Battery bars
01-07-2006, 08:31 AM
#31
Why are they a total joke? Heat is created in the battery which is in the battery bars as well. The little heat sinks probably do not do a lot... but do provide some effect. There should be little to no "extra" resistance from them... so why would they be a joke?
01-07-2006, 08:45 AM
#32
ok, they work technically/in theory. But like was mentioned earlier, a good joint would make much more difference. I cant belive how nitty gritty this hobby has got,
Even F1 is not this picky.
Even F1 is not this picky.
01-07-2006, 09:18 AM
#33
Tech Initiate
Originally Posted by b3n
As long as the battery bar does not contain a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer, it should be ok.
01-07-2006, 09:45 AM
#34
Originally Posted by pheyhoe
ok, they work technically/in theory. But like was mentioned earlier, a good joint would make much more difference. I cant belive how nitty gritty this hobby has got,
Even F1 is not this picky.
Even F1 is not this picky.
lol way to back out of your statement. I was just curious what made you think this.. nothing more. I think its interesting when people post their random opinion (which is great, dont get me wrong) but then do not provide anything behind it to back it up.
I haven't heard anything negative about fusion's joints either.
I love hearing peoples opinions... really opens up your mind and gets your thinking about things from all angles. But opinions with no backing are just flaming as far as I'm concerened.
01-07-2006, 02:11 PM
#36
Originally Posted by XMSRacing
lol way to back out of your statement. I was just curious what made you think this.. nothing more. I think its interesting when people post their random opinion (which is great, dont get me wrong) but then do not provide anything behind it to back it up.
I haven't heard anything negative about fusion's joints either.
I love hearing peoples opinions... really opens up your mind and gets your thinking about things from all angles. But opinions with no backing are just flaming as far as I'm concerened.
I haven't heard anything negative about fusion's joints either.
I love hearing peoples opinions... really opens up your mind and gets your thinking about things from all angles. But opinions with no backing are just flaming as far as I'm concerened.
what backing do you want????? If there is anybody out there that could compare both types of battery bar and give us some results that show a worthy performance gain please post them.
01-07-2006, 02:38 PM
#37
WOW...this is kinda crazy.
Before you read my post please be aware that I am not a chemist and no nothing about metals. My only experience that might help is about 15 years or building battery packs.
The most commonly used battery bar in my experience is the Deans unit. This is a plated silver bar. It a very good basic bar and I used to use it exclusively. Still a very good bar but I do feel the quality control with Deans is not to good and their plating process my be varied. The reason I saw this as I notice that I could buy 200 battery bars at a time and over the course of months or even years, some of the battery bars would stat to discolor and turn yellow. This may be nothing at all but I take it as bad plating or poor quality control as I have never seen this with any other bar I have ever used!
Once the Orion Dogboones came out I started using them for no other reason in particiluar than it looked like the solder joint could be made stiffer and that there is greater surface area on the bar to help make better/more contact on the end of the cell. I tried all 3 platings (silver, gold and platimum) and finally wound up sticking with the platimun bars as I was able to source these at the same cost as the silver bars. I noticed no performance difference (either positive or negative) between platings. Also, unlike what another poster said, I never once noticed any corrosion of any kind with the platimun bars. I would find it hard to beleive that platimum would be more prone to corrosion than silver or gold. Especially since every catalytic converter in the USA has platimum in it versus gold or silver.
About 2 years ago, I switched over to the new Pro Match bar. They look basically like the Deans but are twice as wide. They are also supposed to be made of oxygen free copper. I also use the Novak bar when I can find it. At times this bar can be impossible to find. The Novak offers the same benefit as the Pro-Match but just looks cooler!
The wider bar offers more surface area than the other and allows the assembled pack to remain stiffer without having to glue the cells together.
So far I have not noticed a bar that performed better or worse than another. I have however found bars that I prefer to use more than others. The key is to find a bar that is easy to solder, easy to work with and one that you can find in quantities and at at cost you can afford.
I would personally be more worried about the quality of solder you use and the soldering iron you use than battery bars. Solder is a huge deal along with the gun...but that's an entirely different thread!
Before you read my post please be aware that I am not a chemist and no nothing about metals. My only experience that might help is about 15 years or building battery packs.
The most commonly used battery bar in my experience is the Deans unit. This is a plated silver bar. It a very good basic bar and I used to use it exclusively. Still a very good bar but I do feel the quality control with Deans is not to good and their plating process my be varied. The reason I saw this as I notice that I could buy 200 battery bars at a time and over the course of months or even years, some of the battery bars would stat to discolor and turn yellow. This may be nothing at all but I take it as bad plating or poor quality control as I have never seen this with any other bar I have ever used!
