what happems when brushless takes over?
09-08-2006, 07:17 PM
#166
Tech Elite
iTrader: (102)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Far away from Covid19 but close to 20
Posts: 4,129
Trader Rating: 102 (100%+)
dude
hey Team Tekin,
I'll take you up on the drink...i'm sure we'll meet up at some racing event..in '07
and I applaud that you're a Company making a move to be in both markets, it's a good business move and I'm sure will pay out very soon.
How about letting me test the brushless for ya...
Just a friendly debate guys....
and it's nice to see a company standing his ground without creating uber controversy.
You're points are well made and I'm sure will make the readers see both side of the coin.
Brushless for life...OL>
woohooo..race day is tomorrow!!!!
I'll take you up on the drink...i'm sure we'll meet up at some racing event..in '07
and I applaud that you're a Company making a move to be in both markets, it's a good business move and I'm sure will pay out very soon.
How about letting me test the brushless for ya...
Just a friendly debate guys....
and it's nice to see a company standing his ground without creating uber controversy.
You're points are well made and I'm sure will make the readers see both side of the coin.
Brushless for life...OL>
woohooo..race day is tomorrow!!!!
Last edited by olhipster1; 09-08-2006 at 07:36 PM.
09-08-2006, 07:23 PM
#167
Originally Posted by olhipster1
I've had my drinks.
hmm...how to respond to that.
let's see are tracks lacking in attendance or memberships...that would be a yes!!...once more I agree with you.....
but if tracks start saying ...by the way that brushless system you just bought 3 weeks ago....well you can't use it during racing unless you run mod....how many people do you think will race mod...after that first try.
hmmm
and after how many of them will return?
and after that how many of them will dish out more money on brushed motors to make everyone but themselves happy?
Funny thing is when guys say..switching to brushless is to pricey...add it up..speedo how much...brushed motor how much?
then between rounds they pull out the lathe, how much did that cost?
ohh. time to switch the brushes. how much does that cost?
ohh..darn i cut that comm all wrong, or this is no good anymore...how much for the replacement?
I'm curious about some other things....why is the brushless scene being so resisted...why didn't this happen to other electronics...servos..are they different in speed and mechanics? YES....transmitters....are they different in speed signals and electronics...YES....or something as simple as bearings...are ceramics better than reg...YES...no one seems to say No you can't use that....
Why? because it sells...and all tracks need to make money..it's what they are there for....and I try my best to support that.
Yes I am all for brushless. And in no way say don't run your brushed motors, by all means do...it's a racers choice. Not a manufacturer's....manufacturers are there to fill the demand....not to demand.
After all who is spending their money at the track?
hmm...how to respond to that.
let's see are tracks lacking in attendance or memberships...that would be a yes!!...once more I agree with you.....
but if tracks start saying ...by the way that brushless system you just bought 3 weeks ago....well you can't use it during racing unless you run mod....how many people do you think will race mod...after that first try.
hmmm
and after how many of them will return?
and after that how many of them will dish out more money on brushed motors to make everyone but themselves happy?
Funny thing is when guys say..switching to brushless is to pricey...add it up..speedo how much...brushed motor how much?
then between rounds they pull out the lathe, how much did that cost?
ohh. time to switch the brushes. how much does that cost?
ohh..darn i cut that comm all wrong, or this is no good anymore...how much for the replacement?
I'm curious about some other things....why is the brushless scene being so resisted...why didn't this happen to other electronics...servos..are they different in speed and mechanics? YES....transmitters....are they different in speed signals and electronics...YES....or something as simple as bearings...are ceramics better than reg...YES...no one seems to say No you can't use that....
Why? because it sells...and all tracks need to make money..it's what they are there for....and I try my best to support that.
Yes I am all for brushless. And in no way say don't run your brushed motors, by all means do...it's a racers choice. Not a manufacturer's....manufacturers are there to fill the demand....not to demand.
After all who is spending their money at the track?
