Disc spring as Centax clutch spring ?
 

I have heard some people are running disc springs as clutch springs. They should give a more contant (less temperature sensitive) clutch and by using more discs on each other it is possible to controll the strength.
http://www.schnorr.de/en/germany/pro.../disc-springs/

Anyone with experience ?

I also found the same kind of springs to give a pre-tension on bearings, sounds like an idea to use is as shim to fill up the end play.
http://www.schnorr.de/en/germany/pro...disc-spring-k/

More info:
http://www.schnorr.de/uploads/media/handbuch_en.pdf

These type of springs are also known as 'Belleville' springs.
We use them in formula cars in the front anti rollbar to change the stiffness.
The possibilities are hugh because you can change stiffness by changing the orientation of the rings or by changing the amount of preload.
I think it is defiantly worth to test it.

If you could get the proper size, let me know I think I want to try them aswell.
It should be a direct fit if you would use 4-5 rings depending the orientation.

<<>> This would be a stiff setting.
<><> This would be a soft setting.

The last link has also a catalog inside, I believe the size of the flywheel nut is 10mm and they have rings in 10.2 x 20 in several thickness.

I think I will call the large hardware store "the brothers Kruyt" in Leiderdorp to see if they have them.

I have use them before in different applications, they are neat and can be used with different thickness shims to add preload too. The only thing is i had a few of them flatten out and loose their springiness over time. These were only about .015'' thick. I think it is great for a centax.

I definitely think it's worth experimenting with. Could work brilliantly.

I've been runninf these belleville washer for most of last season and this one.

This setup is very consistant and easy to adjust.

We run twelve washers, always back to back and nose to nose like this:
)()()()()(

I am using the red shoe and a bell gap of 0.6mm.

The German Serpent Importer sells them as a kit.

I did go to the site of 2-speed but could not find them.
With google I did find this:
http://www.rctek.com/cars/pb/dart/mo...de_clutch.html
http://www.rctek.com/technical/fixin...e_washers.html

Yep, there web site is ancient :-)

If you really want to try this setup, I can order this washer setup for you.

Stefan, thanx for the offer but I have already found many producers in Holland and my sponsor is operating in this world so it shouldn't be a problemto order some examples.

But I like to know the dimensions of the ones you have. So far I can tell I need the 10.2 x 20mm but there are to many different thickness to get.

http://www.amatec.nl/?p=webshop&pg=schotelveren_a
(11 cent a piece.....)

http://www.lesjofors.nl/

http://www.alcomex.nl/Schotelveren_2...0NL-2005-5.pdf

http://www.multicomponents.nl/schotelveren.php

http://www.despiraal.nl/cms/producten/schotelveren/

http://www.mubea.nl/

http://www.roveron.nl/veren/schotelveren

By the way, never thought there was a bigscale Centax clutch, I did send the link to a friend who is busy with a bigscale project.

I also want to experiment with a broken down spring and a O ring. When the springs reaches its limit the O ring can go a little further. Its just a thought now though.

It's available here now:

http://www.smg-speedshop.de/shop/mai...&items_id=2864

Thanx, it looks good and a reasonable price. Do you know which thickness is used?

I am currently running the Orion square spring. Athough it is still running great it seems it is loosing strength already from the beginning.

Hi Roelof,

these belleville washers are (unfortunately) not available in the correct size.
The have to be machined to fit into our clutches.
I have, like you, searched the net for the right size washers, they are not available.
If they were standard size, I would not offer them in my shop for that prize.

Also, they are stacked in different thicknesses.
2-Speed put a lot of thought into this.

Clear talk. I will do some messurements and see what is needed. Probebly I will order a set to give it a try.

As mentioned my sponsor is in the world of metal, he has a small machine factory and all kind of contacts so he can arrange to make standard rings to the right size of maybe he can let them made on the right size.

Funny to see that this seems to work very good and no RC car manufacturer is making it except that 5th scale thing where regarding RCTEK says a normal spring works better.

Roelof,

Joey (and others) tested it ;)

He (they) did not notice any difference or any improvement in laptimes, tuning takes a bit more time...

At the end we ditched it, reason? ... Too expencive compared to a simple spring.

Tomorrow (if my free afternoon is approved) I will go to one of the mentioned spring suppliers to get some information about springs. I had some nice email contact with them and they will give me some advice. I will take an engine with the clutch and some different springs with me, even the Orion square spring which still does give amazing performances.

By the way, is there a list of the clutch springs and their specs (force/distance) to be found?

I did go to the spring supplier and had some interesting talk.

I just got 3 different discs of 8.2 x 15 in 0.6, 0.7 and 0.8 mm thickness. I grinded down the 0.6 discs to a diameter of 12.2 mm and they do fit.
It seems that only the nut has to be tighten so no real pe-tension is needed.
I do not come to 12 discs, it fits but it is very difficult to screw on the nut.

Man those things look thick. Probably won't be able to run much gap or you will bottom the springs and have no clutch.

11 springs just have to handle 0.7mm, that is about 0.065mm per spring.

The original 15mm wide springs may handle 0.3mm per spring, from what I have taken off they still should handle 0.2mm per spring.

