Three Day State Titles
10-03-2010 | 04:48 AM
#31
so in a 60 min amain who will be the faster
the driver doing 7 min stops or 10 min stops
if certain drivers are getting 10+ mins then they will have more chance of a better qualifying time but getting your package to do 10+ is also an art or a very expensive meeting and we will never be able to stop the bottomless wallet. just because we cannot do 10 and others can does not meen we change the rules to suit.
There is more down time at any given race meeting waiting for marshalls to take up their positions. If we start changing the actual racing rules too much we will end up in such a mindless spin it will hurt our hobbies ability to keep growing and as we all know over the past 3 years it has progressed very nicely.
We have the following progresions in place
local club days to race what you bring
local trophy named events to introduce the clubbies to a more structured race format
State and National titles under sanctioned rules.
why mess with a recipe that has helped grow our hobby.
We have bigger problems with the need to have qualified and independant race directors, time keepers and race officials.
the driver doing 7 min stops or 10 min stops
if certain drivers are getting 10+ mins then they will have more chance of a better qualifying time but getting your package to do 10+ is also an art or a very expensive meeting and we will never be able to stop the bottomless wallet. just because we cannot do 10 and others can does not meen we change the rules to suit.
There is more down time at any given race meeting waiting for marshalls to take up their positions. If we start changing the actual racing rules too much we will end up in such a mindless spin it will hurt our hobbies ability to keep growing and as we all know over the past 3 years it has progressed very nicely.
We have the following progresions in place
local club days to race what you bring
local trophy named events to introduce the clubbies to a more structured race format
State and National titles under sanctioned rules.
why mess with a recipe that has helped grow our hobby.
We have bigger problems with the need to have qualified and independant race directors, time keepers and race officials.
10-03-2010 | 04:29 PM
#32
I knew this thread would start sooner than later.
I do agree with Cantona (matt) 's first post. Why do we run 6 qualifiers and still christmas tree bump ups. Ive seen people turn up late with no qualifying at all and still make the main because they bumped from the lowest final.
The events are to long i would say. I think shortening to 3 days and running 7 min heats is a good idea. Also eliminates the fastest drivers are the ones who can do a 10 min heat without fueling, if we shorten to 7 minutes means the fastest guys in qualifying are the actual fastest around the track as most engines can go 7 minutes.
Shortening events will attract more interstate drivers i think instead of a state title only consisting of people from that actual state lol.
Which is better for the sport.
Jarred.
I do agree with Cantona (matt) 's first post. Why do we run 6 qualifiers and still christmas tree bump ups. Ive seen people turn up late with no qualifying at all and still make the main because they bumped from the lowest final.
The events are to long i would say. I think shortening to 3 days and running 7 min heats is a good idea. Also eliminates the fastest drivers are the ones who can do a 10 min heat without fueling, if we shorten to 7 minutes means the fastest guys in qualifying are the actual fastest around the track as most engines can go 7 minutes.
Shortening events will attract more interstate drivers i think instead of a state title only consisting of people from that actual state lol.
Which is better for the sport.
Jarred.
Think of it this way, your pitman fuels your car before the start and can then go about HIS business of prepping for his race. Not everyone has a dedicated pitman who doesn't race!!
Something needs to be done and quickly! i'd hate to see it get to a point where state events end up being just large club races!
10-03-2010 | 09:37 PM
#33
Tech Regular
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 391
From: brad smith
The whole idea of qualifying is to get the best 15 drivers in the 45 to 60 min A-main.
our state and national competition is a stepping stone on to the ifmar IC worlds, we need to run our top competitions under these rules so we leave all the major rule changes to the world governing body. we do not have to re invent the wheel.
Here are my personal thoughts only on this
our state and national competition is a stepping stone on to the ifmar IC worlds, we need to run our top competitions under these rules so we leave all the major rule changes to the world governing body. we do not have to re invent the wheel.
Here are my personal thoughts only on this
- 3 day events
- Nominations closes at the fullfillment of 7 heats
- Santioned IC classes only
- hosting track closed 2 weeks prior to event start
- no practice rounds
- event starts on time and to schedule ( no waiting for marshalls if they are not in place by the 2 min mark best qual gone )
- 10 min quals and xmas tree finals not to be messed with as the drivers at the pointy end are the ones with the chance of going on to the worlds and they need to race under this format more than anyone.
