Arrow Racing GTR .21 Engine Thread
03-23-2011 | 11:06 AM
#47
Wow, I actually agree with Ron on this one. That never happens.
I'm not a fan of copy-cats. But hey, it is an obsolete design anyhow. Should run great, but why not buy the genuine OS of a newer design for a couple extra bucks?
I'm not a fan of copy-cats. But hey, it is an obsolete design anyhow. Should run great, but why not buy the genuine OS of a newer design for a couple extra bucks?
03-23-2011 | 11:11 AM
#48
Tech Addict
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 654
Man if they could get those dern os to last more than 3-4 gal that would be nice. When people buy a os they think there getting a good long lasting moter but that is not the case. I ran os for a couple of years that was enough for me lol.
03-23-2011 | 11:19 AM
#49
I don't think there is any debating that the v-spec had a crappy crank that didn't last long, but even with that said, I've gotten 8 out of a v-spec with it's original crank. It is all in how you treat them and what you put through them.
03-23-2011 | 11:48 AM
#51
Tech Master
iTrader: (53)
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,986
At the end of the day morally we all have to decide how we want to conduct our business. People always seem to fall back on the OS/Mugen example etc. forgetting that the difference is that Mugen contacted OS and had them develop an alternative version of and existing engine for them which they purchased from OS, the company that designed and developed the original engine. This is again completely different than a company in Taiwan copying someones engine design, producing it their self and putting their own name on it.
The fact that this may or may not happen with cars or tires all the time still does not make the behavior any more palatable. Nor I should say should it make it any more acceptable to those of us in the industry with companies that invest our time and money in the development of our products. I've watched what you have done over the years with the development of your dyno etc. and this has taken time, money and a lot of effort, something that I feel you should be congratulated for. I also have spoken in the past to some of the mag people you were involved with and they indicated to me that you also sold some of them (and I was also thinking about buying one a couple of years ago). If a company in asia copied your dyno and sold it for 1/2 the price and called it the Y-Dyno I would be sitting here saying the same thing about how that is not correct and have the exact same mentality about defending your product. Now if the Y-dyno was a proprietary design and something developed in house by those people or you licensed your design to them, well that would be a totally different thing.
The bottom line is that whether we realize it or not providing any type of support to these type of companies and their products legitimizes their actions. Something that morally I think that we should have an obligation not to do. At the end of the day a fake OS engine is still a fake OS engine. Just like a fake Rolex is still a fake Rolex and a fake Mona Lisa painting is still a fake Mona Lisa painting no matter what type of spin we put on it.
On a side note also I'm not attacking you, I was just voicing my feelings on this. As mentioned I've watched the stuff that you have done over the years and although I've never spoken with you in person I have a lot of respect for what you have done including in my opinion developing the first legitimate dyno system for micro-engines. You are a prime example of the fact that if you have an idea and are willing to put a lot of effort, time and dedication into it you can pretty much accomplish whatever you want. I said I was disappointed because to me companies like the one we are now discussing represent the exact opposite of that mentality, spend zero time, effort or dedication just buy one of the better items that you can find and copy it. Is this really something that we should be supporting even if in the end the product works?
The fact that this may or may not happen with cars or tires all the time still does not make the behavior any more palatable. Nor I should say should it make it any more acceptable to those of us in the industry with companies that invest our time and money in the development of our products. I've watched what you have done over the years with the development of your dyno etc. and this has taken time, money and a lot of effort, something that I feel you should be congratulated for. I also have spoken in the past to some of the mag people you were involved with and they indicated to me that you also sold some of them (and I was also thinking about buying one a couple of years ago). If a company in asia copied your dyno and sold it for 1/2 the price and called it the Y-Dyno I would be sitting here saying the same thing about how that is not correct and have the exact same mentality about defending your product. Now if the Y-dyno was a proprietary design and something developed in house by those people or you licensed your design to them, well that would be a totally different thing.
The bottom line is that whether we realize it or not providing any type of support to these type of companies and their products legitimizes their actions. Something that morally I think that we should have an obligation not to do. At the end of the day a fake OS engine is still a fake OS engine. Just like a fake Rolex is still a fake Rolex and a fake Mona Lisa painting is still a fake Mona Lisa painting no matter what type of spin we put on it.
