Crankshaft Balance
 

How do you balance the crankshaft? And how do one knows that it is balanced?

Re: Crankshaft Balance
 

I suggest to use 52-58 % balancing-so far it was the best ### for me ( we tryed form way underbalanced to way overbalanced)

what does that mean?

You take 52-58 % of weight of P/C assembly and ballance crancshaft with that weight-it should stay in the middle-horisontal position ( cranckpin).
Edward

I don't fully understand it. Can you explain it in details and make an example? And how do you actually balance it ie: do you put on flat table and see whether the crank pin stays at upright position or is there any other better method?

What Edward measn by 52 - 58% balance is as follows.

If the Piston/Conrod and pin weigh say 100g then the ideal weight for the crankshaft is between 52 and 58g.

To get that ideal weight you either remove or add material to the rear section of the crankshaft (the counter-weight). To balance the crank properly the crank should always stay perfectly still when the pin is sitting at Top Dead Center postion. To get this you need a special jig made up that holds the crank at both ends on its center line (similar to a propellor or wheel balancing tool).

if you have to add weight you need to select a heavy material like brass and insert it into the weight (like drilling a hole and squeezing a piece of brass bar into the hole). The process is not easy and I would suggest experimenting with old engines.

It will take time to learn where to take the material off/add material too any given crankshaft to get the ideal weight while achieving the desired balance without weakening the crank at any point.

Thanks for the info.

Edward: I thought I understood crank balancing. I have had it done and done it on gas engines also balancing the flywheel and throwing that weight into the equation too. Why is the piston sleeve weight added into the equation??? Theres no motion there.

Bob

Hi there, I think the Sleeve was not meant to be part of the equation!

Just the Piston and Conrod:sweat:

We shall call it Super balancing , right Edward..... :D

Hey dameetz, whats uppp

Don't worry about trying the balancing. Next time I make one for you and you will see what we meant.:D :D

Bottom end torque ....amazing

Just make sure your car can handle it :smile:

Why would sleeve weight be apart of the balancing?

Ok, here is my answer. I am not going to go if there is perfect ballance for single cylinder 2 strok engines-it is been talking about it for years, so no need to BS about it.
My procedure is-
I am weihging P/conrod assembly and then calculate what is 52-58% of it weight is ( for example 100 gr is total weight and I take 52-58 gramms). Then I am taking piece of weight with center hole the same as cranck pin and make it by the eight of 52-58 gr. Next step is-I took on of the old crancases and cut off almost everything out of it, just left motor mounts and and front of crancase where the bearings are mounted-so I have easy access to cranckshaft. I put new bearings and wash them with alchogol. No lubricant is use there-just dry bearings. Then I install cranckshaft and make sure it is turning absolutly free. Next step is put prepared earlier weight on pin and see which position is cranck pin located ( swing cranck little bit left and right). Then according position I alter the weight arround the web-sometimes it is on conter weight, some times on the pin area-needs to be looked.
Everybody can choose their own way to do it, I just answer the question. I will not discuse 52-58 % numbers, I just share my expirience. It is slightly overbalanced and this is what I want to achive.
I don't use blades-first of all you have to level them in 2 dementions and watch they sta leveled. Second reason is-blades are too short and ones you move cranck on them-it will always have tendency fall down-tired of it. It is worth it to cut one case and use it as balancing tool. To use that case, just install it in table vase firmly on one of motor mounts. Don't use any lubricants, keep bearings dry during the balancing. For storage use oil to proteck from rust.
Edward

Re: happy girl
 

Everybody has there own way of doing things and all I can say is that TG's seems to work very well. The extra power advantage he has given us whether running his own engine or his P/S sets etc in other brand engines is awesome. A couple of my colleagues are really hard to please when it comes to engines and after trying TG's stuff they are hooked and wont look at anything else.

Re: oooo nooooo
 

:D

On the contrary, the more people have a pop at him the more power he goes and produces from his products. Please keep it up :D

Nobody hurt my feelings; I really don’t care if somebody pop on me, I pass this period of my life.
I don’t add weight of sleeve, just piston, wrist pin, conrod and G-clips. If I wrote by mistake piston/sleeve assembly, it is pretty clear that it was mistake and I really feel sorry to make this mistake.
Hellion you can use ice scating blades or 2 swords, whatever it will come to your mind. I do my way, you do your way, somebody else does his own way. I can dsicuse with you about motors only after I will see that you are realy quialify to do so, so far I didn't seen it and it is waist of my time. You are good on vibrators-it is fact, the rest is really questionable.:D :D :D

Hey!
 

hey~hey~hey~Remember there is also a moderator in this forum,right? I spend some money/each month for you to discuss engine or exchange information. It is not for you to argue,right? I think our arena is at the tracks not on the internet. And our weapon is engine not mouth. Correct me if I'm wrong. :D

I don't mind you selling your products here even though I'm also a manufacturer. Because I knew I can't real stop it. All we want is just to earn some money to provide for family. It is the same to everyone. And this website owner also need some money to keep this website alive. So I would suggest you to contribute some money to the website owner if you purpose to sell something here.

whatever...see some old men to argue each other like children is one kind of pastime to me...:ha: :D
(So in fact I don't want to see you stop it...:D...hush... )

Sorry guys to bring the sleeve up, I kinda figured it was a misprint Edward. But Palmaris Europe said it and you said it so... I brought it up.