- 1/4 1/2 and finals on sunday ( shorten practice session if time is getting short.
If the problem is events that are too long my idea would be 4 day events with Truggy to run Thursday and Friday, and IC Buggy to run Friday arvo to Sunday. That way anyone who wants to run both classes can do so at the same event. If you only want to run 1 class you only have to be there for 2-3 days..
Otherwise make it NO cross entering classes..that will save a fair bit of time.
10-03-2010 | 10:03 PM
#34
Tech Master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,889
From: Sunshine Coast
Whatever we do we need to ensure that it benefits the average punter. 3 day event events will be great for the serious racer as we will save a fair whack of money over the year.
But for the other couple of hundred guys who attend one race meet per year the savings won't be huge.
Still if we stay the way we are I believe our sport (at the competition level anyway) is in real trouble.
Basically we are not geting any new blood into the sport in any sigificant numbers.
So while reducing to a 3 day event is the right way to go......... and this may pull a few more guys to attend more than there state event, we still need to make major changes a lot of other things as well.
Cheers
Mark
But for the other couple of hundred guys who attend one race meet per year the savings won't be huge.
Still if we stay the way we are I believe our sport (at the competition level anyway) is in real trouble.
Basically we are not geting any new blood into the sport in any sigificant numbers.
So while reducing to a 3 day event is the right way to go......... and this may pull a few more guys to attend more than there state event, we still need to make major changes a lot of other things as well.
Cheers
Mark
10-04-2010 | 07:11 AM
#35
Tech Fanatic
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 770
Whatever we do we need to ensure that it benefits the average punter. 3 day event events will be great for the serious racer as we will save a fair whack of money over the year.
But for the other couple of hundred guys who attend one race meet per year the savings won't be huge.
Still if we stay the way we are I believe our sport (at the competition level anyway) is in real trouble.
Basically we are not geting any new blood into the sport in any sigificant numbers.
So while reducing to a 3 day event is the right way to go......... and this may pull a few more guys to attend more than there state event, we still need to make major changes a lot of other things as well.
Cheers
Mark
But for the other couple of hundred guys who attend one race meet per year the savings won't be huge.
Still if we stay the way we are I believe our sport (at the competition level anyway) is in real trouble.
Basically we are not geting any new blood into the sport in any sigificant numbers.
So while reducing to a 3 day event is the right way to go......... and this may pull a few more guys to attend more than there state event, we still need to make major changes a lot of other things as well.
Cheers
Mark
The distance from Adelaide to Sydney or Melbourne WILL BE THE SAME with 4 or 3 or also 1 day event.
The travelling cost from Adelaide to Sydney WILL BE THE SAME with 4/3/1 day event.
The entry fee WILL BE THE SAME, maybe more next year.
The accommodation: with 2 or 3 people you save $40 or $50 with 3 day event.
Hire a car: $20 or $30 with 3 day event.
I don t think that $80 or also $100 of saving is going to make the big difference when you have already spent $600 or $700.
I don t think that now that you have saved $100, you can afford to go to an other State Title.
The new schedule(3 day event) will give me 60 minutes track time.
I love this hobby, but travel 1500 km and spend $700 for 60 minutes of track time in 3 days?!?. I don t know. I have to start to think about it.
In Adelaide (SDMCC) we get 55 minutes in a club meet,$15 and done in 1 day.
Maybe, for 60 min. of track time, i can travel 350 or 400km max(Whyalla,Edenhope, Narracorte) with my mates and our car, in one day or two max, when they got their club meet or the 2 day event.
If we want to call a State Title "big event", should we get more then a club meet track time?.
Few people say that the 3 day event will help to get more people.
If now we can have 3 day because we got 80 entries what will happen if at one State Title we get 120 (163 at the NSW 2010)?. Are we going to run 3 minutes qual. and 10 min.final to put everyone in 3 day or we are going back to the 4 day?
At the moment on thursday there are 3 practice and 1 qual. If someone doesn t want or can not come on that day, he can still come on friday, have 3 day event with 5 qual and final and have more track time then the new 3 day schedule. Why take away this time from the majority of the people that are not going to race the main final on sunday.