On a side note also I'm not attacking you, I was just voicing my feelings on this. As mentioned I've watched the stuff that you have done over the years and although I've never spoken with you in person I have a lot of respect for what you have done including in my opinion developing the first legitimate dyno system for micro-engines. You are a prime example of the fact that if you have an idea and are willing to put a lot of effort, time and dedication into it you can pretty much accomplish whatever you want. I said I was disappointed because to me companies like the one we are now discussing represent the exact opposite of that mentality, spend zero time, effort or dedication just buy one of the better items that you can find and copy it. Is this really something that we should be supporting even if in the end the product works?
I agree with your statement 100% But you posting that makes me ask the following
#1 A small startup company finds a new product that is designed by someone else. They take this product to the top selling aftermarket product in that category in the US. This company also uses its own money and time to promote the original product throughout the world lining up many Distros with contacts they know in the industry.
Then comes along a more well known company that received the clutches because the first company asked the MFG to send their driver one because they wanted to sponsor said driver. Then big company uses its might (I will not say what I was told) to get that same MFG to go against the agreement they had with the first company as far as sole rights to distribute in North America because the MFG is scared (For some reason) that the bigger company will send the product to say for example China to have it copied or maybe to Italy.....
How does this relate and how do you feel about the bigger company moving in on the smaller one with those tactics?
#2 I think Mr. Fioroni brought this up in another forum and I can quote it but that would take too much time. What about the Centax Clutch.... Isnt the Fioroni the origional? Also cooling heads... Wasn’t Fioroni the first one to start drilling them? If I recall these are two things that one company took credit for designing or making first then Fioroni Corrected them with factual release/design dates?
#3 Last one was credit for Carbon Clutches and Multi Weight flywheels... Hmmm Think I have emails from 2009 April asking for these things.. 3 Different weights to be exact.
Again, Please understand my candor when asking these questions but it seemed like your first post was the Pot calling the Kettle black.
03-23-2011 | 12:08 PM
#53
Tech Master
iTrader: (47)
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,807
From: Virginia
Ron,
I agree with your statement 100% But you posting that makes me ask the following
#1 A small startup company finds a new product that is designed by someone else. They take this product to the top selling aftermarket product in that category in the US. This company also uses its own money and time to promote the original product throughout the world lining up many Distros with contacts they know in the industry.
Then comes along a more well known company that received the clutches because the first company asked the MFG to send their driver one because they wanted to sponsor said driver. Then big company uses its might (I will not say what I was told) to get that same MFG to go against the agreement they had with the first company as far as sole rights to distribute in North America because the MFG is scared (For some reason) that the bigger company will send the product to say for example China to have it copied or maybe to Italy.....
How does this relate and how do you feel about the bigger company moving in on the smaller one with those tactics?
#2 I think Mr. Fioroni brought this up in another forum and I can quote it but that would take too much time. What about the Centax Clutch.... Isnt the Fioroni the origional? Also cooling heads... Wasn’t Fioroni the first one to start drilling them? If I recall these are two things that one company took credit for designing or making first then Fioroni Corrected them with factual release/design dates?
#3 Last one was credit for Carbon Clutches and Multi Weight flywheels... Hmmm Think I have emails from 2009 April asking for these things.. 3 Different weights to be exact.
Again, Please understand my candor when asking these questions but it seemed like your first post was the Pot calling the Kettle black.
I agree with your statement 100% But you posting that makes me ask the following
#1 A small startup company finds a new product that is designed by someone else. They take this product to the top selling aftermarket product in that category in the US. This company also uses its own money and time to promote the original product throughout the world lining up many Distros with contacts they know in the industry.
Then comes along a more well known company that received the clutches because the first company asked the MFG to send their driver one because they wanted to sponsor said driver. Then big company uses its might (I will not say what I was told) to get that same MFG to go against the agreement they had with the first company as far as sole rights to distribute in North America because the MFG is scared (For some reason) that the bigger company will send the product to say for example China to have it copied or maybe to Italy.....
How does this relate and how do you feel about the bigger company moving in on the smaller one with those tactics?
#2 I think Mr. Fioroni brought this up in another forum and I can quote it but that would take too much time. What about the Centax Clutch.... Isnt the Fioroni the origional? Also cooling heads... Wasn’t Fioroni the first one to start drilling them? If I recall these are two things that one company took credit for designing or making first then Fioroni Corrected them with factual release/design dates?
#3 Last one was credit for Carbon Clutches and Multi Weight flywheels... Hmmm Think I have emails from 2009 April asking for these things.. 3 Different weights to be exact.
