1Likesfaskolor and water based paints
12-16-2009, 04:15 PM
#1
faskolor and water based paints
ok, so i was hoping to get this stickyed at the top. it seems as tho this issue comes up more than twice a week and im hopeing that with the help of this thread we can make it easyer for our fellow artists to spray faskolor and createx's Auto Air.
before we start id like to clear the air about the diffrences between faskolor and createx. as far as i can gather with out calling the manufactures they are the same exact thing and you can expect the same results between the two.
so i'll throw in my two cents, even tho i dont use it any more it is still the most widely used paint around the r/c parts and hobby painters and probally the most problematic.
the biggest issue i see and have delt with water based paints is the issue of thinning it. You can spray it straight out of the bottle, but only if your nozzle is huge! and your having a good day!
so what do we thin it with and how much do you thin it? thats the question on everyones mind. well from my experiance there are 4 diffrent ways and im hoping people will chime in on there success and what they wear shooting.
First~createx reducer extender, this is poured in straight no mixing neccesary.
http://www.amazon.com/Autoair-4oz-Tr...008013&sr=1-16
Second- fantastickhouse hold cleaner in a 1/1 mix with water, then reduce with this mixture
http://www.fantastik.com/clean-shine/
~i believe the clean shine formula is the one you are looking for but you can experiment with diffrent types... how ever this will be more expensive than just buying the extender
third-is windex (do i need to provide a link) do the same thing mix 50/50 and reduce with that mix. many people have had success when spraying windex and 50/50 mix seems to be the average
NOTE: for both the cleaners mix, i encourage you to play with the ratio of water to cleaner to paint this will give you experiance and will let you know what works for YOU!
fourth-is isopropyl alchohal. i havnt tried this but a few times. some say it will gum it up others will swear buy it id start out with a 3/7 mix 3 parts alchohal 7 parts water go less go more and see if any of it works
5th one is straight water, used as a reducer. this is what worked for me for years how ever i could never get it to spray i nice fine pattern no matter how hard i tried. when doing small lines 1/4 inch or less they came out like chicken pox spots. thats why i moved to windex/fantastic and then createx reducer. all in that order
and in that time i noticed a few things.
hot water will clean out an airbrush really well if you just run it under the tap. i had an old sink and it worked great!
paint reduced with windex will make my eyes burn! (ammonia) and will also cause large areas of the paint being sprayed will pull together and start creating open spots.... the fix for this was reducing the amount of windex i used and more water. spraying thicker b/c i wasnt interested in blending
the createx reducer/thinner, was the best out of the batch. the old stuff had a white tint to it that i had but i think the newer stuff is actually totally transparent. just not if you have one with a milky tint to it done worry about it with opaque colors but transparent ones you will need to whatch out for!
soo we know what these diffrent chemicals do.... well sorta
soo while we are experimenting with these diffrent chemicals and reductions theres a second wrench tossed into this gear box. How much do we reduce our paints!?
gooood question! answered right after the next commercial..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
just kiding!
first thing i want to bring up about thinning is "how much is too much"
well IMHO its impossible to have too much thinning! i say this to make a point b/c it is actually possible. i just want people to relize that many professional artists when they build colors in detailed work will thin the paint to the point you can barley see the PASSES that are building up. thats right suprised reader!! you dont have to lay it all down in one swipe!
building up layers will give you more control of the color you are putting down and inturn wll give you a better blend. plus make it easyer to spray finer lines if your paint is very thin!
this doenst really apply if you are laying down a solid plane of color wear there are no blends. in this case its regualr paint work start out light to seal in the edges then get heavy and dont let the paint run!
ok so now that you understand the mistake of "all in one pass" you know that its gonna be hard to reduce too much. just have patience!!
the phisical break down of how much reducer to mix with the paint.. well its like picking your airpressure.
- if your spraying alot of color and need a heavy load by all means reduce to the point it will spray comfortably and then stop there.
