5 minute heat, NiMh could be charged as high as 8 amp to give that extra boost in the voltage, u cant replicate that using LiPo.
I am in the process of getting trial runs using both LiPo n NiMh with the same car setup etc from the top drivers. Hopefully it will shed some light at least in our case...as we are tinkering with the idea of allowing LiPo users to run lighter cars.... who knows....
07-22-2008, 06:25 AM
#34
How many cars do you go through?
07-22-2008, 06:57 AM
#35
The whole point of this thread is that once again technology has moved on.
Why do some guys think running lipos is more expensive?
You add cost of 3-5 packs of nimhs with cost of charger plus discharger.
then add cost of charger plus 2-3 packs of lipo.
It is cheaper!!!!!!
Why do some guys think running lipos is more expensive?
You add cost of 3-5 packs of nimhs with cost of charger plus discharger.
then add cost of charger plus 2-3 packs of lipo.
It is cheaper!!!!!!
I run LiPo in sedan but it's not "cheaper" to switch over unless you already have a charger that will charge both like an ICE for instance.
So, 2 Orion 4800's, a midlde of the road charger and a balancer will set you back about $420.
And 3 packs of good SMC or Trinity cells, a charger (ICE), and simple discharge tray (Tekin) will set you back about $415.
Cheaper to get into? Not so much and the new NiMh cells actually last pretty well.
The thread is about weight. Not cost. Reducing the weight isn't going to do anything to get more people to race again. Personally, I don't think that the weight of the cars is the problem with sedan but this isn't the place to complain about all of the issues that are bringing sedan down.
07-22-2008, 07:58 AM
#36
I'm going to have to disagree with Seaball on the lighter cars make for more fragile cars.
My Reedy 5000 LiPO's weighs an easy 200g less than my 4600's.
I can replace my servo with another servo that weighs 20g less because the car needs less steering torque with less weight.
The new tires sets weigh 10g less each because of the larger rims, 40g savings there.
Without hacking and cuting on the chassis, a sedan can easily weigh upto 300g less than todays cars by changing the motor and battery package.
So what incentive would a car maker have to make the car more fragile? Racers will still have to add weight if the limits were reduced by 100 or even 200 grams. Manufactures would loose customers if they made a product snap like a twig. If the manufacture chooses to use exotic parts, they could just outprice themselves from future sales.
Speed Can Win a race, Durability will finish the race.
My Reedy 5000 LiPO's weighs an easy 200g less than my 4600's.
I can replace my servo with another servo that weighs 20g less because the car needs less steering torque with less weight.
The new tires sets weigh 10g less each because of the larger rims, 40g savings there.
Without hacking and cuting on the chassis, a sedan can easily weigh upto 300g less than todays cars by changing the motor and battery package.
So what incentive would a car maker have to make the car more fragile? Racers will still have to add weight if the limits were reduced by 100 or even 200 grams. Manufactures would loose customers if they made a product snap like a twig. If the manufacture chooses to use exotic parts, they could just outprice themselves from future sales.
Speed Can Win a race, Durability will finish the race.
07-22-2008, 08:15 AM
#37
Is this really the big problem in Onroad? The only way you could lower weight of lipo cars is seperating the classes so now we'll have 45 classes instead of 25. A class for ever person. Awesome.
Well someone mentioned my name. I dont know why.
2nd, Schreff uses aluminum screws in every screw hole in his car including bulkheads, no problem there. I use titainium in my cars again no problems.
On every other aspect I agree with Seaball's
Well someone mentioned my name. I dont know why.
2nd, Schreff uses aluminum screws in every screw hole in his car including bulkheads, no problem there. I use titainium in my cars again no problems.
On every other aspect I agree with Seaball's
07-22-2008, 08:22 AM
#38
Tech Initiate
We need less classes not more.
Just imagine you just built your lovely new touring car and then mr rules and regs tells you you got to add i big chunk of weight to it. The reason being we want people to have strong reliable cars.
Just seems Stupid to me.
Just imagine you just built your lovely new touring car and then mr rules and regs tells you you got to add i big chunk of weight to it. The reason being we want people to have strong reliable cars.
Just seems Stupid to me.
07-22-2008, 08:48 AM
#39
Then I guess you have to run nimh. If there is no weight limit why have a motor limit, why have rules at all and different classes. Why not make every races Run what ya brung.
Oh and by the way I dont see Lipo being any cheaper at the highest level of racing, possibly more than nimh.
New cells coming out every week, 100 bucks a piece, and heating them and 2 c charging. At a small Trophy race this weekend I saw 2 lipos swell and no nimh's do anything stupid. Oh and nimh won the toughest class by a pretty big margin too. Lipo will not save onroad.
Oh and by the way I dont see Lipo being any cheaper at the highest level of racing, possibly more than nimh.
New cells coming out every week, 100 bucks a piece, and heating them and 2 c charging. At a small Trophy race this weekend I saw 2 lipos swell and no nimh's do anything stupid. Oh and nimh won the toughest class by a pretty big margin too. Lipo will not save onroad.
Last edited by L.Fairtrace; 07-22-2008 at 08:58 AM.
07-22-2008, 08:52 AM
#40
If you want to see one reason that some manufacturers want to make very light fragile parts go look at the prices for caster blocks and/or steering knuckles for the popular cars. Very few have reasonable prices (Associated being one example of good and inexpensive).
It's not the weight of the cars that's breaking them it's the speeds that we're running combined with the traction that we have now (foam or robber). Remove 200 grams (7 ounces!) out of a car and it's going to end up going even faster and you'll break just as many parts.
Not all of the weight you add needs to be dead weight. LRP makes a huge freaking heatsink and fan for BL motors that works great. I say use the weight you need to add to help make the electronics last longer and balance the car.
