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Old 10-26-2018 | 04:31 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by billdelong
It really sounds like we're comparing apples to oranges... one might consider "tuning opportunity" as "unnecessary complication". I came in late to the game around 2010, so the only brushed racing I saw was Spec motors in sealed (non tunable) cans... the extent of tuning we had was using comm drops and that was it.

I'd like to see a break down of each tuning attribute and see how things have changed with the migration to brushless racing dominating the market. If brushed motors were so much better, then I don't understand why they are no longer marketed for racing anymore?
Bingo. All that complication was because you had to do that to get the most out of a brushed motor. It sucked, brushless improved things greatly.
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Old 10-26-2018 | 08:47 PM
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Im not sure what is meant by brushless being more efficient. It is better in most every way except torque density. Look up torque constants of same frame brushed versus brushless. You get more torque per amp out of brushed.

a magnetic field takes time to collapse and expand and its not the same in both directions. as the rotor moves faster it gets more important that the field collapses fast enough to avoid repelling the next permanent magnet. at higher rpms the field changes angle which creates more complication. dynamic timing is something a brushless motor can be setup to do. im not aware of a way to do that with fixed commutation in a brushed motor.

since continuous power is peak power limited by the motors ability to convect heat away... a rotor that is energized (brushed) absorbs heat rather than the case on a brushless. so heat is transferred to the air moving around in the air gap but the surface area is a little less than the case. So heat will build on the rotor shaft and be transferred to the bearings and then in turn transferred to the case. you usually have hot spots at the bearings. Peak power is greater in a brushed power but continuous is less because convection and conduction arent working as well as brushless.

Brushed motors have almost completely died in robots for primarily 1 reason. most people arent aware of the previous points. they died because of maintenance.

high end motion control is dominated by 2 motor types. variants of a brushless dc motor (synchronous) and variants of an AC motor (asynchronous). The ESC or drive that is providing power is synched to the rotor or not but the waveform is the same fundamentally. if you have an asynch motor eddy currents are created to move a non PM rotor. if you have a PM motor eddy currents are not created to move the rotor the attraction and repel forces come from an electro magnet and a permanent magnet.

is aluminum magnetic? look up some youtube videos and you will see some pretty interesting stuff that look like magic. an eddy current is created that puts the brakes on a magnet moving over aluminum. it doesnt repel or attract. I always wondered why people paid money for aluminum bolts for aluminum bolts in the motor can.

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Old 10-26-2018 | 10:31 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Bry195
Im not sure what is meant by brushless being more efficient. It is better in most every way except torque density. Look up torque constants of same frame brushed versus brushless. You get more torque per amp out of brushed.
There's friction between the brush and commutator and the parts wear out fast. There's a big loss in efficiency right there.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 03:39 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
Bingo. All that complication was because you had to do that to get the most out of a brushed motor. It sucked, brushless improved things greatly.
You think?????
The startup of racing with Brushless had the ESC of the month, continious new ESC's performing better, it took a while that the hardware stayed the same and firmware updates become possible.
Even in stockracing with all the same motor and a blinky ESC there are a lot of perfomance differences on the track, for sure if you use a box stock motor it will have the worst performance.
Again, shimming is most important. Using a motor analizer to read the sensor positions and with the solder iron to outline sensors to be equal and even with morte timing is also done to gain more performance. Rewinding stators to get a shorter wire is still possible on races where the resistance limit is not meassured. The new trend is to replace the 3 scres of the housing for titanium or another non magnetic material.
Not to mention cheating tricks like mounting a blinking LED in the ESC that it stays blinking no matter what program is used.

And the list goes on......

Most of the tricks are based to gain extra sensor timing so get rid of the sensor timing and stockracing will become even more simple and more equal.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 04:12 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Roelof
You think?????
The startup of racing with Brushless had the ESC of the month, continious new ESC's performing better, it took a while that the hardware stayed the same and firmware updates become possible.
Even in stockracing with all the same motor and a blinky ESC there are a lot of perfomance differences on the track, for sure if you use a box stock motor it will have the worst performance.
Again, shimming is most important. Using a motor analizer to read the sensor positions and with the solder iron to outline sensors to be equal and even with morte timing is also done to gain more performance. Rewinding stators to get a shorter wire is still possible on races where the resistance limit is not meassured. The new trend is to replace the 3 scres of the housing for titanium or another non magnetic material.
Not to mention cheating tricks like mounting a blinking LED in the ESC that it stays blinking no matter what program is used.

And the list goes on......