+1
09-08-2006, 07:51 PM
#168
Tech Regular
We need to model our selves after a successful racing program like NASCAR. They still run the same basic engine configuration and carburetor as they did 20 years ago. There are new advances in electronics in the real racing world like (fuel injection) but they keep in simple and very basic. Even F-1 the cutting edge of racing technology is restricting advancements. Advancing technology will not guarantee more racers. Changes in our RC world need to be controlled by the racing bodies like ROAR or IFMAR. We can’t allow manufactures to throw new electronics at their will and try to force a class change or mix new technology. Just because Joe racer goes out and buys a brush less system does not give him the right to use it at an organized race. Don’t get me wrong I like the idea of brush less motors but it is not fair to any racer to mix a brushed and blushless racer in the same race other than mod. I don’t think at this time we can add more classes. I’m tired of racing with only a few people in each class there is too much division now. I’m not sure what the correct answer will be but some real rules and guide lines need to be in place before organized RC racing turns in to a big cluster. I fear this is we are headed. No rules racing.
09-09-2006, 12:19 AM
#170
Keeping it simple? To the end user, using and maintaining a brushless motor is VASTLY more simple than brushed. The only reason brushed motors seem simple to you is because you're more familiar with them. People aren't promoting brushless because it's new, they're doing it because it's better. Really, in basically ever measurable way, it's a better choice. That's why people love it.
And you CAN mix them, and it works just fine. The 13.5 is a perfectly reasonable option in stock class. People can cry about it all they want, and talk about how it's fundamentally wrong or whatever. What they should do is STFU and let people run it if that's what keeps them coming to the track.
Our club announced two weeks ago that the 13.5 would be allowed in stock racing. Not sure if anybody will do it for a while, though, all the guys that want to run BL are using 4300's.
And you CAN mix them, and it works just fine. The 13.5 is a perfectly reasonable option in stock class. People can cry about it all they want, and talk about how it's fundamentally wrong or whatever. What they should do is STFU and let people run it if that's what keeps them coming to the track.
Our club announced two weeks ago that the 13.5 would be allowed in stock racing. Not sure if anybody will do it for a while, though, all the guys that want to run BL are using 4300's.
09-09-2006, 12:25 AM
#171
This has been a very great thread so far. With the exception of a few "I'm so scared" people on the brushed side, and few "blah blah, I can't get a motor sponsor" people on the brushless side, this has been the most civil, reasonable discussion on the topic to date. Thank you so much to all the people that have weighed in on this, including big names from various manufactures and other companies. Your voices are the most important on this topic, and it's good to hear your opinion on it. No amount of advertising could make me want to buy products from br00d, Tekin, EA and Novak more than just hearing your company representatives speak so logically and openly about an issue so important to R/C.
09-09-2006, 12:34 AM
#173
Run a brushed motor :P Sorry.....couldn't resist 
Later EddieO
Later EddieO
09-09-2006, 06:05 AM
#175
You can't compare TC racing to NASCAR, IRL or F1... It is more comparable to SCCA or even Rolex... Except for the Prototypes, the cars being raced are the same one's you'll find on the street (with the nescessary mods.) With the newer generation of cars comes newer technology. Is anyone telling The Caddy guys, Porsche's, BMW's that they have to run Carb's and Points? Absolutely not... NASCAR is Spec racing, same engines, chassis's, bodies with facia's that kind of look like the street car they are modeled after...
Within the next 2 years I bet all RTR's will come with brushless! You can't stop it... Then just like SCCA we'll be racing on the track the same stuff that's being bashed on the street!
Within the next 2 years I bet all RTR's will come with brushless! You can't stop it... Then just like SCCA we'll be racing on the track the same stuff that's being bashed on the street!
09-09-2006, 08:55 AM
#176
Originally Posted by bvoltz
Why can't brushless and brush run in the same class?? Look at the Novak 13.5 and 27T (stock) racing, they are able to run in the same class... So it possible.