Once the Orion Dogboones came out I started using them for no other reason in particiluar than it looked like the solder joint could be made stiffer and that there is greater surface area on the bar to help make better/more contact on the end of the cell. I tried all 3 platings (silver, gold and platimum) and finally wound up sticking with the platimun bars as I was able to source these at the same cost as the silver bars. I noticed no performance difference (either positive or negative) between platings. Also, unlike what another poster said, I never once noticed any corrosion of any kind with the platimun bars. I would find it hard to beleive that platimum would be more prone to corrosion than silver or gold. Especially since every catalytic converter in the USA has platimum in it versus gold or silver.
About 2 years ago, I switched over to the new Pro Match bar. They look basically like the Deans but are twice as wide. They are also supposed to be made of oxygen free copper. I also use the Novak bar when I can find it. At times this bar can be impossible to find. The Novak offers the same benefit as the Pro-Match but just looks cooler!
The wider bar offers more surface area than the other and allows the assembled pack to remain stiffer without having to glue the cells together.
So far I have not noticed a bar that performed better or worse than another. I have however found bars that I prefer to use more than others. The key is to find a bar that is easy to solder, easy to work with and one that you can find in quantities and at at cost you can afford.
I would personally be more worried about the quality of solder you use and the soldering iron you use than battery bars. Solder is a huge deal along with the gun...but that's an entirely different thread!
01-07-2006, 04:24 PM
#38
Originally Posted by pheyhoe
a good joint would make much more difference..
Ahhhh, nothing beats a good joint.
Pass me the Funyuns........
01-07-2006, 05:55 PM
#39
Originally Posted by Soviet
I did some research there last summer and co-authored a paper on paleo-climactic change with the Head of Geosciences, Dr. Bralower.
Last summer I was at Washington University working on a paper involving the Greek-orthodontia procedures. The head of the Pseudo-Research Department, Dr. Yin Xlang, was the leader of our research team.
Top That Soviet!
01-07-2006, 06:20 PM
#40
Originally Posted by pheyhoe
ok, they work technically/in theory. But like was mentioned earlier, a good joint would make much more difference. I cant belive how nitty gritty this hobby has got,
Even F1 is not this picky.
Even F1 is not this picky.
01-07-2006, 10:22 PM
#41
Originally Posted by Soviet
I did some research there last summer and co-authored a paper on paleo-climactic change with the Head of Geosciences, Dr. Bralower.
01-07-2006, 11:21 PM
#42
Well, I'll take a second out of my busy schedule to post a little information here for those that want to learn something, and also to entertain BATT_MAN too! 
The idea that elctricity, or more accurately the flow of electrons, only happens on the surface of a conductor is old school. The truth is that flow begins at the surface, but as the volume (amperage) increases, the amount of material conducting the flow increases and begins to move closer to the center of the material. If your conductor were round, then under relatively low amperage the material allowing the flow would look like a thin walled tube, but as the volume (amperage) increases, the wall of the tube gets thicker and thicker.
So how is this relative to our battery bars? Well, BATT_MAN is correct that the plating is so thin that the only time you might actually be able to tell a measurable difference is super low current. In our case, we use a lot of current so the actual bar material is doing most of the work. The vast majority of the bars out there are copper based material with a very thin plating.
What concerns me the most about this thread is that the persons I expected to give useful information haven't done so! Shame on you guys!!
For those of you who don't know this, you should take heed and don't let this good advice go in one eye and out the other!!
While the bar or manufacturer might not be very important, and the soldering technique and solder IS very important, the way you prepare your bar and cells is also very important!! First you should lightly sand or scuff the center of the cell's button and case (negative end) to assure there is no coatings and most importantly to give the solder a rough surface to make good adhesion. Next you should do the same to the surface of the bar where it contacts the cell, but on the bar you absolutely positively need to sandthrough the plating!! If you don't, there a very good chance the bar can pop loose and leave the plating attatched to the solder- it happens all the time!! But what's worse, is that this can happen but not detatch fully- then you have a situation where the bar is barely making contact, but it looks fine to the naked eye. This is very bad, cause now you will spend days on a wild goose chase looking for the reason of your loss in performance.