Most of the tricks are based to gain extra sensor timing so get rid of the sensor timing and stockracing will become even more simple and more equal.
I said it's better. I didn't say it's perfect. And seriously, that part that I bolded? You basically just said it's possible to cheat when they're not looking. That's not unique to brushless. People got caught cranking the timing or rewinding the armature on brushed motors back in the day.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 05:04 AM
  #21  
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True, but rewinding the stator and re-soldering sensors is something the avarage racer will not think of, or can not do.But shimming and creating extra play on the mounting of the sensor board is one of the things most racers do to get an extra timing but is unknown to the starting racer. Get rid of the sensor and there is a better reason the motor endbell can be locked/welded/soldered to stay closed.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 06:36 AM
  #22  
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Rev limit controlled by the ESC would solve nearly all the stock issues. The 2018/2019 European Touring Car Series(ETS) is running a brand new 17.5t class using a MuchMore ESC, I believe they have set the limit at 19,000rpm via special software and a fixed gear ratio, I don't think a controlled gear ratio is practical for club racing though.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Bry195
is aluminum magnetic? look up some youtube videos and you will see some pretty interesting stuff that look like magic. an eddy current is created that puts the brakes on a magnet moving over aluminum. it doesnt repel or attract. I always wondered why people paid money for aluminum bolts for aluminum bolts in the motor can.
I really appreciate posts like this as they entice my curiosity. I work at a tech company in a non-technical role which is perfect for my lack of attention span. My ADD sym/asym research tells me that symmetrical motors work well at low rpm and disadvantage in cost. Both of these are barriers to entry in rc. For a given voltage and current, rpm increasing as load decreases is a desirable quality which aids driveability.

Eddy currents and "magnetic" aluminum. Our equipment uses this principle to enhance accuracy. A really cool experiment to see how it works is to drop a magnet down an aluminum tube. Since aluminum is NOT magnetic, it won't stick to the side. It IS however conductive. Just like passing a magnet past a copper coil which creates electricity, the magnet falling through the tube acts like a coil creating a current and therefore, a magnetic field. The field attempts to hold the magnet in place which slows the falling magnet to a speed limited by the efficiency of the tube's conductivity. It's a bit trippy.

And on AL screws... The benefit is that they do not have a static effect on the magnetic field like steel. Since steel is also conductive they have both a static and dynamic effect on the field, albiet less dynamic since it's less conductive than AL. The truth is in the numbers though. Motors turn more rpm with non-magnetic hardware. The hall sensor accuracy (which we measure in asymmetry) also increases with non-magnetic hardware. Stainless or TI would be better than AL. Find me a non-magnetic and non-conductive screw and I'll pay big dollars for them.
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Last edited by gubbs3; 10-27-2018 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 08:00 AM
  #24  
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ceramic bearings

before them.. we used dentist drill bearings... super high speed.. stainless steel..

on the 27 turn Stock motors.. it was possible to alter the brush hood for the brushes to change timing....
cut the commutator down small.. more rpms... and power..
as there was more brush to commutator contact.. but cut the brush face to reduce friction. and the comm drops.
then drill a very small hole into face of brush.. insert cotton.. so you have more comm drops on the brush longer.

not about motors... but the 1/10 scale carpet pan car

1/2 inch thick by 6 inches by 6 inches.. machined True flat steel plate
1000 and 2000 grit wet/dry sand paper.
to flat polish the diff rings..
then get from US bearing..... 1/8 inch ball bearings..... grade 8 steel, ground to 0.00001... true.. 100 in a box.
for a super smooth diff... a smoother diff has more speed.

I could spend 10 hours per week.. just to get ready for the STOCK class pan car Saturday night Race.. for years...
I started RC racing in 1991...

Last edited by chuck_thehammer; 10-27-2018 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 10:16 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Bar
Rev limit controlled by the ESC would solve nearly all the stock issues. The 2018/2019 European Touring Car Series(ETS) is running a brand new 17.5t class using a MuchMore ESC, I believe they have set the limit at 19,000rpm via special software and a fixed gear ratio, I don't think a controlled gear ratio is practical for club racing though.
Yes and no.... when working with an handout motor indeed the differences will be minimized. If people can bring in their own motors then the war on torque will start....
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Old 10-27-2018 | 10:27 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by billdelong
It really sounds like we're comparing apples to oranges... one might consider "tuning opportunity" as "unnecessary complication". I came in late to the game around 2010, so the only brushed racing I saw was Spec motors in sealed (non tunable) cans... the extent of tuning we had was using comm drops and that was it.

I began racing in 1984, have seen a lot of things come and go.

I'd like to see a break down of each tuning attribute and see how things have changed with the migration to brushless racing dominating the market. If brushed motors were so much better, then I don't understand why they are no longer marketed for racing anymore?

Windings - Did folks actually make their own stators for brushed motors? Current brushless manufacturers sell replacement stators, is this not the same thing?

The armature of a brushed motor does the job of stator in brushless. The equivalent of a 7.5 stator in a brushed armature was available in several different winding options.

Timing - With brushless motors, this is adjusted by rotating the sensor board and measured within 1° of accuracy across all 3 phases with a motor analyzer, how was this adjustment made with any accuracy on brushed motors?

Timing phases are perfect on armature. Timing was adjusted by rotating the whole endbell.

Shimming - Pretty much the same, you want the bulk of the rotor centered on the stator, the motor analyzer shows you how perfectly centered you are as the reading of all 3 timing phases get closer together... how does this work with brushed motors?
similar. Had less to do with timing accuracy, more to do with magnetic field.

AirGap - I don't even know what this means, please explain more on this and how it can't be adjusted with brushless

Gap between armature stack and magnet. On brushless, this is adjusted with rotor diameter.