Someone wants 7 min. qual. because someone else can do the 10 min. without pit. So?!? We got the same fuel tank(125) and the same engine size(21). Maybe is time to buy the right engine that give you 11 minutes.
If this is one of the reason about the 7 min. we should also say this: why there are people that can have a new set of tyre every qual. and other, like me ,not?. Maybe to put everyone at the same level we should have one set for practice, two set for 6 qual. and one for each final.
Marco
10-04-2010 | 02:50 PM
#36
Tech Elite
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,478
From: Brisbane
It's a numbers game..
The number of entrants very much determine the true lenght. The rules cater for a maximum 150 drivers (last I checked) and you can roughly calculate the amount of time by
Per heat
( Leadin + Warmup + Duration ) * ( Drivers / CarsOnGrid )
Per meet
Rounds * ( Leadin + Warmup + Duration ) * ( Drivers / CarsOnGrid )
With a day comprising of 400 minutes of racing ie 2 x 200 minute sessions, the ideal meet value would be 1200 minutes for a 4 day and 800 for a three day.
If the notion is to attract more drivers, the dilemma is that it'd be more social to shift things earlier complete Sunday early and open the track for some post social fun. That then makes it harder for those with work commitments.
Per heat
( Leadin + Warmup + Duration ) * ( Drivers / CarsOnGrid )
Per meet
Rounds * ( Leadin + Warmup + Duration ) * ( Drivers / CarsOnGrid )
With a day comprising of 400 minutes of racing ie 2 x 200 minute sessions, the ideal meet value would be 1200 minutes for a 4 day and 800 for a three day.
If the notion is to attract more drivers, the dilemma is that it'd be more social to shift things earlier complete Sunday early and open the track for some post social fun. That then makes it harder for those with work commitments.
10-04-2010 | 06:44 PM
#37
Lots of good reasoning here, I seem to agree with both sides.
My 5 cents worth,
3 day meets a great idea, but then you lose track time, and probably practice time too. But you save on taking an extra annual leave day from work, most people have to take off the monday after an interstate title trip, I know I do.
What about a 4 day meet as per usual, with 6 x 10min heats as usual, only change qualifying to 3 best results instead of 4.
That way if people only come on the friday and get 5 heats in, they can drop 2 of them, and still be close to the high end of finals qualifications.
I feel that most people that would only come on the friday would be the top drivers, as most lower drivers like me, would expect to maybe be in the quarter finals, so I'll be there thursday for practice for sure.
Most top drivers can run one heat and be on the pace with everyone else.
PS: im a big fan of controlled tires too. saves taking 40 pairs of different treads and compounds on a plane or in the boot etc.
My 5 cents worth,
3 day meets a great idea, but then you lose track time, and probably practice time too. But you save on taking an extra annual leave day from work, most people have to take off the monday after an interstate title trip, I know I do.
What about a 4 day meet as per usual, with 6 x 10min heats as usual, only change qualifying to 3 best results instead of 4.
That way if people only come on the friday and get 5 heats in, they can drop 2 of them, and still be close to the high end of finals qualifications.
I feel that most people that would only come on the friday would be the top drivers, as most lower drivers like me, would expect to maybe be in the quarter finals, so I'll be there thursday for practice for sure.
Most top drivers can run one heat and be on the pace with everyone else.
PS: im a big fan of controlled tires too. saves taking 40 pairs of different treads and compounds on a plane or in the boot etc.
10-04-2010 | 07:14 PM
#38
3 day events for sure ! 7 min quals seem fine, If you can make 10 mins use it to your advantage in the finals.
I do like the idea of control tires however with so many manufactures it would be to hard to keep everyone happy.
Maybe a different brand for every state title and open for nationals ? e.g QLD - vp pro, NSW- proline, WA - aka, SA - losi ?
All the importers will get there turn as well as the sponsored drivers.
Personally i have cut down the bigger gas meets because of cost and time away from work/uni with the 4+ day meets, however if its cut down to 3 days i will definatley be able to go to a few more.
ScottyK
I do like the idea of control tires however with so many manufactures it would be to hard to keep everyone happy.
Maybe a different brand for every state title and open for nationals ? e.g QLD - vp pro, NSW- proline, WA - aka, SA - losi ?