What am I missing?
What am I missing?
Novak has developed a good product with the 13.5 brushless for stock racing and if it is truly not an unfair advantage over a brushed motor should probably be allowed in stock class since that is suppose to be the "fair and easy class". That is a club level choice and not allowed currently under ROAR. It will take some industry cooperation to truly make things equal in any class other than mod.
My comments were about what we do with new people that buy the 3.5 or the 4.5 and show up to race? Their thinking seems to be I might as well buy the fastest one because it is fun and I can always drive it slow.... but the throttle is a switch to them and just reducing your throttle epa is really not a great idea on these high kv low wind motors... So if they show up with a 4.5 brushless as a novice they belong in the mod not the novice stock.
Other important point is how to classify other manufacturers brushless motors. All 13 turn brushless will not be the same since there are more factors than turns determining performance. We each will have to build a stock equivelant with how ever many turns it takes to be equal. If there is only one approved stock brushless it is not healthy for the industry. A single manufacturer class is not right either.. unless it is a Tekin brushless class
So Eddie and EA.. how do brushed motors survive other than just not allowing brushless?
Tekin Prez
09-09-2006, 09:46 AM
#177
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
You're playing with a TOY car!!! This isn't a sport... It's not going to get you Laid (mostly the opposite)... It will never be on ESPN or Speed channel.... You're playing with a toy in a hobby shop that could be closed tomorrow.... You haven't accomplished anything but won a race with a TOY car!!!!
Do I admire guys like Kinwald, Cyrul, etc... Sure but not because they are great RC car drivers... They are playing the system, it's almost like being a trust fund rich kid!!! Someone is paying you to play with toy cars!!! But it all comes to an end someday... There's no union, no retirement plan, no benefits... Some day you'll have to get a real job and you're only skill is PLAYING WITH TOY CARS!!!!
Some of you have severely taken the fun out of the HOBBY for the rest of us!!!
Do I admire guys like Kinwald, Cyrul, etc... Sure but not because they are great RC car drivers... They are playing the system, it's almost like being a trust fund rich kid!!! Someone is paying you to play with toy cars!!! But it all comes to an end someday... There's no union, no retirement plan, no benefits... Some day you'll have to get a real job and you're only skill is PLAYING WITH TOY CARS!!!!
Some of you have severely taken the fun out of the HOBBY for the rest of us!!!
09-09-2006, 01:56 PM
#178
whoa!!!!
this guy just referenced classic bmx names...he wins post of the year award!Now if somebody mixes in a Stompin' Stu vs. Greg Hill debate I'll be logged on forever.
Agreed...great conversation with much civilty
Now, back to the 200 late models out my window.
dk
this guy just referenced classic bmx names...he wins post of the year award!Now if somebody mixes in a Stompin' Stu vs. Greg Hill debate I'll be logged on forever.
Agreed...great conversation with much civilty
Now, back to the 200 late models out my window.
dk
09-09-2006, 03:36 PM
#180
Pistol Pete > Greg Hill....
Don't forget Martin Apruilijo (spelling??).....
I still have my Haro from when I sponsored by them.....and I bought vintage 87 Master, Sport, and a FST frame to build up....
Don't forget the cult movie RAD......I have all the songs, as I took a super rare copy of the unreleased soundtrack that I got and had it professionally converted to CD....sounds pimp.....also got the movie on the super rare Laser Disc.....got lucky and found a brand new copy at some laserdisc store for $25!
Later EddieO
Don't forget Martin Apruilijo (spelling??).....
I still have my Haro from when I sponsored by them.....and I bought vintage 87 Master, Sport, and a FST frame to build up....
Don't forget the cult movie RAD......I have all the songs, as I took a super rare copy of the unreleased soundtrack that I got and had it professionally converted to CD....sounds pimp.....also got the movie on the super rare Laser Disc.....got lucky and found a brand new copy at some laserdisc store for $25!
Later EddieO