As mentioned I probebly do not need to give much pre-tension what will let the spring on its strength.

By the way, do not het fooled by the thickness of 2 discs against each other: () , There where they touch each other it seems thick.

I am amazed!

We did do some testing today and one of the tests was changing to these discs but due rain and thunder we could not drive on the track.

On the table in the pits we could feel the clutch. It has a better/higher engage point and the moment of slip is short but controlable.

Next time we will see houw it runs on the track.

Why is higher better? For some engines it is worse...
Just try the Shepherd spring 610407 combined with the light weight weights. 80% of all top-drivers do. You will have the possibility to have a better engage without slip and with or without higher rpm. And that for less then half of the price...

If this would be better, it would be adopted by the top-drivers long time ago.

And why is the Shepherd spring most used? Because it is the hardest spring to find in the world of RC racing.
Now I have a 88 cent costing spring I can renew every race if needed and so far I can see working better than all others I have tried.

Beside that all, you have tried is as you said, so you also have the urge to try something when you see it. What parts manufacturers show us and sell us does not have to be the best options. I now know for sure if you want a good spring that will not loose its strength by the influence of the pre-tension and heat it will cost you some money because the expensive materials.

And do you know what is fun with this spring?
With combaning thicker and thinner rings as parallel and serie stacking you can change the working

Yes we have and it works ;) 88 cent (1 USD) x 11? The good springs for 4,30 Euro will not loose its strength, we use them the whole year. Beside that, changing the working has also something to do with the shoe, weights, gap, engine etc... now you add one more dependency and more cost.

It is always fun to try something new, this just does not add vallue.

8 cents a disk !!!! But want to go to the RVS version costing 40 cents a disc which is more stable in wear off tension and less influence of heat.

And that is not up to you to tell me but for me to find out if you are right or not as you were so wrong with the DAX suspension..... ;)

Its my personal opinion Roelof :D ... What did DAX bring you in results? Who adopted it?

..

I really hate that argument. So you're saying only the "pros" are smart enough to come up with something better?

So many of the biggest advancements in auto racing technology did NOT come from some billion dollar corporation but instead they came from some backyard garage tinkerer trying to figure out a neat way to outrun his buddies.

People like Smokey Yunick, Jim Hall, Collin Chapman, Dan Gurney, Don Garlitts all made their names by figuring out how to build a better mousetrap.

Maybe this will turn out to be a failure, but we often learn more from our failures than from our successes.

Yes! Just had a look at teh EC 2010, nobody with discs, Dax or what ever....

:nod: Straight to the point :sneaky: How is it going Pieter?

DAX I can imagine because not a lot of people are modifying cars than only other brand parts. But have you seen all 80 clutches what kind of springs they are using and even if there are no discs how sure are you of the used springs and all other parts if they are to get for the normal drivers?

Hey Sam! I can better ask you this question, I think.... everything well? Recovery going OK?

Roelof I think its a beautiful thing how you share your hobby on rctech. I have learned from you and many other people on here.

Hey I do not state that Roelof should not share his initiatives, his work is good and sometimes it helps others. Roelof is al least somebody who thinks creative.

But... we live in a democratic world where everybody can give his opinion, good or bad.

The belleville setup definately works and it gives you the most consitant clutch I have seen so far.
I think you would be amazed how many top guys are using these.

They just can't tell, since they are supposed to run "stock" cars.:nod:

The greatest thing about this is, that noone is forcing nobody to use it;)

Thanx, but this is not innovative but just something I have seen and wanted to try.

Maybe we will test it on the track next weekend. Just the feeling of it was very good with the 0.5mm discs but I have also 0.7mm which has twice the strenth and 0.8mm which has 3 times the strenth of the 0.5mm. They had only the plain steel discs which hold their specs up to 80 degrees celcius so I was told.

I think with the 0.5mm discs 10 pieces are enough to give enough room for the tension nut. The thicker discs will be milled to the right size to give it a try so we know what to use.

All about these springs can be found in here:
http://www.schnorr.com/docs/Handbook.pdf
Interesting is how you can change the character of the spring, with 10 discs you can try several things to get the best out of it

My sponsor was also amazed and when we have tested all sizes I think he will order several hundreds and put them on a bar to machine them to the right size.

Seem that shepherd spring it a popular choice overseas?

Does anyone have part number as two spring are listed? One for vcc clutch and second xhard for v10.

Thanks

Jamie

The secret is out so I'll come clean :lol:. The Shephard spring is the hardest and longest spring out there, and it's the cheapest. P.m me and I'll get you the part number. Don't be a stranger at the next race, stop by and get your interview :nod:. Oh, I should have one new left over in my parts bag. Do you know where I can get a conrod for a Ninja MR on road 21?

Thanks Walo.

Rod going to be tough..best luck is ebay or hong kong like rc mushroom.

No interviews for me...I am famous/infamous enough already :lol:. j/k.

Jamie

Drifting off.....

I have read somewhere in the offroad part on this forum that the Technopower rod is the same.....

Ontopic: I believe the partnumber was already given bij Sorber on page 2 of this topic.