65LikesTune With Camber Links
03-24-2012 | 02:24 AM
#871
Tech Initiate
iTrader: (5)
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 29
I really appreciate all the info, it took some doing but came up with what seemed like a balanced ride. I was kind of satisfied with my previous setup on my 2wd so I tried to stay with the same springs except I did have to go down in the front, which I had the stiffest already and figured I'd have to. I also did this on my 4wd that I've only driven a few times previous. Both are alot easier to drive now and alot more stable. One issue I had with a single jump as you entered a turn was especially frustrating because if I was leaned over and loaded into a turn when my front inside tire cleared first would just cause it to pitch and usually roll, now it takes that a hell of alot better.
One thing I did notice was my front inside tire now lifts up on exiting turns with power. My first thought was a stiffer front rollbar to pull the outside front tire up in the hopes of getting the inside front on the ground. But then got to thinking maybe a softer front to let the inside be more independent and drop the tire and a stiffer rear to try to push the outside rear and cause it to tilt more onto the inside front (if that makes sense) might be better. That's the issue on my 4wd atleast. My 2wd just seems to have lost alot of tight exit turning but think that's a driving issue because I regeared my CC setup alot and now has a ton of torque and speed and just putting too much power too quick and the front just doesn't have much to grab with. Anyone use expo on throttle?
One thing I did notice was my front inside tire now lifts up on exiting turns with power. My first thought was a stiffer front rollbar to pull the outside front tire up in the hopes of getting the inside front on the ground. But then got to thinking maybe a softer front to let the inside be more independent and drop the tire and a stiffer rear to try to push the outside rear and cause it to tilt more onto the inside front (if that makes sense) might be better. That's the issue on my 4wd atleast. My 2wd just seems to have lost alot of tight exit turning but think that's a driving issue because I regeared my CC setup alot and now has a ton of torque and speed and just putting too much power too quick and the front just doesn't have much to grab with. Anyone use expo on throttle?
03-27-2012 | 11:06 AM
#872
Yes it possible. I have my B4 set at about 21*. You shim the back two screws of the front bulkhead and then add spacers under the top plate where is mounts to the chassis by the servo. Not sure if I like it better or not yet. Will know more after the race tonight and can post some pictures and shim measurements how I did it.
03-27-2012 | 11:27 AM
#873
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,766
From: Houston
I really appreciate all the info, it took some doing but came up with what seemed like a balanced ride. I was kind of satisfied with my previous setup on my 2wd so I tried to stay with the same springs except I did have to go down in the front, which I had the stiffest already and figured I'd have to. I also did this on my 4wd that I've only driven a few times previous. Both are alot easier to drive now and alot more stable. One issue I had with a single jump as you entered a turn was especially frustrating because if I was leaned over and loaded into a turn when my front inside tire cleared first would just cause it to pitch and usually roll, now it takes that a hell of alot better.
One thing I did notice was my front inside tire now lifts up on exiting turns with power. My first thought was a stiffer front rollbar to pull the outside front tire up in the hopes of getting the inside front on the ground. But then got to thinking maybe a softer front to let the inside be more independent and drop the tire and a stiffer rear to try to push the outside rear and cause it to tilt more onto the inside front (if that makes sense) might be better. That's the issue on my 4wd atleast. My 2wd just seems to have lost alot of tight exit turning but think that's a driving issue because I regeared my CC setup alot and now has a ton of torque and speed and just putting too much power too quick and the front just doesn't have much to grab with. Anyone use expo on throttle?
One thing I did notice was my front inside tire now lifts up on exiting turns with power. My first thought was a stiffer front rollbar to pull the outside front tire up in the hopes of getting the inside front on the ground. But then got to thinking maybe a softer front to let the inside be more independent and drop the tire and a stiffer rear to try to push the outside rear and cause it to tilt more onto the inside front (if that makes sense) might be better. That's the issue on my 4wd atleast. My 2wd just seems to have lost alot of tight exit turning but think that's a driving issue because I regeared my CC setup alot and now has a ton of torque and speed and just putting too much power too quick and the front just doesn't have much to grab with. Anyone use expo on throttle?
It's really only going to happen on a high grip track so there are a few things you can do. On is to try a different tire compound in the rear or perhaps a different insert. It may sound weird to want a bit less rear traction but spinning the wheels a little bit on acceleration isn't necessarily bad but I generally avoid it with slipper adjustment. It may help the car rotate though. It's all scenario dependent. You don't want to just spin them senselessly though where you go nowhere. This may or may not help depending on your track.
Another thing to try is adjusting your diff. A looser diff will help your turn in but will be slower on corner exit. A tighter diff will be more difficult on turn in but better on corner exit. These are generalizations but the point is that diff adjustments can make a big difference at different spots in corners.