Personally I use the flat side of a cut-off wheel on my dremel to keep my surface flat. I also use goos rosin flux and clean the flux off after assembly. Here's another tip- if you use some motor spray and clean the solder joints right after assembly, the flux will come off very easily. Use an old toothbrush with the motor spray on those stubborn spots.
Also, if you're worried about overheating the cells during soldering, and you have a very good iron, just put them in the fridge for a few hours after you prep everything for assembly but before you do the soldering. With a good iron you won't even be able to tell they are cold, but instead of potentially boiling the electrolyte, you will just warm the cells up to normal temperature. No problem!!!
The idea that elctricity, or more accurately the flow of electrons, only happens on the surface of a conductor is old school. The truth is that flow begins at the surface, but as the volume (amperage) increases, the amount of material conducting the flow increases and begins to move closer to the center of the material. If your conductor were round, then under relatively low amperage the material allowing the flow would look like a thin walled tube, but as the volume (amperage) increases, the wall of the tube gets thicker and thicker.
So how is this relative to our battery bars? Well, BATT_MAN is correct that the plating is so thin that the only time you might actually be able to tell a measurable difference is super low current. In our case, we use a lot of current so the actual bar material is doing most of the work. The vast majority of the bars out there are copper based material with a very thin plating.
What concerns me the most about this thread is that the persons I expected to give useful information haven't done so! Shame on you guys!!
For those of you who don't know this, you should take heed and don't let this good advice go in one eye and out the other!!
While the bar or manufacturer might not be very important, and the soldering technique and solder IS very important, the way you prepare your bar and cells is also very important!! First you should lightly sand or scuff the center of the cell's button and case (negative end) to assure there is no coatings and most importantly to give the solder a rough surface to make good adhesion. Next you should do the same to the surface of the bar where it contacts the cell, but on the bar you absolutely positively need to sandthrough the plating!! If you don't, there a very good chance the bar can pop loose and leave the plating attatched to the solder- it happens all the time!! But what's worse, is that this can happen but not detatch fully- then you have a situation where the bar is barely making contact, but it looks fine to the naked eye. This is very bad, cause now you will spend days on a wild goose chase looking for the reason of your loss in performance.
Personally I use the flat side of a cut-off wheel on my dremel to keep my surface flat. I also use goos rosin flux and clean the flux off after assembly. Here's another tip- if you use some motor spray and clean the solder joints right after assembly, the flux will come off very easily. Use an old toothbrush with the motor spray on those stubborn spots.
Also, if you're worried about overheating the cells during soldering, and you have a very good iron, just put them in the fridge for a few hours after you prep everything for assembly but before you do the soldering. With a good iron you won't even be able to tell they are cold, but instead of potentially boiling the electrolyte, you will just warm the cells up to normal temperature. No problem!!!
01-07-2006, 11:46 PM
#43
Originally Posted by BigDogRacing
Also, if you're worried about overheating the cells during soldering, and you have a very good iron, just put them in the fridge for a few hours after you prep everything for assembly but before you do the soldering. With a good iron you won't even be able to tell they are cold, but instead of potentially boiling the electrolyte, you will just warm the cells up to normal temperature. No problem!!!
I don't think that's a good idea, as it can cause internal condensation.
Water + electricity = bad.
01-08-2006, 12:31 AM
#44
Originally Posted by ChadCapece
And you managed to learn nothing
Last summer I was at Washington University working on a paper involving the Greek-orthodontia procedures. The head of the Pseudo-Research Department, Dr. Yin Xlang, was the leader of our research team.
Top That Soviet!
Last summer I was at Washington University working on a paper involving the Greek-orthodontia procedures. The head of the Pseudo-Research Department, Dr. Yin Xlang, was the leader of our research team.
Top That Soviet!
Learn nothing???
The Aptian (Geologic period) was subject to two consecutive OAEs (Ocean Anoxic Events), pointing towards a correlation between increased oceanic carbon content and correspondingly increased atmospheric oxygen (Lower CO2). Since current oceanic carbon content is roughly 20% below that of the Aptian, it figures that the current climate trends towards warming.
BTW...WTF is Pseudo-Research???
Were you just trying to look busy??? I'm sure the NSF would be rather dis-pleased with what their money went towards. 
01-08-2006, 12:32 AM
#45
Originally Posted by EngTat
sorry, imean are u in studying or working they? so wandering where do u race? the only race track i been was steel hobby (i am not local)
I was working / studying there. I don't attend Penn State as a student, I attend UNC Elizabeth City, ECSU.
www.ecsu.edu