It's not the weight of the cars that's breaking them it's the speeds that we're running combined with the traction that we have now (foam or robber). Remove 200 grams (7 ounces!) out of a car and it's going to end up going even faster and you'll break just as many parts.
Not all of the weight you add needs to be dead weight. LRP makes a huge freaking heatsink and fan for BL motors that works great. I say use the weight you need to add to help make the electronics last longer and balance the car.
07-22-2008, 09:12 AM
#41
Then I guess you have to run nimh. If there is no weight limit why have a motor limit, why have rules at all and different classes. Why not make every races Run what ya brung.
Oh and by the way I dont see Lipo being any cheaper at the highest level of racing, possibly more than nimh.
New cells coming out every week, 100 bucks a piece, and heating them and 2 c charging. At a small Trophy race this weekend I saw 2 lipos swell and no nimh's do anything stupid. Oh and nimh won the toughest class by a pretty big margin too. Lipo will not save onroad.
Oh and by the way I dont see Lipo being any cheaper at the highest level of racing, possibly more than nimh.
New cells coming out every week, 100 bucks a piece, and heating them and 2 c charging. At a small Trophy race this weekend I saw 2 lipos swell and no nimh's do anything stupid. Oh and nimh won the toughest class by a pretty big margin too. Lipo will not save onroad.
07-22-2008, 09:24 AM
#42
It is too early to call for a drop in weight limits.
Lets wait until a) LiPo are legal at national/international races and b) there is a clear performance advantage that means most people stop using NiMH cells and the next generation of cars can be designed exclusively around LiPo.
When that time comes, yes, lets go down to 1400gms or even less. But that time will not be 2009, maybe not even 2010 or later.
To go to a low weight for LiPos too early will unnecessarily penalise the people still using NiMH, or create an unwanted rebel racing class.
Lets wait until a) LiPo are legal at national/international races and b) there is a clear performance advantage that means most people stop using NiMH cells and the next generation of cars can be designed exclusively around LiPo.
When that time comes, yes, lets go down to 1400gms or even less. But that time will not be 2009, maybe not even 2010 or later.
To go to a low weight for LiPos too early will unnecessarily penalise the people still using NiMH, or create an unwanted rebel racing class.
07-22-2008, 09:34 AM
#43
By allowing LiPO's and NiMH to run together is the best option for majority of racing. It eliminated the needs for another class.
Over time the race class will need to exclude the older technology and move on. If the weights are not admended over time then when newer technology is adopted problems could arise in the speeds of the race classes.
This similar event happened to pan cars. As the technology got better the cars got faster. Then came the 4-cell reset. This allowed for better technology at controlable speeds. 6-cell racing vanished, new chassis and electronics came out for 4-cell and there was cost in the conversion.
Now look at pan cars today. The technology is alot better and conversion to LiPO is a massive mountain. There has been a scramble for the last year to come up with a viable motor solution to use with LiPO. At half-best is the 21.5 motor. It produces speeds similar or greater to 13.5 4-cell, requires expensive investment in larger pinions and smaller spurs and still leaves no solution for stock racing.
Being near sighted is a sure way seal the fate of Sedan racing.
Over time the race class will need to exclude the older technology and move on. If the weights are not admended over time then when newer technology is adopted problems could arise in the speeds of the race classes.
This similar event happened to pan cars. As the technology got better the cars got faster. Then came the 4-cell reset. This allowed for better technology at controlable speeds. 6-cell racing vanished, new chassis and electronics came out for 4-cell and there was cost in the conversion.
Now look at pan cars today. The technology is alot better and conversion to LiPO is a massive mountain. There has been a scramble for the last year to come up with a viable motor solution to use with LiPO. At half-best is the 21.5 motor. It produces speeds similar or greater to 13.5 4-cell, requires expensive investment in larger pinions and smaller spurs and still leaves no solution for stock racing.
Being near sighted is a sure way seal the fate of Sedan racing.
07-22-2008, 09:51 AM
#44
The same needs to be applied to all batteries. Commonsense, read the manuals, practice safe handling, prevent shorts and reverse polarity ect.
If you can't trust the person next to you with a loaded gun, are you going to risk your life standing there? If you see unsafe acts, call it out and prevent the unsafe act from happening again.
07-22-2008, 10:39 AM
#45
Don't you mod guys run at 1425 grams, as you have one cell less in your cars? This is what im trying to get at, as when the decision to go to 5 cell mod was announced, (I think the reason behind this, was because of the power of 6 cells were blowing up ESC's), so peeps just removed a cell from their 6 cell chassis, so how can this be any good for a chassis that was designed around a 6 cell chassis originally. Now mod have their own 5 cell chassis designed, and now is at 1425 grams, in fact we have a 4 cell class mod that runs in with us 10.5/19t which is allowed to be at 1350 grams so why cant we that now have Lipo's have a chassis designed around us and bring it down to 1400 grams, as the weight of Lipo is near half of the NMH's, oh wait a minute, we don't need to have one designed for us, as the car works perfect with Lipo and with only a FEW weights carefully placed in the car, but not have the hassle of making a Lipo Weight Plate. The car would still run around 100 grams light, this way you could use stainless steel screws and NOT expensive titanium ones to get the weight of the car down by around 30 grams, you could run a heavier servo, Cool-Can-Fans etc. This thread is not to wind people up I can assure you, its just an opinion of quite a few people I have spoken to recently. The thing is, we don't want to hold this sport back from going forward, as FTQ has mentioned, we have moved on from Brushed motors, now onto Lipo's, so why not review the weight limit, im not asking for it to happen over night, as it wont, but its food for thought
Cheers Malc TCCFM