-if you need fine details reduce abouyt 1 part paint 4 parts reducer
for drop shadows building color maybe do 1-2 and start there and probally work your way up
-if your spraying fine details and your getting little catterpillars reduce airpressure or just stop pulling back the trigger so far. build up those passed and maybe put in more paint but there will be an increased chance of tip dry
-if you have tip dry createx makes this product its called a retarder but trust me its not retarded! if you are spraying and getting the build up of paint around your tip try this
http://kustomaccessories.com/Createx...B001E4UKDI.htm
just make a note this will reduce your dry time so as you build your layers it might take longer to dry so follow directions and tune as needed
so thats about it i just have one more thing to add about the water drop technique
if you are trying to make water drops with water based paint think again...it wont work.. the water disolves into the water based paint and ruins the effect. craigfraser once mentioned if you use glycerin in a small amount in the water you may be able to get a hold around the bead of water with the paint. other wise just use an enamel laquer or urethane.. just something that doesnt disolve in water
well good, luck god speed and enjoy your new found knowlege of the waterbased paints.
me i've long since grown out of them and moved on to urethanes (automotive paint).. more options more fun and a better smell! jsut too bad the smell is toxic and you need very good ventalation
and as always remember to experiment! play with it and foool around you may find something that works!
if you do! you may be able to paint this! credit goes to blake muccully of cross-eyed he has videos on airbrush action and the autoairwebsite on how to paint the stuff you may want to check it out!
hope you enjoyed the post!
happy painting ~Ben
before we start id like to clear the air about the diffrences between faskolor and createx. as far as i can gather with out calling the manufactures they are the same exact thing and you can expect the same results between the two.
so i'll throw in my two cents, even tho i dont use it any more it is still the most widely used paint around the r/c parts and hobby painters and probally the most problematic.
the biggest issue i see and have delt with water based paints is the issue of thinning it. You can spray it straight out of the bottle, but only if your nozzle is huge! and your having a good day!
so what do we thin it with and how much do you thin it? thats the question on everyones mind. well from my experiance there are 4 diffrent ways and im hoping people will chime in on there success and what they wear shooting.
First~createx reducer extender, this is poured in straight no mixing neccesary.
http://www.amazon.com/Autoair-4oz-Tr...008013&sr=1-16
Second- fantastickhouse hold cleaner in a 1/1 mix with water, then reduce with this mixture
http://www.fantastik.com/clean-shine/
~i believe the clean shine formula is the one you are looking for but you can experiment with diffrent types... how ever this will be more expensive than just buying the extender
third-is windex (do i need to provide a link
) do the same thing mix 50/50 and reduce with that mix. many people have had success when spraying windex and 50/50 mix seems to be the averageNOTE: for both the cleaners mix, i encourage you to play with the ratio of water to cleaner to paint this will give you experiance and will let you know what works for YOU!
fourth-is isopropyl alchohal. i havnt tried this but a few times. some say it will gum it up others will swear buy it id start out with a 3/7 mix 3 parts alchohal 7 parts water go less go more and see if any of it works
5th one is straight water, used as a reducer. this is what worked for me for years how ever i could never get it to spray i nice fine pattern no matter how hard i tried. when doing small lines 1/4 inch or less they came out like chicken pox spots. thats why i moved to windex/fantastic and then createx reducer. all in that order
and in that time i noticed a few things.
hot water will clean out an airbrush really well if you just run it under the tap. i had an old sink and it worked great!
paint reduced with windex will make my eyes burn! (ammonia) and will also cause large areas of the paint being sprayed will pull together and start creating open spots.... the fix for this was reducing the amount of windex i used and more water. spraying thicker b/c i wasnt interested in blending
the createx reducer/thinner, was the best out of the batch. the old stuff had a white tint to it that i had but i think the newer stuff is actually totally transparent. just not if you have one with a milky tint to it done worry about it with opaque colors but transparent ones you will need to whatch out for!
soo we know what these diffrent chemicals do.... well sorta
soo while we are experimenting with these diffrent chemicals and reductions theres a second wrench tossed into this gear box. How much do we reduce our paints!?
gooood question! answered right after the next commercial..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
just kiding!