Again, Please understand my candor when asking these questions but it seemed like your first post was the Pot calling the Kettle black.
03-23-2011 | 12:51 PM
#54
Werks/Ron i didn't design the X-Dyno, that would be Brian Kinney. And people have been trying to copying the X-Dyno for years... I see a few in this industry building dynos using the same software and a similar design as the X-Dyno "Inertia Engine dyno" and although its a dyno for R&D it still doesn't put out the same numbers that we all are used to seeing out of the original X-Dyno, as they have to set there dyno up on there own to read how they want it to read. With my X-Dyno its a production dyno which is locked down and i can not change the settings on how the dyno reads. And honestly people building these dynos for there own R&D and knowledge is fine with me and i commend them for doing so and wanting to learn more about there trade and put out a good end product to there customers. You don't see me attacking others dynos when i see higher #s and different curves from there dyno then what the original X-Dyno puts out, as at the end of the day its just a tool and when used properly can be a VERY beneficial tool.
03-23-2011 | 01:24 PM
#55
Tech Master
iTrader: (53)
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,986
Guess what.... Blue and Red
Ron,
I agree with your statement 100% But you posting that makes me ask the following
#1 A small startup company finds a new product that is designed by someone else. They take this product to the top selling aftermarket product in that category in the US. This company also uses its own money and time to promote the original product throughout the world lining up many Distros with contacts they know in the industry.
Then comes along a more well known company that received the clutches because the first company asked the MFG to send their driver one because they wanted to sponsor said driver. Then big company uses its might (I will not say what I was told) to get that same MFG to go against the agreement they had with the first company as far as sole rights to distribute in North America because the MFG is scared (For some reason) that the bigger company will send the product to say for example China to have it copied or maybe to Italy.....
How does this relate and how do you feel about the bigger company moving in on the smaller one with those tactics?
#2 I think Mr. Fioroni brought this up in another forum and I can quote it but that would take too much time. What about the Centax Clutch.... Isnt the Fioroni the origional? Also cooling heads... Wasn’t Fioroni the first one to start drilling them? If I recall these are two things that one company took credit for designing or making first then Fioroni Corrected them with factual release/design dates?
#3 Last one was credit for Carbon Clutches and Multi Weight flywheels... Hmmm Think I have emails from 2009 April asking for these things.. 3 Different weights to be exact.
Again, Please understand my candor when asking these questions but it seemed like your first post was the Pot calling the Kettle black.
I agree with your statement 100% But you posting that makes me ask the following
#1 A small startup company finds a new product that is designed by someone else. They take this product to the top selling aftermarket product in that category in the US. This company also uses its own money and time to promote the original product throughout the world lining up many Distros with contacts they know in the industry.
Then comes along a more well known company that received the clutches because the first company asked the MFG to send their driver one because they wanted to sponsor said driver. Then big company uses its might (I will not say what I was told) to get that same MFG to go against the agreement they had with the first company as far as sole rights to distribute in North America because the MFG is scared (For some reason) that the bigger company will send the product to say for example China to have it copied or maybe to Italy.....
How does this relate and how do you feel about the bigger company moving in on the smaller one with those tactics?
#2 I think Mr. Fioroni brought this up in another forum and I can quote it but that would take too much time. What about the Centax Clutch.... Isnt the Fioroni the origional? Also cooling heads... Wasn’t Fioroni the first one to start drilling them? If I recall these are two things that one company took credit for designing or making first then Fioroni Corrected them with factual release/design dates?
#3 Last one was credit for Carbon Clutches and Multi Weight flywheels... Hmmm Think I have emails from 2009 April asking for these things.. 3 Different weights to be exact.
Again, Please understand my candor when asking these questions but it seemed like your first post was the Pot calling the Kettle black.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werks
... Regarding Fioroni adjustable clutch parts fitting into the Power Clutch, that's interesting I did not know that! We were first to market with this style adjustable clutch and have been selling these since roughly '03 or '04 so I guess they copied us lol ... It's the same with engines, we were the first company to ship production motors with cooling heads drilled for lightening, now every one does it ...
Hi Ron,
maybe your memory need a refresh:
1) Fioroni "Power Clutch" OT-FR60 & FR66 was on the market in 2002, then some Italian competitor companies (you know very well) copy us and sell these as OEM product to Werks and some others in the world for cheap ... that's why our clutch parts are interchangeable with yours ...
