WERKS clutch - set up
05-03-2016, 04:14 AM
#91
Ah, your running one of those! You know I had actually never seen "the red one" before until recently when I took a look at one. Compliments to them, it takes a pretty bold company to try and copy someones product not just once but twice!!!
Coming from a company who's entire existence is based on taking components from a certain companies existing engine and just swapping them around, changing the cooling head color, calling them their own design and throwing a bunch of money out there to get team drivers I should not be surprised lol. I especially like how they released an updated version of their clutch a while ago with an new top plate to adjust spring tension lol, wonder who came up with that idea
The funniest part though is that they messed up, so I guess the expression that "he who laughs last laughs best" truly applies in this situation! We've had quite a few drivers of that company that makes that red colored clutch and engines in Europe switch over to our engines in the last 4-5 months and in testing they've all complained that the red colored copy of our clutch bogs the engine down excessively so none of them use it because they hate the feel of it
It's a clutch and it engages the engine so I guess you could say it works, it just does not work the way it is supposed to be or I should probably say the way that we designed it to lol! Toss it in the trash, it's junk and another shining example of what Go and several of the other Asian engine manufacturers quickly learned a while back which is that it is relatively easy to copy someones design, it's a whole lot harder to figure out someones metallurgy! I'm happy to say that the key to the performance and feel of a clutch is the specific material that the clutch shoes are made out of
Something that we spent a whole lot of time testing and developing and which makes our clutch what it is!
Coming from a company who's entire existence is based on taking components from a certain companies existing engine and just swapping them around, changing the cooling head color, calling them their own design and throwing a bunch of money out there to get team drivers I should not be surprised lol. I especially like how they released an updated version of their clutch a while ago with an new top plate to adjust spring tension lol, wonder who came up with that idea The funniest part though is that they messed up, so I guess the expression that "he who laughs last laughs best" truly applies in this situation! We've had quite a few drivers of that company that makes that red colored clutch and engines in Europe switch over to our engines in the last 4-5 months and in testing they've all complained that the red colored copy of our clutch bogs the engine down excessively so none of them use it because they hate the feel of it
It's a clutch and it engages the engine so I guess you could say it works, it just does not work the way it is supposed to be or I should probably say the way that we designed it to lol! Toss it in the trash, it's junk and another shining example of what Go and several of the other Asian engine manufacturers quickly learned a while back which is that it is relatively easy to copy someones design, it's a whole lot harder to figure out someones metallurgy! I'm happy to say that the key to the performance and feel of a clutch is the specific material that the clutch shoes are made out of Something that we spent a whole lot of time testing and developing and which makes our clutch what it is!There's a fair bit more to them than just a cooling head, and in my experience one of the highest quality engines I ever ran, in multiple ways. Also, the dude who just picks stuff and slaps them together is the son of the dude who basically invented these engines, so I'm certain if he wanted to manufacture 100% in house, he could.
Also you've never seen the red clutch before but are surprised someone didn't know an engine called b5 existed?
05-03-2016, 11:14 AM
#92
I think that history shows that the vast majority of famous and accomplished people ended up with offspring that were never able to match the accomplishments of their parents but certainly attempted to and/or were able to capitalize on the "prestige" associated with their name. Imho a person’s ability to do something is predominately based on their direct involvement with, experience and knowledge of that thing. Care to educate us on said persons responsibilities within the fathers company?
In regards to manufacturing 100% in house that is easier said than done. It is tremendously expensive and difficult to make these products. The GRP brothers attempted to take a lot of that in house with the engine program that he "consulted" on with them like the case casting and basic machining. The hardest part the P/S machining and grinding was still outsourced but I was quite impressed by their facility when I went there. Unfortunately within a few years it all went up in flames when the facility burned down in a mysterious fire.
Engines though are a completely different thing. First comparatively there are not that many out there, second while the ranks seem to be increasing continually there are not a lot of "established" brands that have been on the market for a long time. Third the B5 engine completely shook up the market when it was released as it was the first sub $200 Italian made racing engine that you could buy when other comparable engines were in the $300-$400 range and because of that it became one of the best selling off-road engines here in the US for several years. It is imho highly unlikely that anyone especially someone manufacturing engines that looks at the US as a potential market (which is every single engine manufacturer as the US has been the largest market for off-road basically since the start) does not know what is selling here. When the issues with the B5 name occurred back in the day it was really easy to find out what was selling. All you had to do back then was go to the Tower or A-main site and look up a category i.e. 1/8 buggies or .21 engines. They don't do this anymore but both of their sites used to list the top 10 selling products in the category you searched. If you looked up .21 engines the B5 was one of the top 3 selling engines on A-main for 2-3 years back then.
05-03-2016, 04:53 PM
#93
Agree with most of what you are saying mate, but as you say manufacturingi s only done in house by a few everyone else out sources, I think that's the case with werks too yes? But saying that no other work is put in except to mix and match parts and then pay high profile drivers to sell them seems a bit below the belt, even in the consumer only realm. i've tried numerous engines and still stand by my claim that the reds were definitely on the higher end of quality, possibly at the top, also the only engine that never flamed out on me not once and didn't benefit from sealing against air leaks (where my top end nova did need it)
Also on the point about one brand copying another, weren't reds one of the first in recent times to bring out a "smooth" 7 port designed for buggies on lower traction? Now I see other vendors bringing them out with similar descriptions...
As I said, I run a werks clutch and believe it's one of the best I've tried, and as you point out, this is all my opinion.
Also on the point about one brand copying another, weren't reds one of the first in recent times to bring out a "smooth" 7 port designed for buggies on lower traction? Now I see other vendors bringing them out with similar descriptions...
