Why
09-14-2006, 12:02 PM
#91
I don't think anyone said that in a crash they would explode....I could be wrong...maybe someone did. I'm not going to go back through all the paes to find out. There's always the possibility you got lucky. Had that thing been punctured with the dogbone, turnbuckle, etc, you WOULD have had your raging inferno. That said, Orion's hard case pretty much negates this possiblity.
This topic is pretty much a 'whos opinion is better'. Kinda over it. The fact is, we don't KNOW what is going to be better for the mainstream until it IS mainstream. Luckily, I hang out with people that have a clue and I don't have to worry about things exploding next to my head (LiPo or otherwise). However, I'm a racer and so is everyone around me.
This topic is pretty much a 'whos opinion is better'. Kinda over it. The fact is, we don't KNOW what is going to be better for the mainstream until it IS mainstream. Luckily, I hang out with people that have a clue and I don't have to worry about things exploding next to my head (LiPo or otherwise). However, I'm a racer and so is everyone around me.
09-14-2006, 12:25 PM
#92
Originally Posted by TPhalen
You're right. We have to trust the Hobby Shop to educate the people buying the product. MOST (and I use this term loosely) employ younger kids that are, possibly, a good part of the RC industry. They know what is good, what is fast, and could possbily even race. THOSE employees are going to sell what the customer wants...not was is the most logical choice for that particular person.
Case in point. A couple summers ago I worked at a local Hobby People here in Fountain Valley. Customer comes in...fresh, NO RC experience, and says he wants the fastest thing out there in electric. What would you have done? Sell him the 6 turn motor, the 7 cell pack, top of the line X_Brand car, charger and radio....or educate the person on what to possibly start with to learn and upgrade from there?
This person was sold, in the above scenario, the 6 turn motor, 7 cell pack, top of the line this that and the other....some $800 or something like that. They went home, built it, ran it in the street and destroyed it on the first pass. Brought it back and I happened to be there to take the heat. Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company (and, we all know, California is a lawsuit-happy state!).
This, of course, is not something that happens at every store, but the uneducated customer enters a hobby store every day.
And bxpitbull, easy to say that if the customer does something wrong with our product that they are too stupid to and shouldn't use it anyway. It would be great if that's where it would end....but it won't. It's just not that easy.
Again, I'm not against LiPos at all. I'm not 'blasting' them or cloaking my support. I just don't think that the LiPo is the next big cell....I think it's our transition cell to something as powerful but MUCH more user friendly....and safe. Something you don't have to charge in an ammo box. Come on, isn't THAT a little extreme?
Case in point. A couple summers ago I worked at a local Hobby People here in Fountain Valley. Customer comes in...fresh, NO RC experience, and says he wants the fastest thing out there in electric. What would you have done? Sell him the 6 turn motor, the 7 cell pack, top of the line X_Brand car, charger and radio....or educate the person on what to possibly start with to learn and upgrade from there?
This person was sold, in the above scenario, the 6 turn motor, 7 cell pack, top of the line this that and the other....some $800 or something like that. They went home, built it, ran it in the street and destroyed it on the first pass. Brought it back and I happened to be there to take the heat. Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company (and, we all know, California is a lawsuit-happy state!).
This, of course, is not something that happens at every store, but the uneducated customer enters a hobby store every day.
And bxpitbull, easy to say that if the customer does something wrong with our product that they are too stupid to and shouldn't use it anyway. It would be great if that's where it would end....but it won't. It's just not that easy.
Again, I'm not against LiPos at all. I'm not 'blasting' them or cloaking my support. I just don't think that the LiPo is the next big cell....I think it's our transition cell to something as powerful but MUCH more user friendly....and safe. Something you don't have to charge in an ammo box. Come on, isn't THAT a little extreme?
09-14-2006, 12:31 PM
#93
Tech Regular
When ever i see lipo installed by racers it racer that are just starting out or doing it on the cheap, I have seen one guy plug the speedo in backward and the speedo went up in a puff of smoke. I have seen new racer using the standard battery strap for sub c to hold the lipo in every time they take a knock the first thing to fly out is the lipo beacuse the refuse to secure it with a battery tape and no clue about mounting it securly in the the car. if the lithium become exposed and burns it like naplam as in a flameable gel that won't go out unless you use halon (the best but banned ), foam, or co2.
I think all racers will have to be trained like proper race mashalls in terms of putting the fire out and dealing with lipo explosions safely and effectively. As i gurantee that if some one panics it gonna do a lot of damage and put race insurance up. Look at the dell and mac laptop recall end users are for no reason end up with a pontential fireball in there house.