2) Fioroni was the FIRST to make Motor Cooling Heads drilled for lightening, also for Werks: OEM with Fioroni own design and just laser engraved for Werks ...
3) Fioroni is FIRST in design for 15 years now: innovative Clutch System, Motor Head, Split Differential Mount and many others option parts that now are STOCK in buggy standard production ...
Everytime we make INNOVATIVE parts the OTHERS copy Fioroni not viceversa!
Have a nice day and sorry for my english,
Vittorio
Option Team by Fioroni
03-23-2011 | 02:03 PM
#56
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,769
Werks/Ron i didn't design the X-Dyno, that would be Brian Kinney. And people have been trying to copying the X-Dyno for years... I see a few in this industry building dynos using the same software and a similar design as the X-Dyno "Inertia Engine dyno" and although its a dyno for R&D it still doesn't put out the same numbers that we all are used to seeing out of the original X-Dyno, as they have to set there dyno up on there own to read how they want it to read. With my X-Dyno its a production dyno which is locked down and i can not change the settings on how the dyno reads. And honestly people building these dynos for there own R&D and knowledge is fine with me and i commend them for doing so and wanting to learn more about there trade and put out a good end product to there customers. You don't see me attacking others dynos when i see higher #s and different curves from there dyno then what the original X-Dyno puts out, as at the end of the day its just a tool and when used properly can be a VERY beneficial tool.
03-23-2011 | 02:44 PM
#57
Tech Master
iTrader: (53)
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,986
I get that and also sorry about misspeaking about the original designer of the x-dyno but I think that you get the point that I was trying to make about how I would also address things if someone (specifically a manufacturer for the purpose of re-selling them) did not build their own but rather exactly copied the dyno system that you use. Also agree that these systems are very beneficial when it comes to development, imho as a consumer I would not deal with a modifier that does not have/use one. In any case I'm going to have to cut this one short so that I can respond to Mr. Anderson's bs.
Please do respond...
If your values were true you would stop importing the Werks Power Clutch as it is an exact COPY of the Fioroni... And Mr Fioroni called you out on that. This is Fact. So you are doing exactly what you say is wrong.
Werks Power Clutch. Copy of Fioroni by another MFG.... Then this MFG that copied it from Fioroni OEMs it for you so you are doing EXACTLY what the Engine companys are doing.
So please show me where my BS is?
03-23-2011 | 03:05 PM
#58
Tech Regular
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 434
From: melb, australia
LOL another copied this/copied that thread with ron/werks .... gunna end up like the other one a few months ago when ron was saying how a certain company straight copyed his engine and called them out saying a "certain ORANGE headed engine " its such a joke ....
03-23-2011 | 04:28 PM
#60
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,769
Ron,
I agree with your statement 100% But you posting that makes me ask the following
#1 A small startup company finds a new product that is designed by someone else. They take this product to the top selling aftermarket product in that category in the US. This company also uses its own money and time to promote the original product throughout the world lining up many Distros with contacts they know in the industry.
Then comes along a more well known company that received the clutches because the first company asked the MFG to send their driver one because they wanted to sponsor said driver. Then big company uses its might (I will not say what I was told) to get that same MFG to go against the agreement they had with the first company as far as sole rights to distribute in North America because the MFG is scared (For some reason) that the bigger company will send the product to say for example China to have it copied or maybe to Italy.....
How does this relate and how do you feel about the bigger company moving in on the smaller one with those tactics?
#2 I think Mr. Fioroni brought this up in another forum and I can quote it but that would take too much time. What about the Centax Clutch.... Isnt the Fioroni the origional? Also cooling heads... Wasn’t Fioroni the first one to start drilling them? If I recall these are two things that one company took credit for designing or making first then Fioroni Corrected them with factual release/design dates?
#3 Last one was credit for Carbon Clutches and Multi Weight flywheels... Hmmm Think I have emails from 2009 April asking for these things.. 3 Different weights to be exact.
Again, Please understand my candor when asking these questions but it seemed like your first post was the Pot calling the Kettle black.
I agree with your statement 100% But you posting that makes me ask the following
#1 A small startup company finds a new product that is designed by someone else. They take this product to the top selling aftermarket product in that category in the US. This company also uses its own money and time to promote the original product throughout the world lining up many Distros with contacts they know in the industry.