As I said, I run a werks clutch and believe it's one of the best I've tried, and as you point out, this is all my opinion.
05-03-2016, 06:36 PM
#94
Correct manufacturing is only done in house by a few and everyone else outsources. This imho had in the past never been a problem because those few that did outsource back in the days i.e. JP, RB, us (Werks) and then shortly afterwards Orion all made our own designs. So engines were unique and different. Nowadays you can buy 5 of the same engines that all come from the same factory, have a different brand on them and a different colored cooling head. Pull the engines apart and check the port and crank timing etc. and they are all identical! That is what I'm talking about and what I take issue with. Either that or the engine has the sleeve from the factory's own brand engine model ABC from 3 years ago with the crank from the factory's own brand engine model GHI from 2 years ago put in a different looking case with a different color cooling head and is now a brand new engine lol. So it's no longer about who actually "makes" the best products, it's more about who "markets" their product the best!
As far as Red's being one of the first in recent times to bring out a "smooth" 7 port design for buggies on lower traction I don't know if I'd agree with that. Several brands have been selling 7 port engines for a while now, heck we were selling our B7, 7 port buggy engine before there was even a Red's company and it's allways been designed to be smooth with good mid to top end. It's kind of one of the common performance characteristics of most 7 port engine designs the last 20 years or so. Can a company possibly "spin it" to look like they started this revolution in engine design lol, yes I guess they could. Then again if you are very familiar with different engine models and knew what you were looking at if you took that "smooth" 7 port engine apart you might also find that it's actualy a 7 port on-road engine from not too long ago just in a different case with a different colored cooling head on it lol which is the whole thing that I've been talking about. People in the industry know that this type of stuff is going on and while they generally will not talk about it they do frown upon it. Consumers for the most part have no clue and just get swept up in the marketing & hype.
Again though what I'm doing is voicing opinon based on knowledge of some facts. Others may not see any of this as a problem and they are entitled to that opinion. I just have a certain level of I guess you can call it standards or ethics that I try to live by and it bothers me and unfortunately I'm a little outspoken which at times can offend people a little. But I think that most people that either know me or have followed my posts on the forums for a while know that for the most part I'm pretty level headed and honest about things.
As far as Red's being one of the first in recent times to bring out a "smooth" 7 port design for buggies on lower traction I don't know if I'd agree with that. Several brands have been selling 7 port engines for a while now, heck we were selling our B7, 7 port buggy engine before there was even a Red's company and it's allways been designed to be smooth with good mid to top end. It's kind of one of the common performance characteristics of most 7 port engine designs the last 20 years or so. Can a company possibly "spin it" to look like they started this revolution in engine design lol, yes I guess they could. Then again if you are very familiar with different engine models and knew what you were looking at if you took that "smooth" 7 port engine apart you might also find that it's actualy a 7 port on-road engine from not too long ago just in a different case with a different colored cooling head on it lol which is the whole thing that I've been talking about. People in the industry know that this type of stuff is going on and while they generally will not talk about it they do frown upon it. Consumers for the most part have no clue and just get swept up in the marketing & hype.
Again though what I'm doing is voicing opinon based on knowledge of some facts. Others may not see any of this as a problem and they are entitled to that opinion. I just have a certain level of I guess you can call it standards or ethics that I try to live by and it bothers me and unfortunately I'm a little outspoken which at times can offend people a little. But I think that most people that either know me or have followed my posts on the forums for a while know that for the most part I'm pretty level headed and honest about things.
Last edited by Werks; 05-03-2016 at 06:48 PM.
05-03-2016, 07:30 PM
#95
Ok I see what your point was, tbh it doesn't bother me that the 7 port comes from on road, actually on their site it recommends an on road pipe (2113) as one of the exhausts to use. Really doubt anyone can claim anything as new in rc at the moment and foreseeable future really, " New " buggies always cop it, so I can see why engine vendors try to reinvent their stuff, but really the clutch copying thing is akin to Mugen getting on here and spraying all the buggies that use similar or same front ends. Really as an end user all I really care about is how good the product is not where came from (within reason) so I guess my reaction reflects that. Still, a bonito 7 port definitely isn't smooth in a buggy
05-04-2016, 01:13 AM
#96
Tech Addict
ron, thanks for being real and some good insides here! very well said and much respect for doing that.
i used to do the same with my partner at the times we did our own fuel.
people just don´t want to here the simple truth, they want to keep following the hype!
every year the wheel is re-invented of course from a "luxury ALL NEW bl bla"
it´s getting ridiculous already, like the smartphone/cellphone market. "you need a new one every year, the current one is useless by that moment the new one hits the market" that evil voice keeps telling us haha
long time ago i understood why you ron do NOT bring a new engine every 12 month, because there simply is nothing new to bring all the time!!
end of story.
as me, fuel manufacturer for myself i LOL everytime someone brings a "NEW FORMULA, BETTER, MORE POWER, COOLER, STABLE IDLE bla bla to the table every year"
wake up people.
i used to do the same with my partner at the times we did our own fuel.
people just don´t want to here the simple truth, they want to keep following the hype!
every year the wheel is re-invented of course from a "luxury ALL NEW bl bla"
it´s getting ridiculous already, like the smartphone/cellphone market. "you need a new one every year, the current one is useless by that moment the new one hits the market" that evil voice keeps telling us haha
long time ago i understood why you ron do NOT bring a new engine every 12 month, because there simply is nothing new to bring all the time!!
end of story.
as me, fuel manufacturer for myself i LOL everytime someone brings a "NEW FORMULA, BETTER, MORE POWER, COOLER, STABLE IDLE bla bla to the table every year"
wake up people.
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