All the importers will get there turn as well as the sponsored drivers.
Personally i have cut down the bigger gas meets because of cost and time away from work/uni with the 4+ day meets, however if its cut down to 3 days i will definatley be able to go to a few more.
ScottyK
10-04-2010 | 08:32 PM
#39
Cutting down the track time means that you will lose people.
The distance from Adelaide to Sydney or Melbourne WILL BE THE SAME with 4 or 3 or also 1 day event.
The travelling cost from Adelaide to Sydney WILL BE THE SAME with 4/3/1 day event.
The entry fee WILL BE THE SAME, maybe more next year.
The accommodation: with 2 or 3 people you save $40 or $50 with 3 day event.
Hire a car: $20 or $30 with 3 day event.
I don t think that $80 or also $100 of saving is going to make the big difference when you have already spent $600 or $700.
I don t think that now that you have saved $100, you can afford to go to an other State Title.
The new schedule(3 day event) will give me 60 minutes track time.
I love this hobby, but travel 1500 km and spend $700 for 60 minutes of track time in 3 days?!?. I don t know. I have to start to think about it.
In Adelaide (SDMCC) we get 55 minutes in a club meet,$15 and done in 1 day.
Maybe, for 60 min. of track time, i can travel 350 or 400km max(Whyalla,Edenhope, Narracorte) with my mates and our car, in one day or two max, when they got their club meet or the 2 day event.
If we want to call a State Title "big event", should we get more then a club meet track time?.
Few people say that the 3 day event will help to get more people.
If now we can have 3 day because we got 80 entries what will happen if at one State Title we get 120 (163 at the NSW 2010)?. Are we going to run 3 minutes qual. and 10 min.final to put everyone in 3 day or we are going back to the 4 day?
At the moment on thursday there are 3 practice and 1 qual. If someone doesn t want or can not come on that day, he can still come on friday, have 3 day event with 5 qual and final and have more track time then the new 3 day schedule. Why take away this time from the majority of the people that are not going to race the main final on sunday.
Someone wants 7 min. qual. because someone else can do the 10 min. without pit. So?!? We got the same fuel tank(125) and the same engine size(21). Maybe is time to buy the right engine that give you 11 minutes.
If this is one of the reason about the 7 min. we should also say this: why there are people that can have a new set of tyre every qual. and other, like me ,not?. Maybe to put everyone at the same level we should have one set for practice, two set for 6 qual. and one for each final.
Marco
The distance from Adelaide to Sydney or Melbourne WILL BE THE SAME with 4 or 3 or also 1 day event.
The travelling cost from Adelaide to Sydney WILL BE THE SAME with 4/3/1 day event.
The entry fee WILL BE THE SAME, maybe more next year.
The accommodation: with 2 or 3 people you save $40 or $50 with 3 day event.
Hire a car: $20 or $30 with 3 day event.
I don t think that $80 or also $100 of saving is going to make the big difference when you have already spent $600 or $700.
I don t think that now that you have saved $100, you can afford to go to an other State Title.
The new schedule(3 day event) will give me 60 minutes track time.
I love this hobby, but travel 1500 km and spend $700 for 60 minutes of track time in 3 days?!?. I don t know. I have to start to think about it.
In Adelaide (SDMCC) we get 55 minutes in a club meet,$15 and done in 1 day.
Maybe, for 60 min. of track time, i can travel 350 or 400km max(Whyalla,Edenhope, Narracorte) with my mates and our car, in one day or two max, when they got their club meet or the 2 day event.
If we want to call a State Title "big event", should we get more then a club meet track time?.
Few people say that the 3 day event will help to get more people.
If now we can have 3 day because we got 80 entries what will happen if at one State Title we get 120 (163 at the NSW 2010)?. Are we going to run 3 minutes qual. and 10 min.final to put everyone in 3 day or we are going back to the 4 day?
At the moment on thursday there are 3 practice and 1 qual. If someone doesn t want or can not come on that day, he can still come on friday, have 3 day event with 5 qual and final and have more track time then the new 3 day schedule. Why take away this time from the majority of the people that are not going to race the main final on sunday.
Someone wants 7 min. qual. because someone else can do the 10 min. without pit. So?!? We got the same fuel tank(125) and the same engine size(21). Maybe is time to buy the right engine that give you 11 minutes.