Then comes along a more well known company that received the clutches because the first company asked the MFG to send their driver one because they wanted to sponsor said driver. Then big company uses its might (I will not say what I was told) to get that same MFG to go against the agreement they had with the first company as far as sole rights to distribute in North America because the MFG is scared (For some reason) that the bigger company will send the product to say for example China to have it copied or maybe to Italy.....
How does this relate and how do you feel about the bigger company moving in on the smaller one with those tactics?
#2 I think Mr. Fioroni brought this up in another forum and I can quote it but that would take too much time. What about the Centax Clutch.... Isnt the Fioroni the origional? Also cooling heads... Wasn’t Fioroni the first one to start drilling them? If I recall these are two things that one company took credit for designing or making first then Fioroni Corrected them with factual release/design dates?
#3 Last one was credit for Carbon Clutches and Multi Weight flywheels... Hmmm Think I have emails from 2009 April asking for these things.. 3 Different weights to be exact.
Again, Please understand my candor when asking these questions but it seemed like your first post was the Pot calling the Kettle black.
#1 A small startup company (Ascendency Racing)finds a new product that is designed by someone else (JVD). They take this product to the top selling aftermarket product in that category in the US. This company also uses its own money and time to promote the original product throughout the world lining up many Distros with contacts they know in the industry.
Then comes along a more well known company (Werks Racing) that received the clutches because the first company asked the MFG to send their driver one because they wanted to sponsor said driver.
*****So if I'm understanding this correctly you are saying that I received a clutch because you asked JVD to send a clutch to someone that you wanted to sponsor lol! Can you please explain how I would get stuck in the middle of that? I would think that if you wanted to sponsor a driver the normal way for this to happen would be for you to contact them directly, see if they are interested and if so send them one your self since you are in the US rather than have a manufacturer in Europe ship one half way around the world!*****
Then big company (Werks Racing)uses its might (I will not say what I was told) ****please feel free to, I'm quite curious and have nothing to hide*** to get that same MFG to go against the agreement they had with the first company (Ascendency Racing) as far as sole rights to distribute in North America because the MFG is scared (For some reason) that the bigger company (Werks Racing) will send the product to say for example China to have it copied or maybe to Italy.....
How does this relate and how do you feel about the bigger company (Werks Racing) moving in on the smaller one (Ascendanccy Racing) with those tactics?
**So since you asked I'll give you my honest opinion on things. First if you are being told that someone got threatened etc then that is BS, unless your watching Wall Street the movie or something that stuff does not really happen. Second I've never ever heard of a company needing to be "forced" to make money. The reality of the matter if you want my candid answer is that if someone manufacturers a product they are free to sell it to who ever they want to. If they choose to sell it to 2,3 or 15 different companies that it their prerogative and frankly if you have an issue with that then you should man up, stop whining about it and go talk to the company that makes the products. The ultimate decision for a manufacturer to want to sell to multiple players has nothing to do with me, that is a decision that the company that makes the product decides on and is usually based on production capacity and whether or not the original company (in this case yours) is buying enough product to satisfy their volume requirements. So maybe you just needed to buy more?
In any case this is no different than the OS, Mugen, GP scenario that others talk about. GP has an exclusive for the US for OS engines. Mugen contacted OS about selling their engines, OS says we cant sell you OS engines because we have an exclusive with GP but if you are interested and the volume is there we can make a unique OEM product for you which is what they did. Was GP happy, probably not but the product had was different and both companies were smart enough to keep a stable playing field and not start undercutting each other to destroy the market. Something that I will add I made an effort to do also here in the US. We came out with a unique enough product that if you did not continually draw attention to it most people would not even realize that it came from the same facility. Second my predominate interest was in the export market for the product but knowing your activity here in the US and having to offer my stuff globally I purposely set pricing high enough in the US so that dealers would only be able to match your pricing, not undercut it (because I was not trying to push you out), something that I again did not have to do. You had been selling these for a while and had created a good demand for your product so I felt with the matched pricing, people would then have the option to just purchase whatever one they wanted without any financial incentive to go either way. You made the decision to drop your pricing within a week or two, something that you will note that I have not even matched because frankly I think my pricing is fair and frankly I could care the least about what you are doing.