I personally run about 25% exponential on my throttle. The punch on my esc is set at level 7 (out of 10). I set my slipper so that it slips for about 2-3 feet at full throttle from a dead stop (10.5T motor). Others do things very differently than I do but that's generally how I run my cars. Diff settings vary with track and even track grip affects how tight the slipper is. I want it to slip a little regardless of surface. I don't need the front wheels coming off the ground.
03-27-2012 | 11:43 AM
#874
You certainly won't be alone. I have seen pictures of the 11 car testing at VIR with the inside front almost a foot off the ground, but I can't find any right now, so this will have to do.
03-27-2012 | 01:47 PM
#875
Yes it possible. I have my B4 set at about 21*. You shim the back two screws of the front bulkhead and then add spacers under the top plate where is mounts to the chassis by the servo. Not sure if I like it better or not yet. Will know more after the race tonight and can post some pictures and shim measurements how I did it.
Also, try to take a objective approach to what this change does.. Curious if it helps or hurts.. Tough to be objective since you're used to it another way..
03-27-2012 | 02:05 PM
#876
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,766
From: Houston
A good track will be one that tests every handling aspect of a car. It can be very difficult to do everything perfectly. The key is knowing where to make trade-offs. If lifting an inside wheel during cornering slows you down and you can't do anything about it through other tuning changes then by all means go back to what is quicker. If lifting that wheel bothers you but your lap times are faster than the older setup then it may not be that big of a deal. I've found that on my 2wd buggies that I may lift that inside tire during hard acceleration out of a corner on the street but not on certain dirt tracks. It all depends on the surface. The same may be true under corner braking for the inside rear tire.
03-27-2012 | 04:11 PM
#877
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,979
From: West of Crook County Illinois
Tamiya has several sedans 2wd/4wd that have "laydown" front shocks.
There are no ways to move the front shocks around to achieve "balance". There is a pivot post that connects one side of the shock to a turnbuckle to the front a-arm, does that become the tuning option to achieving balance and moving the turnbuckle in and out?
I do have a laydown FrontWD car with 65/35 weight distribution did get it down to 57/43 still searching for a better balance. The motor is in front of the drive axles. My 4wd sedans are 50/50. With the FrontWD is it logical to reverse a RearWD setup or is it totally different?
I read through the whole thread and agree that learning never ends, especially in this hobby.
There are no ways to move the front shocks around to achieve "balance". There is a pivot post that connects one side of the shock to a turnbuckle to the front a-arm, does that become the tuning option to achieving balance and moving the turnbuckle in and out?
I do have a laydown FrontWD car with 65/35 weight distribution did get it down to 57/43 still searching for a better balance. The motor is in front of the drive axles. My 4wd sedans are 50/50. With the FrontWD is it logical to reverse a RearWD setup or is it totally different?
I read through the whole thread and agree that learning never ends, especially in this hobby.
03-28-2012 | 05:26 AM
#878
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,766
From: Houston
The balance method corrects for any setup. It's all about getting the wheel rates balanced. If you have laydown shocks and limited options to move them then it's really going to come down to finding springs that match or to get springs that get close to matching and then moving some weight around until they do.
03-28-2012 | 10:44 AM
#879
B4 front kickup experiment
First here is how I reduced the amount of kick on the front of my Associated B4.
Where the front bulkhead mounts to the chassis I added a small plastic washer that is .055" thick on each of the rear screws. So when all four screws are tighten the bulkhead sits at an angle to the chassis.
http://www.boiserc.net/Gallery/displ...lbum=136&pos=3
In doing this a gap is left under the top plate where it mounts to the top of the chassis by the servo saver. The gap ended up being about .145". So I found three spacers that thickness.
http://www.boiserc.net/Gallery/displ...lbum=136&pos=0
If you notice the chassis mount is beveled and the bottom of the top place is keyed to match, so have to bevel the inside of the spacers to match. This done very each with a counter sink bit.
http://www.boiserc.net/Gallery/displ...lbum=136&pos=1
So the result. We currently race on an indoor dirt track that is about 75'x70'. It's not super high bite, but has good traction. My car is absolutely dialed. I'm an old guy that has been doing this since about 1985 and has never really been satisfied and continually “tinkers" with things to try to make my car better. I always try small changes like this. If they work, awesome, your car just got better, if not, change it back and go on. The results of this change was not nearly as noticeable as I thought it would be. The car had a little bit more turn in steering. I will leave it for another race or two but will probably go back to the stock kick up. We'll see.
The bottom line is I now have another tuning option to keep with me and the ability to make the change quickly if needed.