If this is one of the reason about the 7 min. we should also say this: why there are people that can have a new set of tyre every qual. and other, like me ,not?. Maybe to put everyone at the same level we should have one set for practice, two set for 6 qual. and one for each final.
Marco
)
10-04-2010 | 10:42 PM
#40
Tech Master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,889
From: Sunshine Coast
I agree by cutting the meet down is not going to bring a lot more people to the event.
If you notice the people on here pushing a 3 day event are the ones that would normally attend up 5-6 events a year.
But for the average racer a 3 day event is pretty much as above. However, the average racer rarely gets to more than 1 event anyway.
So while you figures are correct if we left at 4 days I believe that the average racer will still not travel.
So clearly 4 day events gives you extra race time..........but the numbers don't lie and why would we stay with something that is in decline or flat lining??
Regardless of what is decided I know a lot the racers I have talked to are going to cut the first day (if we stay with 4 days) and turn it into a 3 day event.
Now if we really want to increase numbers we need to go back to the grass roots of this sport......... THE CLUBS.
We also need to make AARCMCC financial........... I can not believe that our so called national body is not financial. Currently there are 25 offroad clubs affiliated with AARCMCC which takes $70 per club (or thereabouts)............
So of the $1,750.......... 50% goes to FEMCA (I didn't even know that), the balance is chewed up on internet costs, rego fees etc.
So in real terms AARCMCC is lucky to break even!!!!!!
Cheers
Mark
If you notice the people on here pushing a 3 day event are the ones that would normally attend up 5-6 events a year.
But for the average racer a 3 day event is pretty much as above. However, the average racer rarely gets to more than 1 event anyway.
So while you figures are correct if we left at 4 days I believe that the average racer will still not travel.
So clearly 4 day events gives you extra race time..........but the numbers don't lie and why would we stay with something that is in decline or flat lining??
Regardless of what is decided I know a lot the racers I have talked to are going to cut the first day (if we stay with 4 days) and turn it into a 3 day event.
Now if we really want to increase numbers we need to go back to the grass roots of this sport......... THE CLUBS.
We also need to make AARCMCC financial........... I can not believe that our so called national body is not financial. Currently there are 25 offroad clubs affiliated with AARCMCC which takes $70 per club (or thereabouts)............
So of the $1,750.......... 50% goes to FEMCA (I didn't even know that), the balance is chewed up on internet costs, rego fees etc.
So in real terms AARCMCC is lucky to break even!!!!!!
Cheers
Mark
10-05-2010 | 01:11 AM
#41
I think there is good points both ways.
Shorter events Good
IC Only
7 min qual , everyone does the same.
The long finals is where the racing happens and improves your racing , so longer finals
If your a very average driver like myself you can be out by Saturday arvo , no Sunday racing at 4 day
There is no division of classes , PRO and SPORTSMAN.
Some of us will never make an A main final at a big meet so if the numbers are right why can't it be split into 2 classes ?
Shorter events Good
IC Only
7 min qual , everyone does the same.
The long finals is where the racing happens and improves your racing , so longer finals
If your a very average driver like myself you can be out by Saturday arvo , no Sunday racing at 4 day
There is no division of classes , PRO and SPORTSMAN.
Some of us will never make an A main final at a big meet so if the numbers are right why can't it be split into 2 classes ?
Last edited by BSC; 10-05-2010 at 01:45 AM.
10-05-2010 | 01:48 AM
#42
Tech Regular
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 391
From: brad smith
Isn't it funny that only 5-6 years ago we were desperately trying to get more entries to the sanctioned events. (most events 6-10 years ago had maybe max 50 entries??) We added Stadium Trucks to the events in the hope of getting better numbers.. It seemed to work with many former electric drivers progressing through that class to 8th buggies... That and the fact that IC Offroad started becoming more popular globally.
Now people seem to think we have a problem with too many entrants, making the events too long. It seems to me that people running multiple classes has caused most of the issues. We tried splitting the classes a few years back and that didn't work, so we either have to cut classes, cut drivers, limit the entrants to one class, or separate the event into truggy first 1.5 days and buggy last 2.5 days as I mentioned earlier.