#2 I think Mr. Fioroni brought this up in another forum and I can quote it but that would take too much time. What about the Centax Clutch.... Isnt the Fioroni the origional? Also cooling heads... Wasn’t Fioroni the first one to start drilling them? If I recall these are two things that one company (Werks Racing) took credit for designing or making first then Fioroni Corrected them with factual release/design dates?
****First of all I'm not even sure what any of this has to do with you but to address it again the Centax clutch was not developed by Fioroni, if I'm not mistaken that was developed by Serpent in the '70's or 80's. You are referring to our Power Clutch which is a simplified centax style clutch system which Fioroni has claimed that he was the originator of. My response to that is frankly I do not know. At the time and we are talking 2002 or some time like that Fioroni (the brand) was imported by GS Racing and I was looking for a quality manufacturer to make aftermarket cooling heads for us which lead me to Vittorio who was a friend of Alberto Picco (who's engines we were the US importer for at the time). Vittorio agreed to make aftermarket cooling heads for us which we subsequently sold for several years under the Werks brand (does this kinda remind you of what I talked about in #1?). During the entire time that I was buying aftermarket heads from him we were selling the Power Clutches (which we were buying from another company in Italy) and not once did he mention the fact that it was a copy of anything he developed (and if anything I believe that in one meeting in Italy he might have mentioned that he offered/had one also but we were getting them from the same source so there was no point in him quoting them). Also his importer in the US had never marketed nor sold that type/style clutch system at the time that we introduced ours either. About 2-3 years afterward they did start selling them in the US but I assumed that they (Fioroni) were just buying them from the same source in Italy as we were. So....nothing shocking, underhanded or dastardly in all of that is there!
Now on to the cooling heads and drilling lightening holes in them. Yes as I have also already mentioned in posts before (and I see that you actually took the time to dig up the post by Vittorio lol, you should have also posted by response if you wanted to be fair) Fioroni was that first company to lighten aftermarket cooling heads which were heads that used to sell for $60-$80 a piece! What I claimed (and the only thing that I have ever claimed about this) and is indeed true is that we were the first company to provide lightened cooling heads on our standard production engines. That is right out of the box, you take out your motor and the cooling head is lightened. No one had done this before because the cost to do so was simply considered too high. I took a gamble and spent the extra dollars to get it done on our engines and now everyone does it and it effectively also put an end to aftermarket cooling head business.
So that now addresses all of that, on to #3.
#3 Last one was credit for Carbon Clutches and Multi Weight flywheels... Hmmm Think I have emails from 2009 April asking for these things.. 3 Different weights to be exact.
***Ok, you claim to have sent some e-mails in 2009. It's 2011 and you are still waiting on some of the stuff it seems that we were able to get done in a matter of a few months. What exactly does that show?****
Again, Please understand my candor when asking these questions but it seemed like your first post was the Pot calling the Kettle black.
Jason
***No the pot calling the kettle black is you coming here and questioning me about how I conduct business especially in regards to the clutches in #1 when you just did exactly the same thing (with your recently released Technopower Based Engine) to Tony Newland who is (or I should say was) the Technopower Importer that also supposedly had an exclsive for the US. The difference between you and him is that he handled it with a bit differently in that he did not attempt to run your company though the dirt by making stupid posts talking about and questioning everything that "the other company" (code for your company) has done and stood by what he felt was the appropriate response which was to drop the line.
You might learn something from him and rather than cry out about being wronged maybe what you should do is look at how you are conducting your own businessin the first place. I don't spend a lot of time following what you guys are doing but it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that it is probably not a good idea for you as a manufacturer to sell directly to consumers at a price lower than your dealers are. It's never a good idea to undercut your dealers because if you do why should they even bother carrying your products in the first place? Think about it....
Secondly if you have something to say to me about what I do, be direct about it, drop the "other company" nonsense and say what you have to say. It's a little difficult to sorta kinda half drag someone through the mud so if you are going to do it, at least do it right.
Third, after all of this posting you will note not a single point in your post(s) has anything at all to do with taking a product to Taiwan and having it copied so nothing that you even said no matter how polite your tried to be about it had anything to do with what was being discussed. If you have a beef with me, the way that I do busines or anything else feel free to pick up the phone and call me but in all honesty I think up until now I have been rather respectful of your company and making sure that I did not undercut you on the clutches or anything along those lines, something that I can not say that you did with Tony when you priced your engine what around a hundred bucks below his..... For the rest if you have anything else to say to/debate with me please start a Werks/Ascendancy debate thread or something so this one does not get locked.