Where the front bulkhead mounts to the chassis I added a small plastic washer that is .055" thick on each of the rear screws. So when all four screws are tighten the bulkhead sits at an angle to the chassis.
http://www.boiserc.net/Gallery/displ...lbum=136&pos=3
In doing this a gap is left under the top plate where it mounts to the top of the chassis by the servo saver. The gap ended up being about .145". So I found three spacers that thickness.
http://www.boiserc.net/Gallery/displ...lbum=136&pos=0
If you notice the chassis mount is beveled and the bottom of the top place is keyed to match, so have to bevel the inside of the spacers to match. This done very each with a counter sink bit.
http://www.boiserc.net/Gallery/displ...lbum=136&pos=1
So the result. We currently race on an indoor dirt track that is about 75'x70'. It's not super high bite, but has good traction. My car is absolutely dialed. I'm an old guy that has been doing this since about 1985 and has never really been satisfied and continually “tinkers" with things to try to make my car better. I always try small changes like this. If they work, awesome, your car just got better, if not, change it back and go on. The results of this change was not nearly as noticeable as I thought it would be. The car had a little bit more turn in steering. I will leave it for another race or two but will probably go back to the stock kick up. We'll see.
The bottom line is I now have another tuning option to keep with me and the ability to make the change quickly if needed.
Last edited by JohnB; 03-28-2012 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Hmm, guess I don't know how to post pictures now. Better for do some reading and figure it out.
04-05-2012 | 07:01 PM
#880
Tech Initiate
iTrader: (5)
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44
Getting ready to set up my 1/8th scale e-buggy for a trophy race, and after reading this entire post over the last week I figured I'd give your process a try and see the results.
My question is, is it best to get spring match with the shocks in the middle of the mounting points. In other words should I put the upper shock mount in the middle hole and with only two holes in the lower arm put the shock end in the inner hole? I realize I may not get spring balance and need to adjust the mounting location, but is the middle of the road the best place to start and try to achieve spring balance there.
Trying to get a little better slow speed cornering and better ability to handle entering a corner a little to hot. Some of the second problem is the driver
not being confident on what the buggy's gonna do when over driven.
When I raced back in the late 80's early 90's and battery power was at a premium we (or should I say I) didn't over drive coming into a corner and put more of a load on the battery trying to keep the tires turning under extreme loads of g-force.
I see other drivers just pitch their buggies into the corner, power slide them through and haul a!# out of the corner. I just can't get myself to do that yet
.
My question is, is it best to get spring match with the shocks in the middle of the mounting points. In other words should I put the upper shock mount in the middle hole and with only two holes in the lower arm put the shock end in the inner hole? I realize I may not get spring balance and need to adjust the mounting location, but is the middle of the road the best place to start and try to achieve spring balance there.
Trying to get a little better slow speed cornering and better ability to handle entering a corner a little to hot. Some of the second problem is the driver
not being confident on what the buggy's gonna do when over driven.When I raced back in the late 80's early 90's and battery power was at a premium we (or should I say I) didn't over drive coming into a corner and put more of a load on the battery trying to keep the tires turning under extreme loads of g-force.
I see other drivers just pitch their buggies into the corner, power slide them through and haul a!# out of the corner. I just can't get myself to do that yet
.
04-07-2012 | 08:57 AM
#881
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,766
From: Houston
It's hard to tell you where to start. It doesn't really matter though. Pick a spot. Keep in mind that if all you do is get balance and you don't like the handling it's because you still didn't tune anything else. In the old days we tried to rely on tires and shocks to tune everything but that always led to compromise.
In the old days power was harder to come by. If you raced in stock class as I did, lifting that inside tire accelerating out of a corner wasn't an issue. It didn't happen.
Lots of drivers drive point and shoot which is go full speed into a corner, slam on the brakes, slide the rear around, and then punch it back out. I can't say you'd never want to do this as if you are trying to hold someone off from passing you this can become a defensive strategy. However if you aren't trying to hold anyone off, this just isn't the fastest way around a corner.
In the old days power was harder to come by. If you raced in stock class as I did, lifting that inside tire accelerating out of a corner wasn't an issue. It didn't happen.
Lots of drivers drive point and shoot which is go full speed into a corner, slam on the brakes, slide the rear around, and then punch it back out. I can't say you'd never want to do this as if you are trying to hold someone off from passing you this can become a defensive strategy. However if you aren't trying to hold anyone off, this just isn't the fastest way around a corner.
04-16-2012 | 02:09 PM
#882
Tech Regular
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 335
Hi Fred,
I'd like to receive some advises on the following points if possible:
- Rear Hub spacing (short or long wheelbase),
- Rear Antisquat.