I think all racers will have to be trained like proper race mashalls in terms of putting the fire out and dealing with lipo explosions safely and effectively. As i gurantee that if some one panics it gonna do a lot of damage and put race insurance up. Look at the dell and mac laptop recall end users are for no reason end up with a pontential fireball in there house.
09-14-2006, 12:37 PM
#94
Originally Posted by TPhalen
There's always the possibility you got lucky. Had that thing been punctured with the dogbone, turnbuckle, etc, you WOULD have had your raging inferno. That said, Orion's hard case pretty much negates this possiblity.
Kokam and Team Orion safety info.
09-14-2006, 12:49 PM
#95
Lipo's do not explode they burn. And you have to use lith-x or copper powder to put out a lipo fire. Furthermore, just exposing a lipo battery to air will not catch it on fire. Lithium in metal form reacts with the nitrogen in the air, however in lipo packs there is not any metal lithium. The main danger with a lipo pack is when it is over charged or discharged, which starts a reaction that turns the lithium into a solid metal, and if it gets exposed you have your fire. Powder graphite works to put out lipo fires as well, basically what is in lith-x.
09-14-2006, 01:11 PM
#96
Originally Posted by bxpitbull
Um, Tony, you don't have to search the threads because you said it right here!
Thanks Rick. I'm lumping all LiPos in as a general statement....guess that's not so true. Thanks.
09-14-2006, 01:20 PM
#97
Tech Regular
Don't get me wrong i think lipo is the future but i want people educated well enough to handle them. Due to this heath and safety concious world i live in anything goes really bad some is gonna get there ass sued off. It like peugeot say they will never build a another car like the 205 GTI with the thin rear anti rollbars cuase modern drivers are to dumb to handle such a oversteering FWD car and they would still risk of getting there ass sued even with a disclaimer stating they are not liable for any accident caused but lack of driver control. I recently saw someone rearrange the engine bay of an golf r32 due poor driving and putting into a wall of a shop due to the slippy conditions the early morning due had brought on.
09-14-2006, 01:23 PM
#98
Originally Posted by TPhalen
You're right. We have to trust the Hobby Shop to educate the people buying the product. MOST (and I use this term loosely) employ younger kids that are, possibly, a good part of the RC industry. They know what is good, what is fast, and could possbily even race. THOSE employees are going to sell what the customer wants...not was is the most logical choice for that particular person.
Case in point. A couple summers ago I worked at a local Hobby People here in Fountain Valley. Customer comes in...fresh, NO RC experience, and says he wants the fastest thing out there in electric. What would you have done? Sell him the 6 turn motor, the 7 cell pack, top of the line X_Brand car, charger and radio....or educate the person on what to possibly start with to learn and upgrade from there?
This person was sold, in the above scenario, the 6 turn motor, 7 cell pack, top of the line this that and the other....some $800 or something like that. They went home, built it, ran it in the street and destroyed it on the first pass. Brought it back and I happened to be there to take the heat. Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company (and, we all know, California is a lawsuit-happy state!).
This, of course, is not something that happens at every store, but the uneducated customer enters a hobby store every day.
And bxpitbull, easy to say that if the customer does something wrong with our product that they are too stupid to and shouldn't use it anyway. It would be great if that's where it would end....but it won't. It's just not that easy.
Again, I'm not against LiPos at all. I'm not 'blasting' them or cloaking my support. I just don't think that the LiPo is the next big cell....I think it's our transition cell to something as powerful but MUCH more user friendly....and safe. Something you don't have to charge in an ammo box. Come on, isn't THAT a little extreme?
Case in point. A couple summers ago I worked at a local Hobby People here in Fountain Valley. Customer comes in...fresh, NO RC experience, and says he wants the fastest thing out there in electric. What would you have done? Sell him the 6 turn motor, the 7 cell pack, top of the line X_Brand car, charger and radio....or educate the person on what to possibly start with to learn and upgrade from there?
This person was sold, in the above scenario, the 6 turn motor, 7 cell pack, top of the line this that and the other....some $800 or something like that. They went home, built it, ran it in the street and destroyed it on the first pass. Brought it back and I happened to be there to take the heat. Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company (and, we all know, California is a lawsuit-happy state!).
This, of course, is not something that happens at every store, but the uneducated customer enters a hobby store every day.
And bxpitbull, easy to say that if the customer does something wrong with our product that they are too stupid to and shouldn't use it anyway. It would be great if that's where it would end....but it won't. It's just not that easy.