first thing i want to bring up about thinning is "how much is too much"
well IMHO its impossible to have too much thinning! i say this to make a point b/c it is actually possible. i just want people to relize that many professional artists when they build colors in detailed work will thin the paint to the point you can barley see the PASSES that are building up. thats right suprised reader!! you dont have to lay it all down in one swipe!
building up layers will give you more control of the color you are putting down and inturn wll give you a better blend. plus make it easyer to spray finer lines if your paint is very thin!
this doenst really apply if you are laying down a solid plane of color wear there are no blends. in this case its regualr paint work start out light to seal in the edges then get heavy and dont let the paint run!
ok so now that you understand the mistake of "all in one pass" you know that its gonna be hard to reduce too much. just have patience!!
the phisical break down of how much reducer to mix with the paint.. well its like picking your airpressure.
- if your spraying alot of color and need a heavy load by all means reduce to the point it will spray comfortably and then stop there.
-if you need fine details reduce abouyt 1 part paint 4 parts reducer
for drop shadows building color maybe do 1-2 and start there and probally work your way up
-if your spraying fine details and your getting little catterpillars reduce airpressure or just stop pulling back the trigger so far. build up those passed and maybe put in more paint but there will be an increased chance of tip dry
-if you have tip dry createx makes this product its called a retarder but trust me its not retarded! if you are spraying and getting the build up of paint around your tip try this
http://kustomaccessories.com/Createx...B001E4UKDI.htm
just make a note this will reduce your dry time so as you build your layers it might take longer to dry so follow directions and tune as needed
so thats about it i just have one more thing to add about the water drop technique
if you are trying to make water drops with water based paint think again...it wont work.. the water disolves into the water based paint and ruins the effect. craigfraser once mentioned if you use glycerin in a small amount in the water you may be able to get a hold around the bead of water with the paint. other wise just use an enamel laquer or urethane.. just something that doesnt disolve in water
well good, luck god speed and enjoy your new found knowlege of the waterbased paints.
me i've long since grown out of them and moved on to urethanes (automotive paint).. more options more fun and a better smell! jsut too bad the smell is toxic and you need very good ventalation
and as always remember to experiment! play with it and foool around you may find something that works!
if you do! you may be able to paint this! credit goes to blake muccully of cross-eyed he has videos on airbrush action and the autoairwebsite on how to paint the stuff you may want to check it out!
hope you enjoyed the post!
happy painting ~Ben
12-16-2009, 04:27 PM
#3
ok needed to edit but it wouldnt let me
first id like to add a link to cfx and NeoNots FANTASTICK! experiment!!!
http://cfxpaintworks.com/modules.php...c&mode=&t=2501
read this!!! and you may not have to experiment that much! b/c he already did and documented it all!
and second thing is notice he used the heavy duty cleaner, not the clean and shine
disregard the clean and shine my bad
first id like to add a link to cfx and NeoNots FANTASTICK! experiment!!!
http://cfxpaintworks.com/modules.php...c&mode=&t=2501
read this!!! and you may not have to experiment that much! b/c he already did and documented it all!
and second thing is notice he used the heavy duty cleaner, not the clean and shine
disregard the clean and shine my bad
12-16-2009, 04:35 PM
#4
I just answered this very question today 
Now as far as reducing with Windex or Fantastik I use it straight from the bottle with no additional water added to either solution.
I have not had the chance to try the AutoAir 4011 reducer but I have used the Parma paint reducer, which I have been told from a very reliable source that it is the AutoAir 4011 simply repackaged!
If you buy the small quantity Parma reducer then the home brew stuff is going to be far cheaper to use. I am not sure what size the 4011 comes in or its price so I cant speak on that but I still find it hard to believe that the 4011 would be any cheaper than the Windex or Fantastik.
As far as shooting the Parma reducer I did feel the paint flowed slightly better than any of the home brew stuff I have tried. I however didnt think there was a big enough improvement with the Parma reducer to the home brew to offset the cost that I would have incurred when trying to reduce as much paint as I can with the windex or fantastik.
Now as far as reducing with Windex or Fantastik I use it straight from the bottle with no additional water added to either solution.