I noticed that a long wheelbase on a TLR 22 gives car more entry corner compared to a short wheelbase.
Less rear antisquat should gives less slinding on the rear itself.
Thank you in advance for your support.
I'd like to receive some advises on the following points if possible:
- Rear Hub spacing (short or long wheelbase),
- Rear Antisquat.
I noticed that a long wheelbase on a TLR 22 gives car more entry corner compared to a short wheelbase.
Less rear antisquat should gives less slinding on the rear itself.
Thank you in advance for your support.
05-06-2012 | 07:58 PM
#883
Tech Rookie
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 10
Waaaaay back when the XX was new? Holy cow, that's not way back. I started racing a Tamiya Fox before I got an RC10. It was the new ground breaking fast car that came out a year earlier. The 80's were exciting times in rc. If I could go back to then and do it all over again, I'd give up everything we have in rc today and do it in a second. The car to have was the RC10 and nearly everyone had one although there were a few Ultimas here and there. You could have 30 RC10's there and they were all different. You'd have a graphite chassis and wide front arms on one car, a graphite chassis with a wide front end but narrow front arms, a red Hot Trick chassis that used the stock aluminum nose, the stock tubs cut up and drilled with any number of lightening holes. You'd have 3 or 4 different styles of trailing arm rear suspensions. You'd have cars with belt drive or even chain drive gearbox conversions. Some cars ran all 1.6" wheels. Others ran all 2" wheels. Some like myself ran the 1.6's in the back and 2's in front. I could go on an on. You'd see a dozen different name brand motors. No one had the same setup and no one ran anyone's else's setup. You figured things out on your own. There was no copying some team drivers setup. RC today is downright boring and I personally consider the direction that off road has gone today to be a bad joke played on the hobby. It doesn't encourage learning or experimenting. When you have someone that does, you get ignorant people that criticize them saying it's a waste of time because manufacturers and pros don't do it that way. That's WHY you do it!
I was one of the first people at the track here with a JRX2. The week I saw it I got one. Multilink rear suspension, a 20 degree front kick, and a short wheelbase. Unfortunately I bought it because it was the new big deal. I only won 1 race with it. It was a B main dirt oval race. The only dirt oval race I'd ever done. I didn't know what I was doing back then but on my limited lawn mowing budget I couldn't afford to do too much anyways. I still have a JRX today. 2 actually and enough spares to build at least another. Still got an RC10 too. I could probably build 2 of them. Until a year ago my NEW car was a XX! My current race car I'm playing with is a mid motor XXX. We run on hard, sometimes loose clay. I'd rather race on the old loamy soft rough dirt tracks of the old days. Our cars ran about 20 mph and it was more fun than anything today. I miss those days.
I was one of the first people at the track here with a JRX2. The week I saw it I got one. Multilink rear suspension, a 20 degree front kick, and a short wheelbase. Unfortunately I bought it because it was the new big deal. I only won 1 race with it. It was a B main dirt oval race. The only dirt oval race I'd ever done. I didn't know what I was doing back then but on my limited lawn mowing budget I couldn't afford to do too much anyways. I still have a JRX today. 2 actually and enough spares to build at least another. Still got an RC10 too. I could probably build 2 of them. Until a year ago my NEW car was a XX! My current race car I'm playing with is a mid motor XXX. We run on hard, sometimes loose clay. I'd rather race on the old loamy soft rough dirt tracks of the old days. Our cars ran about 20 mph and it was more fun than anything today. I miss those days.
Also, many thanks for this thread. One of the most enjoyable and informative I've read anywhere, on any r/c topic! I'm whipping my vehicles into shape like I never knew possible without *extensive* trial-and-error.
05-07-2012 | 07:24 AM
#884
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,766
From: Houston
Hi Fred,
I'd like to receive some advises on the following points if possible:
- Rear Hub spacing (short or long wheelbase),
- Rear Antisquat.
I noticed that a long wheelbase on a TLR 22 gives car more entry corner compared to a short wheelbase.
Less rear antisquat should gives less slinding on the rear itself.
Thank you in advance for your support.
I'd like to receive some advises on the following points if possible:
- Rear Hub spacing (short or long wheelbase),
- Rear Antisquat.
I noticed that a long wheelbase on a TLR 22 gives car more entry corner compared to a short wheelbase.
Less rear antisquat should gives less slinding on the rear itself.
Thank you in advance for your support.
05-07-2012 | 07:31 AM
#885
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,766
From: Houston
I started with a Hornet and graduated to the trailing arm JRX2 ... and I go off on this same tangent often at the track, basically paraphrasing what you said here until the guy/gal I'm speaking to rolls their eyes and walks off. Hard to miss what you never had in the first place.