Again, I'm not against LiPos at all. I'm not 'blasting' them or cloaking my support. I just don't think that the LiPo is the next big cell....I think it's our transition cell to something as powerful but MUCH more user friendly....and safe. Something you don't have to charge in an ammo box. Come on, isn't THAT a little extreme?
Now, not for nothing, but this is what YOU typed......don't go copping pleas
09-14-2006, 01:31 PM
#99
As for lipo's I would go with orion since they deal mostly with cars and would know what r/c cars go through.
The notion of holding out on lipo to figure out which is the best is not valid.
Same could be said with NIMH. you have update on batts all the time with
ib releasing 3800's 4200's then 4200 different variations of the 4200's
the difference is lipo just lasts longer with out too much fuss as long as you have the right charger.
The notion of holding out on lipo to figure out which is the best is not valid.
Same could be said with NIMH. you have update on batts all the time with
ib releasing 3800's 4200's then 4200 different variations of the 4200's
the difference is lipo just lasts longer with out too much fuss as long as you have the right charger.
09-14-2006, 02:48 PM
#100
Originally Posted by bxpitbull
[/B]
Now, not for nothing, but this is what YOU typed......don't go copping pleas
Now, not for nothing, but this is what YOU typed......don't go copping pleas
"This person was sold, in the above scenario, the 6 turn motor, 7 cell pack, top of the line this that and the other....some $800 or something like that. They went home, built it, ran it in the street and destroyed it on the first pass. Brought it back and I happened to be there to take the heat. Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company", but in no stretch of the imagination does that translate to
say LiPo's will explode if you crash..........
09-14-2006, 03:09 PM
#101
You know what FATHEAD, the name is applicable in description only. TOO bad it's a fat head with no brain. If you would read that is READ his post it clearly states:
Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company",
Now, while that is an implication, it does suggest the "volatile" and "sensitive" nature of li-po, leading one to believe the packs are higly flammable. Get hooked on phonics and before you read something, understand American english before you go siding with someone. DUNCE! This is why the pitbull gets off the leash and starts the attacks. Doofuses like dunderhead aka fathead jump on the bandwagon and start with the slights. Friggin limey.
Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company",
Now, while that is an implication, it does suggest the "volatile" and "sensitive" nature of li-po, leading one to believe the packs are higly flammable. Get hooked on phonics and before you read something, understand American english before you go siding with someone. DUNCE! This is why the pitbull gets off the leash and starts the attacks. Doofuses like dunderhead aka fathead jump on the bandwagon and start with the slights. Friggin limey.
09-14-2006, 03:13 PM
#102
I though it was bad seeing brushless go though the "tuner`s" dogma trip !
guess Li-po`s are also in store for same bit in the future...
Can`t let something "new" and "improved" bump off the "old" and "obsolete"...
not with out a lot of bad Pr anyway...
guess Li-po`s are also in store for same bit in the future...
Can`t let something "new" and "improved" bump off the "old" and "obsolete"...
not with out a lot of bad Pr anyway...
09-14-2006, 03:28 PM
#103
Originally Posted by bxpitbull
Now, while that is an implication, it does suggest the "volatile" and "sensitive" nature of li-po, leading one to believe the packs are higly flammable. Get hooked on phonics and before you read something, understand American english before you go siding with someone. DUNCE! This is why the pitbull gets off the leash and starts the attacks. Doofuses like dunderhead aka fathead jump on the bandwagon and start with the slights. Friggin limey.
Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company"
09-14-2006, 03:43 PM
#104
I am not here to bash/flame/attack simply to state some facts.
As I have been a major force in the development of the past and future Orion/Peak Li-Po's for the past two years. I have tested several manufacturers Li-po cells and other technologies as well and there are many reasons why we chose to go with Kokam as our supplier. I will not go into detail but just leave it at that.
Our cells are safe to airship we have all the documentation to prove it and yes to be able to this there are federal regulation and safety standards that must be addressed.
We have had less then 1/10 of 1% of our Li-Po batteries fail and this includes those that have failed to to admitted abuse or neglect. We informed the customers to please return these Li-Po cells for analysis and they are lumped together in a box at my desk they are puffy no big scorch marks and they have been sitting for weeks a couple for months, no heat, no boom, no worries. We even had one gentelmen manage to get one to rupture and when asked what happen his responce was " it just popped like a paper bag" was there any flame "no just air" Was the battery hot "no, it just popped, it must puff up in my monster truck which has an aluminum battery tray so it could only grow but so much and it just popped like a paper bag". Note the fact that the cells actually opened up was a one time occurance that we have not been able to reproduce.
We have never recieved a call of our Li-po's destroying sombody's vehicle and frankly considering the large number that we have sold over the last year if we did it would surprise me.