Danny what's up? Why the hell you riding Edwards ASS!! I respect both you guys work and think your both great for the hobby. So why cut at each other??

I've been using some of Edwards work the past year and man his stuff is second to none!! It's the best material and craftmanship out there. He damn sure knows what he speaks about and from what I read, he's only trying to steer you in the right direction so your time is'nt waisted in the wrong area.

Come on guys, can we all not just get along???????????????????????

:nod: :nod: Bob

I agree. We should just all get along and spread the knowledge we all possess to help those newcomers that really need it.

Re: Hey!
 

:D Argue????? Not us. :D You want to come to my house to see what arguing is :lol: I have to keep all my model stuff under lock and key or it would end up in the skip:cry:
This is just friendly take the p*** to pass the winter months away. Roll on racing season :tire:

Who makes his own line of engines and who doesnt? Just what I thought.

Enough said...

Re: to funny
 

Memories are very short around here. Maybe this thread will enlighten people.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthre...0&pagenumber=2

Remember??? Its nice to see you are happy to dish the dirt with no problems but you werent so happy to take it once upon a time.

Re: Re: to funny
 

PRODUCTS speak louder.

Lets see 6 months from now who have what?

Oppss, sorry we have a head start. :D :D

Time to enjoy racing ON the track again.

Re: You bet
 

Yes, exactly. I did ask for your help and you were willing to help. That is why I am trying to stay neutral here. I only pointed out that thread because I cant fully understand why you are attacking Ed after he offered you his help and advice regarding engine design. At that time everyone was attacking you about your theory over aerodynamics and you actually decided to leave the forum. The point I was making is that you didnt like what people were doing to you yet you still now persist in doing the same thing to Ed. Everyone here knows Ed is highly talented and has well over 30yrs experience with model engines of all nature. Just because his ways are different to conventional nova based platform, etc doesnt mean they are wrong or that he hasnt a clue what he is doing. I think the best thing to do is try one of his BRB P/S sets and then make your assessment whether or not he doesnt know anything.
I have yet to see any other company produce a standard 3P P/S set with no flutes or fancy work done to them that can produce more power than the 5P P/S set they replaced with the said work done on them.

where did ed finish in the winternats?

I am not racing the cars-I don't know how to drive RC car.
My son finish In E-main and he was leader for 22 minuts untill car broke.
But my engines was using by othe guys and they have better result.
BTW, check results last year Winternats-which stuff has real debute "bomb".

Hey Ed. No matter what anybody says, you are a major asset to this hobby and especially to this forum. Thanks!

Palmaris products powered the TQ car at last years winternats on the debut race.

Guys... let it go... :nod:

Hellion, you were jumping on Mugen guys about 8 month ago or something, you very b..ing about Robbie Collins and how bad he is. Now you try to jump on me, well, I really don't care if you exist,
If you want to prove something, that "bring it on". Get all you boddies together, manufacture something and "BRING IT ON". ON TRACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's say, next year Winternats ( I guess it is enough time to build engine) or may be this year Texas Biggi or Airtronics Race, O'Donnell Cup, RD Logic Cup, Paris Memorial Race.
You name where you are going to bring your engine and I will make sure one of my work will be there ( it won't be very hard for me-they are already around the world-everywhere).
Edward

OK

I have read the other thread from start to finish from an onlooker prospective and personally I cant see what Ed did that P'd you off so much. People will say I am biased because I am the European Agent but there are threads throughout this forum that clearly show me disagreeing with Ed or any of my other colleagues if I believe they are wrong about something.

From what I read Ed was only offering to help and give you vital information so you can bypass the pitfalls he had to overcome during his vast amount of years working with R/C engines.

The funny bit I see is that you say Ed doesnt know what he is talking about. I find that strange considering at least 75% of the Top 30 guys in the world (including other very well know engine manufactures) have all took a special interest in his products and have had long deep discussions with him regarding what he is doing.

I guess they dont know anything about R/C engines either.

I guess we have to leave this thing alone. I guess everybody got their point. I did get proved my points already many times, now it is Hellion's turn-I am sure a lot of guys wants to see it.
End of story untill "track time"!!!!!

I'm still a bit confused. The piston/conrod weigh less than the crankshaft, so how exactly is the 52-58% of p/c weight , the ideal weight of the crankshaft???

It should not be the ideal weight of the whole crankshaft ( but I do like light crankshaft) it is the counter weight and any weight below the crankpin that's matter in this discussion.

