It's the same way across different brands, pro setups where the front collapses and the front outside tire hooks in turns and lift the inside rear wheel, provoking rotation and then when it settles down you just punch it. The B4 is that way, the XXX, the B44, most 1/8th buggies...
Spring wise I haven't found a car that was close enough with the box setup, most of them are front biased. Pistons only now we see drivers using staggered piston hole diameter front to rear, most still swear about using same piston setup front and rear.

They knew the basics of where the roll center height should be and that long arms are better. They have to, the front uprights are a sign of that.


I'm happy with the balanced everything method, still have a B5R I want to test but it shouldn't be too different than the B4 I had. One question to Fred though, do you have to run less rear toe on your new setups? Both 1/8th buggies I ran last year I end up with 2º toe and sometimes I get away with less.

i haven't heard the interview but I don't think the folks of yesterday were that clueless, im sure some were, but its not brain surgery . At the time they were trend setters so yes they dealt with the "unknown" in rc , but it all scales out. We didnt suddenly got a generation of genius. Also tracks of yesterday were night and day compared to todays tracks. Thats probably the biggest change in suspension geometry and the biggest discrepancy in set ups. Pros running perfectly manicured tracks and average joe running nothing close to that. We're way off topic now.

I agree on the deviation from topic. Let's nip it in the bud and focus on how to make our own setups through tuning knowledge.

I have a feeling about all this too I believe it how you drive the car overall,and also which car as not every make is the same.
Run the yz2 on Astro and carpet don't get to test much.But kept trying setups that the pro s run and I can't run them all too safe for me.
So started from scratch now I can feel what the roll centres do height and length etc,what diff oils do, pack of the shock.

Woo.....just finished all 140 pages.

I applaud Freds willingness to go against standard setup doctrine and publicise his own methods and results.

The 1st 80 or so pages of this thread are full of good information and I have learned a lot from it.

Unfortunately toward the end some information has become confused and contradictory with some posters trying to bring conventional thinking back into the process.This has been corrected occasionally by Fred but still makes for a confusing read.

I'm thinking that it might be worthwhile to publish a bullet point list of the steps to follow to set up your vehicle using the Fred method.

Just my 2c

Hi all,

I do have a question, i have done the balance test and set up on my new wheeler and ended up with the hadest rear and the softest front springs from the set, to get the right spring balance.
Anyway, after that i balanced oil and pistons and it went well, but the car packs a bit to early, so my question is, should i lower oils, change pistons to bigger hole size, or can i just move the shocks to the inner hole on the arms, to get the pack a little bit later, without changing the other factors?

So here's, what i'm at the moment.

Rear end:
Shocks middle on tower and arm
3x1.6 mm pistons
35wt oil

Front end:
Shocks middle on tower and arm
3x1.5 mm pistons
30wt oil

May i have to drop oil anyways, as temps in europe are very low atm!?


Your help would be much appreciated.

Thx in advance and

When temps start to drop here in the fall in Minnesota I always drop 2.5-5 weight and verify that I am still balanced. Personally, I would start by dropping oil weight.

The last thing you want to do is touch your shock mounting locations. That will change your spring balance.

I have more or less understood what does what on the car and how to correct the issue through tuning but I'm still a little lost to what is the right setup.

So far I was always looking for the smoothest/slowest reaction speed/nervousness of the car thinking that it would help to keep it smooth and clean but I'm realizing that in fact it could give me the exact opposite of what I'm looking for...
What is the general consensus for this matter ?
Is it better to have a slow reacting car and basically yank the steering wheel from one end to the other ?
Or do most people prefer a super shark reacting car and then turn the steering wheel with very smooth and small inputs ?

Whatever is comfortable to you. Mind you that when I balance everything the cars are sensitive but don't get out of shape or become impredictable, quite the contrary actually.

My X-60 and my new worlds rc10 want smooth inputs, the balance is very good and they respond quickly, they both are very predictable and more forgiving to my poor driving. I actually turned my fastest laps the last time I was at the track with both cars.

Sorry wrong thread

Thanks. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be the one to organize things. Some things need to be updated. Since when this thread started we didn't have the variety of springs that we do now so shock location was more critical to finding balance. Today I just look for a certain geometry. When the suspension is fully compressed, draw an imaginary line from the inner hinge pin to the outer hinge pin. My goal is a shock that is perpendicular to this line at full compression as this is the point of max leverage over the arm. Some cars don't make this possible to do but I try to get as close as possible and then match the front and rear angles, using spring rates now to achieve a match. I also balance pack and oils as well. I'll no longer get into anymore detail here as I got sick of defending my technique against people that only know how to copy setup sheets that get posted online. Sheets that are constantly changing btw, and often times quite drastically. Even between drivers on the exact same track.

Fred, thanks for your contributions! As an engineer, your approach really resonates with me.

It's too bad I can't drive worth a flip! I have so little time to get to a track anymore, each time is like the first. I was far better as a kid when that's all I did all day. No practice doesn't lead to very consistent performance. I've had people tell me that since I'm not the local fast guy that my methods are therefore irrelevant. Those guys are out there all the time. Practice makes perfect. I'm not saying their setups suck but they didn't get to be the best by never being there. Even in real race cars anymore, the drivers aren't the ones setting up the cars. They just provide feedback. Their main skill is driving. That's what the pros are best at. I honestly don't care if anyone believes me or not though. There's more than one way to do things. This is mine.