I have not had the chance to try the AutoAir 4011 reducer but I have used the Parma paint reducer, which I have been told from a very reliable source that it is the AutoAir 4011 simply repackaged!
If you buy the small quantity Parma reducer then the home brew stuff is going to be far cheaper to use. I am not sure what size the 4011 comes in or its price so I cant speak on that but I still find it hard to believe that the 4011 would be any cheaper than the Windex or Fantastik.
As far as shooting the Parma reducer I did feel the paint flowed slightly better than any of the home brew stuff I have tried. I however didnt think there was a big enough improvement with the Parma reducer to the home brew to offset the cost that I would have incurred when trying to reduce as much paint as I can with the windex or fantastik.
12-16-2009, 04:39 PM
#5
i really wish you would have done a test with striaght water and the 4011 reducer mixxed into the results
i think i bought a 40-20 oz bottle for about 20 bucks of the createx brand reducer that worked pretty well for me.
the fantastik would be expensive if you played around with the diffrent types they sell thats all i ment by that.
i think i bought a 40-20 oz bottle for about 20 bucks of the createx brand reducer that worked pretty well for me.
the fantastik would be expensive if you played around with the diffrent types they sell thats all i ment by that.
12-16-2009, 05:40 PM
#6
Auto-Air 4011 and 4010 are the only Reducers I use. Save your time and money and buy the stuff that is meant to reduce paint.
12-17-2009, 01:44 AM
#8
i really wish you would have done a test with striaght water and the 4011 reducer mixxed into the results
i think i bought a 40-20 oz bottle for about 20 bucks of the createx brand reducer that worked pretty well for me.
the fantastik would be expensive if you played around with the diffrent types they sell thats all i ment by that.
i think i bought a 40-20 oz bottle for about 20 bucks of the createx brand reducer that worked pretty well for me.
the fantastik would be expensive if you played around with the diffrent types they sell thats all i ment by that.
The only thing I dont have is the 4011 or 4010 reducer. I do however have the Parma reducer.
I can also add another element into the test this time around as well, shaking paint vs stirring paint.
I got bored one day while painting/cleaning my work area and tore out a motor from one of my old bump boxes that had one bad motor in it. I attached it to a basket and suspended the basket from some fuel line. I then attached a couple of 5/8 inch nuts to the shaft of the motor. I used an old computer power supply to power the thing. It isnt very pretty but it does the job quite well.
Here is a video with 5volts going to the motor.
Here is a 12volt video
By the way photobucket is making the video much louder than it is in person, for some reason.
As of recent I cant say that I have used to much reducer in any paint. I have found that after shaking the paint in this contraption for about a minute that it sprays as well as most of my previously reduced paints!!! I have even got in the habbit of just throwing in the various colors I will be using on the paint job and just letting the shaker run while I paint so I can simply grab each color as I need it and spray away.
At the time I did the experiment I wasnt painting for more than my locals which gave me a body or two a month to do so I wanted something that was cheap and easy to obtain. I think this is the boat most people will be in when they ask what to thin with.
Last edited by NeoNot; 12-17-2009 at 02:02 AM.
12-17-2009, 06:39 AM
#9
Neo that would be great to do a round 2 of testing . You have answered all my questions in a very detailed manner. I do have a bottle of aa flash reducer but windex is cheaper and although i am new and do love it you are correct i only get a few shells to pratice with and just do it for myself. I never really want to be a pro for say just good enough to have my own work at the track. Another question kinda off subject do you strain your paints? If so with what? thanks for taking the time to help the less talented lol.
12-17-2009, 10:58 AM
#10
Neo that would be great to do a round 2 of testing . You have answered all my questions in a very detailed manner. I do have a bottle of aa flash reducer but windex is cheaper and although i am new and do love it you are correct i only get a few shells to pratice with and just do it for myself. I never really want to be a pro for say just good enough to have my own work at the track. Another question kinda off subject do you strain your paints? If so with what? thanks for taking the time to help the less talented lol.
I dont strain the paint unless I am having issues shooting it.