As we mentioned, if the Piston/ conrod / crankpin and e clips ( need to be careful, I need to be specific about the parts :lol: :lol: )
all weight 10g, then take 5.2g of any material (52%) and put on the crankpin and then see where the crankpin position/ balanced at.
It is overbalance if the pin with the weight not at the BDC and that's our experience.

However, a lot of Mod Nova based engine ( .12 only) are underbalance like JP and Max, so that's what it is.

good luck

Kit Racer,

Thanks for the clear and concise response! One last question...What is the performance effect of an underbalanced vs. an overbalanced crank? If any?

Thanks.

OK guys both of you keep up the good work! Let's see you guys get it on at the track!!!

Danny: Do we have any spare bodies?? I'ts getting warmer here and racing about to start, I need a few!! I still have your tires bro!! I'll try to get them out to ya soon.
Dannys bodies work very well !! Some people don't like the looks but hell! what ever works!!! We set fastest time on local track with his bodies and all I did was change bodies, corner speed and down force was unreal!!! Bob

Interesting reading. First let me say that I have no connection with Top gun or Hellion other than I tried a early Top gun PS with fairly good results.
I am in the high perf engine business and I have balanced hundreds of automotive engines so this thread caught my eye. I read Top guns explanation of how he does his balancing and although it is a little hard to follow... because English is not his native langauge... I did find his method to be sound. While using a bob weight (as he suggests) works best with a spin balancer it will also work with his static balance method... many people still balance Harley's this way. I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.
That said.... I don't recommend the average guy trying to balance his .12 motor just from reading a couple of paragraphs on a forum either. A much more detailed explanation with pictures would help people understand Top Guns method better.

i'll be at the next winter nats and welcome all comers to run down my car i like the max motors with the squeezed sleave and all the port work you can stand fort myers is my home track and i think you will all be fighting for gas milage and horsepower to make up for all the traction it has

It is realy time to go.
It was realy good intertaning for couple of days.
The result of this intertaimnet is-the Hellion promise to bring Froged cranckcase and beat casted. Well, I am sure he will do it, otherwise what about credobility?
Hanging on Internet and reading articles about new technologies ( ie. new platings, new parts making ways etc) is very easy thing to do. Bring to life something what you read about sort of different thing. If you never make any parts for RC engines yourself and just keep carving existing models-everything looks realy easy and by "1-2-3" will be done. But in real life it is not happening. Just to make point solid-make one prototype and show to everybody, then when everybody sees it, they will make judjement. So far Hellion, nothing real in engine's stuff you have offer. I do remember clear, a year ago or so, you were bitching that Mugen sent you shaft without turbo scoop. If you are realy know what to do, it is so easy to cut scoop-it is about 1/2 hour work, but that sample does show to me, it is issue for you to make scoop, why would I talk any of your words about engines.
I am ready to discuse ( and do with a lot of moddifiers) about engines and I am sharring my knowolodge and ready to support any experiments and/or production by providing some techology or even ready parts and I do it. When you, Hellion, sad you want to try to make engine, I offered to you help, but as a feedback I got "intertaiment". It sound fishy for me. It sound that you have tried to show people that you are really good in engines as in boddies designs ( ???-heven't seen one yet), and nothing really came out of you yet. So, what I will suggest-bring something that will realy put all of us, who use casting methods to make case, down. I know it will be realy hard to beat all engine's manufacturers ( everybody use casting, even forging actualy cheaper and required less machine work), but I am sure you can do it. You can do it and you know why , because you are smart and the rest of the world are idiots, but untill you bring something in metall, I am not sure if everybody agree with me , that you are smarter then Novarossi, Sirio, STS, OS........ and me.
So, finaly, bring it on, showed to people and then get respect.
I was incuraged to do so ( it was a year and half ago when I claim that Motorman ideas can be improved) and I did it and did got respect and very proud of it. Dennice Richey promised to bring engine and he did it and he got much more respect.
I do proud that I am able to bring to racers something. Now Hellion, it is turn for you to do the same or stop claiming you can do it.
Best regards
Edward

Re: un real
 

Well first off, if you read through the Palmaris thread you will find at least one company that you can contact. If you check who TQed the 2004 Winternats as was previously mentioned (and is common knowledge around this forum) you will see a second.

Secondly, we had our first club round today and Palmaris Ireland teamdrivers qualified 1,2,3 and finished 1st, 4th and 6th against all the latest megas, jp's and Rody's etc.... So we must be doing something right. Myself and one of my colleagues held the 2 fastest laptimes all day. To top that off there were even 2 guys running in the final with Lola shells and 5-port engines against our EFRA legal cars (saloon shells) and engines (3-port 7mm crank restriction). I guess Ed must be doing something right.

It was allready ended, you're the one that came back on and continued insulting and calling Ed names.

Well, we were not siting here waiting for you to mouth off. We have better things to do. Its easy to sit behind a keyboard and act all tough and call people names, and say I can do this and I can do that. Well, Ed said I can do this engine and he did, so if you talk the talk, you better walk the walk, HELLNO.