Brush hardness/cut, spring stiffness, commutator diameter - These are elements of gross inefficiency that were eliminated with brushless

Brushless is unquestionably more efficient. Brushes and their replacement were a tuning option that we no longer need to think about.

Armature Stack - I have no idea how this is tuned either, please help me understand this better too.

similar to stator stack. Armature were available in non-standard stacks (mostly sealed stock motors).

Something that I see very common with brushless motors today is the ability to swap out various rotors to tune magnetic strength to get more torque/acceleration or transfer to a different rotor which provides higher RPM depending on track conditions. Was this done the same with brushed motor racing too?

When did ceramic bearings first come out? That is another tuning option that I've seen with brushless motors.
they've been around a very long time. More fragile, but good for high rpm, lower load applicatiins.

I've also seen non-magnetic titanium timing plates marketed as a tuning option for brushless motors to improve performance.
In summary, there was much more "voodoo" surrounding. I was a fairly budget oriented racer and I kept as many as 10 modified motors in my pit box at any given time. I’ve been running the same 17.5 motor for 1.5 seasons now and only keep one spare. Racers knew more about the composition of the components inside their motors, and often disassembled their motors on some level, every single run. Batteries were a whole other ball of wax.
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Last edited by Davidka; 10-27-2018 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 01:18 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Roelof
Yes and no.... when working with an handout motor indeed the differences will be minimized. If people can bring in their own motors then the war on torque will start....
Hand out motors just aren't feasible for most club racing, I agree it's the best way for bigger meets. But for club racing I can see no better way than an ESC which has a rev controlled limit to go with the matching turn motor. The ETS decided on a 17.5t motor set at 19,000rpm by the software on the ESC, I think it blinks a certain colour the same way blinky works now. There would be small differences between motors but I feel it would be a lot less. I race mod so I don't have #stockproblems.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 08:30 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by gubbs3
I really appreciate posts like this as they entice my curiosity. I work at a tech company in a non-technical role which is perfect for my lack of attention span. My ADD sym/asym research tells me that symmetrical motors work well at low rpm and disadvantage in cost. Both of these are barriers to entry in rc. For a given voltage and current, rpm increasing as load decreases is a desirable quality which aids driveability.

Eddy currents and "magnetic" aluminum. Our equipment uses this principle to enhance accuracy. A really cool experiment to see how it works is to drop a magnet down an aluminum tube. Since aluminum is NOT magnetic, it won't stick to the side. It IS however conductive. Just like passing a magnet past a copper coil which creates electricity, the magnet falling through the tube acts like a coil creating a current and therefore, a magnetic field. The field attempts to hold the magnet in place which slows the falling magnet to a speed limited by the efficiency of the tube's conductivity. It's a bit trippy.

And on AL screws... The benefit is that they do not have a static effect on the magnetic field like steel. Since steel is also conductive they have both a static and dynamic effect on the field, albiet less dynamic since it's less conductive than AL. The truth is in the numbers though. Motors turn more rpm with non-magnetic hardware. The hall sensor accuracy (which we measure in asymmetry) also increases with non-magnetic hardware. Stainless or TI would be better than AL. Find me a non-magnetic and non-conductive screw and I'll pay big dollars for them.
Im intrigued by your comments and stainless and TI make sense.

I built a Dyno from an old brushless motor. I removed the stator and replaced it with a piece of aluminum conduit. It created a ton of resistance. In less than 20 seconds you couldnt touch the aluminum. Very cool stuff.Not sure why I wasted my time other than it took 5 minutes. im still considering wasting more time by just putting an aluminum disc on the output shaft of a brushless motor and varying the duty on an electromagnet.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 08:44 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Bar
Rev limit controlled by the ESC would solve nearly all the stock issues. The 2018/2019 European Touring Car Series(ETS) is running a brand new 17.5t class using a MuchMore ESC, I believe they have set the limit at 19,000rpm via special software and a fixed gear ratio, I don't think a controlled gear ratio is practical for club racing though.
i understand your point but if you want to equal the playing field its torque and rpm that need control. I assume you intended something like that. Dynamic constant horsepower hasnt been done in an ESC but I have done it in a servo powered engine test stand. I’d be willing to consult for anyone looking into building that into an ESC.
a rev limited motor can put out more HP by having more torque. If you limit the torque you have starting current and acceleration issues. The first step in the right direction is to have a true velocity control loop. It really should be there anyways. Its just code with a sensored motor.
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Old 10-27-2018 | 09:06 PM
  #30  
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Just curious because Im trying to connect things Ive experienced in servo development world with the information i read on boards about motor control in RC. Im sure there are differeing opinions, miscommunication, and good info but my intentions are good so please share what you know and dont expect a beating from me.

People speak (or type) of smooth motor or ESC combinations. im trying to understand smooth. Or in this case ROUGH.

is it low RPM bumpiness or cogging?
is it a hot spot or a dead spot where acceleration doesnt feel linear with the slope before or after the bump?
Is it the transition from 1 velocity to another with the trigger?

i ask because in my non-rc experience the problem can be in the hardware but can be minimized or resolved by 3 different methods on the same hardware. potentially eliminating the problem altogether.

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