However not all Li-Po's are built the same they may be similar in ideal but a battery engineer can go on at length of the vast differences in architecture. Are some Li-Po volatile? Yes I can personally say I have tested some that were pretty dam scary which were these I will not say as I am not here to bash.
Also I wish to remind some Team Orion is arguably the largest supplier/matcher/tuner/whatever the kids are calling it these days of NiCd and Ni-MH in the world for the R/C Car Hobby industry, we are global not just domestic.
We have read online, personally witnessed and heard by phone the following Ni-MH experiences:
•Racers/Hobbyist catching there carpet on fire.
• Blowing holes in the dashboard of their truck and then continue to burn inside there dash in turn catching there truck on fire.
• Having cells short out on the chassis then blowing up sending people to the hospital to require stiches and other care.
• Seeing a battery short after a crash and literally blow apart some of the chassis.
Etc. etc.....
Were these our Ni-MH? I am happy to say no however they were the same technology that is used on our own Ni-MH and if abused in the same way I would expect the same results. Do Ni-MH batteries scare me? NO, these occurances where caused by abuse, the kind of abuse that leads to those lacking (amongst other things) better things to do with there time to purposely destroy property and then claim this is a common occurance.
Is Li-Po the future? Time will tell, NiCD's have not changed in 5-7 years and they still are purchased and sold quite regularly.
As I have been a major force in the development of the past and future Orion/Peak Li-Po's for the past two years. I have tested several manufacturers Li-po cells and other technologies as well and there are many reasons why we chose to go with Kokam as our supplier. I will not go into detail but just leave it at that.
Our cells are safe to airship we have all the documentation to prove it and yes to be able to this there are federal regulation and safety standards that must be addressed.
We have had less then 1/10 of 1% of our Li-Po batteries fail and this includes those that have failed to to admitted abuse or neglect. We informed the customers to please return these Li-Po cells for analysis and they are lumped together in a box at my desk they are puffy no big scorch marks and they have been sitting for weeks a couple for months, no heat, no boom, no worries. We even had one gentelmen manage to get one to rupture and when asked what happen his responce was " it just popped like a paper bag" was there any flame "no just air" Was the battery hot "no, it just popped, it must puff up in my monster truck which has an aluminum battery tray so it could only grow but so much and it just popped like a paper bag". Note the fact that the cells actually opened up was a one time occurance that we have not been able to reproduce.
We have never recieved a call of our Li-po's destroying sombody's vehicle and frankly considering the large number that we have sold over the last year if we did it would surprise me.
However not all Li-Po's are built the same they may be similar in ideal but a battery engineer can go on at length of the vast differences in architecture. Are some Li-Po volatile? Yes I can personally say I have tested some that were pretty dam scary which were these I will not say as I am not here to bash.
Also I wish to remind some Team Orion is arguably the largest supplier/matcher/tuner/whatever the kids are calling it these days of NiCd and Ni-MH in the world for the R/C Car Hobby industry, we are global not just domestic.
We have read online, personally witnessed and heard by phone the following Ni-MH experiences:
•Racers/Hobbyist catching there carpet on fire.
• Blowing holes in the dashboard of their truck and then continue to burn inside there dash in turn catching there truck on fire.
• Having cells short out on the chassis then blowing up sending people to the hospital to require stiches and other care.
• Seeing a battery short after a crash and literally blow apart some of the chassis.
Etc. etc.....
Were these our Ni-MH? I am happy to say no however they were the same technology that is used on our own Ni-MH and if abused in the same way I would expect the same results. Do Ni-MH batteries scare me? NO, these occurances where caused by abuse, the kind of abuse that leads to those lacking (amongst other things) better things to do with there time to purposely destroy property and then claim this is a common occurance.
Is Li-Po the future? Time will tell, NiCD's have not changed in 5-7 years and they still are purchased and sold quite regularly.
09-14-2006, 03:51 PM
#105
Mr. Black, thank you for the words of reason and experience on the subject, and most importantly getting the thread back on track.
It never seems to fail, when a good thread is started that is bascially a two sided open debate, by the time the thread gets to 100 posts, anything inteligent has probably been said and it degrades into the final knuckleheads calling each other names, maybe a rule should be instituted that at 99 posts these types of threads automatically shut down. LOL
It never seems to fail, when a good thread is started that is bascially a two sided open debate, by the time the thread gets to 100 posts, anything inteligent has probably been said and it degrades into the final knuckleheads calling each other names, maybe a rule should be instituted that at 99 posts these types of threads automatically shut down. LOL