I really think that cutting down the amount of race time per entrant will hurt more than it will help. 1 Class only entries will hurt the club with entry fees . The best all round solution would be the split days.. actually it wouldn't really need to be submitted as a formal proposal I think as there is really only a suggested schedule for these events...
Now people seem to think we have a problem with too many entrants, making the events too long. It seems to me that people running multiple classes has caused most of the issues. We tried splitting the classes a few years back and that didn't work, so we either have to cut classes, cut drivers, limit the entrants to one class, or separate the event into truggy first 1.5 days and buggy last 2.5 days as I mentioned earlier.
I really think that cutting down the amount of race time per entrant will hurt more than it will help. 1 Class only entries will hurt the club with entry fees . The best all round solution would be the split days.. actually it wouldn't really need to be submitted as a formal proposal I think as there is really only a suggested schedule for these events...
10-06-2010 | 04:42 AM
#43
Tech Initiate
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 35
100% on that call brad who said xxxx clouds the mind hahahah
or why dont state titles run under rocket round format with 7 min heats with 12-15 car finals a/b/c etc etc
this would give drivers insentive to qualify well to make the a main
and for the nats leave it as ifmar format
or why dont state titles run under rocket round format with 7 min heats with 12-15 car finals a/b/c etc etc
this would give drivers insentive to qualify well to make the a main
and for the nats leave it as ifmar format
10-07-2010 | 04:03 PM
#44
Tech Regular
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 264
Love the idea of a three day race and 7min quals (honestly 7min quals hurt my performance as I'm in the slow and steady category and can make run time easily but I think it is in the best interest of our hobby).
- In the US, they have no problem over subscribing races with few/short qualifying races. Often you read about 300 odd entry races being completed in two days!
- Big races are to test yourself against the best. Club races are where you hone your skills before taking on the best. You will never get as much track time as you would at a club race but similarly at a club race you won't get 100 of the best drivers in the country.
- Looking at the points system in the other thread, lets have the nats plus three state champs to count for points for the year so that all the top drivers are at the four major events.
- I like cross entries, like I said before, big events are there to test yourself against the best.
Lastly, this issue got a very negative response at the AARCMCC AGM in Adelaide, if you feel strongly about the issue you need to lobby your local member/club to put the motion forward and vote accordingly.
- In the US, they have no problem over subscribing races with few/short qualifying races. Often you read about 300 odd entry races being completed in two days!
- Big races are to test yourself against the best. Club races are where you hone your skills before taking on the best. You will never get as much track time as you would at a club race but similarly at a club race you won't get 100 of the best drivers in the country.
- Looking at the points system in the other thread, lets have the nats plus three state champs to count for points for the year so that all the top drivers are at the four major events.
- I like cross entries, like I said before, big events are there to test yourself against the best.
Lastly, this issue got a very negative response at the AARCMCC AGM in Adelaide, if you feel strongly about the issue you need to lobby your local member/club to put the motion forward and vote accordingly.
10-08-2010 | 05:24 AM
#45
Tech Adept
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 115
From: Geraldton WA
I say leave it the way it is for a few reasons.
1. You can turn up on friday if you want, you will only miss 1 round.
2. I know i dont compete at alot of events that require me to fly (because of my work) but when i do i enjoy the 4 days of racing, and if you shorten it to much it becomes to rushed and thats not enjoyable.
3. Alot of people that complain about the meets being to long are the people that lets face it probably will not turn up regardless! The haters will always find a reason not to go.
As i say just because practice starts on Thusrday does not mean you have to turn up, you could always go on Friday and save on your hotel, car hire ect ect. Then for someone like me that enjoys the xtra day i can go Thursday, BOOM we all win!
1. You can turn up on friday if you want, you will only miss 1 round.
2. I know i dont compete at alot of events that require me to fly (because of my work) but when i do i enjoy the 4 days of racing, and if you shorten it to much it becomes to rushed and thats not enjoyable.
3. Alot of people that complain about the meets being to long are the people that lets face it probably will not turn up regardless! The haters will always find a reason not to go.
As i say just because practice starts on Thusrday does not mean you have to turn up, you could always go on Friday and save on your hotel, car hire ect ect. Then for someone like me that enjoys the xtra day i can go Thursday, BOOM we all win!