If I do strain the paints I just steal a pair of the wifey's panty hose and cut a couple of circles out of them just a little larger than a quarter. I then put these circles of panty hoses between the cap and the bottle.
This helps remove the largest paint chunks and makes spraying paint farless painful.
12-17-2009, 05:12 PM
#11
OK guys and gals, as the case maybe.
I have rounded up my scale and calibrated it.
Here are the items I will be testing as thinners this time around.
1) Tap water
2) Isopropoly Alcohol 75%
3) Isopropoly Alcohol 92%
4) 50/50 mixture of 75% Alcohol and tap water
5) 50/50 mixture of 92% Alcohol and tap water
6) Fantastik (The general purpose formula)
7) Windex (I will try to locate some of the clear to test with the blue original formula)
8) Parma FasThinner
As before I will use a brand new bottle of Parma FasRed.
This time around however I will shake the bottle in my paint shaker for a minute and then spray it through my HP-CR to get a baseline comparison, noting the pressure the paint is sprayed at as well as how fine I can get the paint to spray, without issues.
I will also try to keep track of curing time for the various reducers to see if there are any major differences between the reducers.
If there is anything else you would like to see included in the test please let me know. I will most likely start on this little project later tonight so I can get some paint mixed up, pictures taken and let the settling process begin.
As before I will use a Mettler PE3600 lab balance to make sure equal amounts of paint and reducer are added into each glass bottle. In the previous test I believe I went with a 60/40 ratio. Do we want to stay with this ratio or do you want to see something different?
Give me some input with your thoughts and concerns and I will see what I can to get his thing rolling.
I have rounded up my scale and calibrated it.
Here are the items I will be testing as thinners this time around.
1) Tap water
2) Isopropoly Alcohol 75%
3) Isopropoly Alcohol 92%
4) 50/50 mixture of 75% Alcohol and tap water
5) 50/50 mixture of 92% Alcohol and tap water
6) Fantastik (The general purpose formula)
7) Windex (I will try to locate some of the clear to test with the blue original formula)
8) Parma FasThinner
As before I will use a brand new bottle of Parma FasRed.
This time around however I will shake the bottle in my paint shaker for a minute and then spray it through my HP-CR to get a baseline comparison, noting the pressure the paint is sprayed at as well as how fine I can get the paint to spray, without issues.
I will also try to keep track of curing time for the various reducers to see if there are any major differences between the reducers.
If there is anything else you would like to see included in the test please let me know. I will most likely start on this little project later tonight so I can get some paint mixed up, pictures taken and let the settling process begin.
As before I will use a Mettler PE3600 lab balance to make sure equal amounts of paint and reducer are added into each glass bottle. In the previous test I believe I went with a 60/40 ratio. Do we want to stay with this ratio or do you want to see something different?
Give me some input with your thoughts and concerns and I will see what I can to get his thing rolling.
12-17-2009, 05:40 PM
#12
id use distilled water as your base sample
also instead of red, use white this is by far the hardest color to spray and doing the test with it will tell you how well the reducer breaks down the grain and pigments
also instead of red, use white this is by far the hardest color to spray and doing the test with it will tell you how well the reducer breaks down the grain and pigments
12-17-2009, 08:57 PM
#13
Maybe its just me but FasRed has always been the thorn in my side! I have never had an issue spraying FasWhite. I however have a new bottle of that sitting here as well so I can do either one.
Another neat reason to use white would be to see how the colored thinners, such as windex and fantastik, effect the overall color. When compared side by side to clear thinners.
White it is
I went to start the project a little earlier and found that I only have three mixing jars that were clean
So I am presently cleaning out some more jars to house everything. Doesnt look like I will get to start the project until sometime tomorrow.
12-18-2009, 03:42 PM
#14
And it begins.
To follow the experiment click below.
http://cfxpaintworks.com/modules.php...e04d79df#31315
To follow the experiment click below.
http://cfxpaintworks.com/modules.php...e04d79df#31315
12-18-2009, 03:55 PM
#15
I see a lady bug in the picture.